famous/infamous relatives, straw-grasping welcome!

My dad used to say "Education is wasted on the young." and now that I'm getting older (if 36 is older) I'm begining to understand what he ment, I didn't use to give a damn about history and now it seems like I can't get enough of it.

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Of course everyone is aware of WWII and all the implications it has for modern Japan, but pre-WWII? Forget about it! I find myself screaming the answers at the TV whenever they do those spot quizzes!!

J-Hulk, some history shows I've seen on TV here state that the Japanese historians' perspective on Pearl Harbor is that it wasn't a surprise attack or unprovoked. One reason for this that I know of is the economic sanctions we had going at the time. Maybe another ( I've never heard anyone mention it specifically ) was the use of American "volunteer" forces like the Flying Tigers, against Japanese forces in Asia without a formal declaration of war on our part.

And, of course, there's the possibility that the movie, "Tora, Tora, Tora" was accurate about the Japanese intention ro formally declare war just minutes before the attack. According to the movie, slow typing and decoding led to the crucial schedule not being met and the declaration being delivered after the attack instead. I don't know how accurate this portrayal was, since I've never seen or heard mention of it anywhere else.

I'm not saying that we deserved the Pearl Harbor attack, I'm just listing possible motivational factors.

One question I have is this. How much of the lack of knowledge ( in the general public, as shown in the TV quizzes you mentioned ) in Japan on the pre-war era is due to the unique cultural pride of the Japanese, and how much was started during the post-war occupation by Americans trying to instill a feeling of shame and dishonor over Pearl Harbor?

Of course, the quiz show participants could just have the same attitude about history as many Americans. "Who cares about a bunvh of old, dead guys?" I've heard this said many, many times over here.

Sage wisdom on that one wibhi2.

Perhaps the similar: "Those who are ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it" may explain why some of us model in the patterns that we do.

I don't do much in the way of WWII stuff, I grew up watching the latter half of the Cold War unfold on the nightly news. I'm very picky about model shopping, and the Eastern European post war stuff catches my attention most often.

I remember being a little kid in the mid 70s and not really understanding the full significance of the latest incident of Canadian Voodoos scrambling to form up on a Bear that came over the Pole, but knowing, if nothing else, it was something to cause apprehension.

I remember the unflattering stereotypes of the former Soviet Union and its people portrayed in Hollywood productions and so forth....

I remember getting to the point of wondering " Come on, this is ridiculous, how bad could they be? They're just people somewhere else in different circumstances, right?"

So began my intrest with things Russian and otherwise Central and Eastern European, absolutely fascinating stuff from many angles.

I've been working on Revell's 1/32 MiG-21 off and on for nearly five years now, the 21 is one of my favorite aircraft and I've lavished more attention on this one than any other model I've had.

Of all the things we seem to repeat from the past, war seems to keep coming up. Hopefully one day we'll work it out of the pattern.

Without understanding the past, one has no concept of the future.

Cool, I'd love to get the info. Maybe some book store around here might have it. History is neat.

madda

Madda,

I have an interesting book on Japanese history at home. I will get the title and author of it and post it for you. I will try to find it tonight and post tomorrow. It was a book that we used in my Japanese history class, so it may be something that you are looking for.

Jerry

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk [b]History and geography seem to be two very weak points for these kids! I don't get the impression they are ashamed at all.

I can't believe it, but I've met fellow college students who have never heard of the Holocaust.

Ironically, I saw the person later on the campus tv channel comparing our president to Hitler.

That's a very thoughtful post, Kugai.

Perhaps the fascination with "enemy" equipment lies in the "danger" element, the "excitement" and "thrill" that goes with the threat. The same reason so many people love sharks (Shark Week on Discovery!) and dinosaurs and whatnot. It could kill you. Is there some kind of strange attraction for us to this kind of danger? Or is it the respect we feel for something we know could easily take us out?

A simpler thought might be just the attraction of the sheer diversity and variety of equipment the enemy used, if we take, say, Germany and Japan in WWII. They just had sooo much stuff! In a thousand different color combinations, too. And some people just say it's "cool." Those guys had cool stuff.

I'm not saying this is how I personally feel (not consciously, anyway!), but it may be true for some people.

I'm afraid my reasons for having so much "enemy" equipment is probably much shallower than all the above. I'm just fascinated by machines, no matter who makes 'em, and I just happen to like the designs the axis powers used. And I like BIG machines, so where'm I gonna turn to? Yup!

Sometimes I get philosophical, look around the room, and say to myself, "everything I've built here was designed to destroy."

Sometimes I tell myself they were designed to protect, but that rationale falls short when I think about the German vehicles. They were designed to conquer.

Shermans and T-34s were designed to protect!

Then I return to normal and get back to work planning my 1/16 Tiger I build!

Very thought-provoking post, Kugai.

James, it's my impression that the young people here, like in the States (my only two experiences!), are simply uninterested in things like history, traditional arts, literature, etc. There are shows on TV lamenting this sad point all the time, with spot quizzes given to high school kids on the street. History and geography seem to be two very weak points for these kids!
I don't get the impression they are ashamed at all.

Of course everyone is aware of WWII and all the implications it has for modern Japan, but pre-WWII? Forget about it! I find myself screaming the answers at the TV whenever they do those spot quizzes!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by BARsrule2 My cousin's camp counsler fought for Israel (Can't remember which! How many have they had?) in one of their wars. One of his squadmates sacrificed himself to save the squad form a grenade. War sucks. BARsrule2

This probably should be under some "OT" thread, but this one brought the following to mind, so I'll post it here.

Please excuse my inserting something that may be considered too political a statement, but maybe the "War sucks" comment has a lot of bearing on the fact that so many patriotic American kitbuilders here have large model collections of "enemy" subjects. Regardless of which side they were on, we modellers seem to pay more respect to former "enemies" as "warriors" than the average person.

As examples, when was the last time you heard something negative said by a modeller about von Richtoven? How irritated are you about the omission of swastika decals in a Messershmitt 109 or Hindenburg kit bacause of advocates for political correctness?

Maybe it's just me due to my upbringing. My father was a WWII veteran who served in the Pacific. He earned a purple heart and other medals while under fire from Japanese soldiers. I don't know the details of why he raised me the way he did, but if I had used the words "Jap" or Nip" to refer to his former enemies, I have no doubt that he would have used his boot to make sure I had to do a headstand to use the bathrooom. Despite the years he spent fighting the Japanese in the Pacific campaign, he believed that I should have some respect for those he fought against and had wounded him.

Maybe my experience is rare, but I'm curious. I have about as many kits for "enemy" aircraft, former and current, as I do American subjects, yet I don't have any illusions about the horrors many of these enemy regimes inflicted on humanity. Why is it that so many of us are patriotic, yet are so eager to include "enemy" subjects in our collections along with those that depict allied aircraft, etc.?

Emphasizing, once again, I don't quite know how to explain my own patterns, so I'm asking for insight from others who do the same.

Thanks in advance for any input on the matter.

My cousin's camp counsler fought for Israel (Can't remember which! How many have they had?) in one of their wars. One of his squadmates sacrificed himself to save the squad form a grenade. War sucks.

BARsrule2

Interesting and rare views from the land of the rising sun.
Thanks for the history lesson fellas.

J-hulk.
I have one question though.
Are the younger people in Japan just not interested in their culturel past or do they seem ashamed of it?

Who opened the gates to the zoo and let these animals out? Run for your life, there are wild animals loose.

Beautiful segue there J-Hulk! I gotta say, there were some really really crafty people throughout history, the amazing thing to me is that so many of them came together at that very time and place. I knew about the policy of keeping the families at Edo, but I didn't know that there was an official name for it. I need to find more books, Japanese history books are a bit hard to find around here, as I'm sure you can imagine. If you've ever read Shogun by James Clavell, I've always assumed that the Daimyo "Toranaga" from the book was supposed to be, or was based on Tokugawa Ieyasu. There was a good bit of authentic history in the book, aside from the fiction. If you haven't read it, it's a great book and story. The story of what happened was based on fact as well, though I forget the actual guy's name just this moment. I think it's pretty neat that you're marrying into the Tokugawas :)

Did I mention that I'm related to Ethan Allen? Not the furniture guy, but the revolutionary war hero.

madda

Ah, I think your right about making the bird want to sing.
Yeah, even here, I find it hard to find anybody interested in discussing Japanese history. Even amongst my Japanese friends! Their parents are usually pretty keen to talk about it, though, and are very appreciative that a non-Japanese like me knows something about their history and culture.

One subject I'm familiar with that never fails to amaze people is the "sankin koutai" system of the Tokugawas, which was essentially a conspiracy perpetrated by the man to keep a brother down. Or, in this case, to keep the Daimyos weak by requiring them to make regular pilgrimmages from their fiefs to Edo, alternating residences every three or four years. Incentive for this was the fact that the Daimyo's families were required to live in Edo, effectively held hostage by the Shogunate. The idea was to keep the Daimyos weak via the incredible expense incurred by shifting his entourage to Edo and back at regular intervals, and of course the tons of gifts that must be presented to the Shogun upon arrival in Edo represented a huge fortune spent as well.
Thus, the Daimyos could not amass enough wealth nor gather enough support in the fiefs (they're not even there half the time!) to pose any serious threat to the centralized Shogunate government. It was also during this time that Japan lost a great many of its castles, as the Shogunate only allowed one castle per fief. I don't recall the figure, but many many castles were dismantled during the 300 year Tokugawa Shogunate.

Which reminds that I'm writing all this because my ex-wife's direct ancestor was Yagyu Jubei, the famous eyepatch-wearing Tokugawa Shogunate Samurai swordsman.


Which is the topic of this thread! Famous relatives!
Sorry for the long historical ramble!!

I'd always heard that Hideyoshi said make the bird want to sing. That man was a true leader if there ever was one. I hadn't heard the one about the pie, but it's a good one. Very apt. It's kinda nice to have someone to rap about with this stuff, nobody that I know has any interest in Japanese history at all. Any time I try to talk about something that went on, I just sorta get tuned out for a bit. They just don't understand I guess. OOh, maybe I'm just a geek.

madda

Hey, Madda!

What was that saying..."Oda Nobunaga gathered the ingredients for a pie, Toyotomi Hideyoshi made it, and Tokugawa Ieyasu ate it." Or something along those lines! Quite descriptive of what went on back then.

What was the bird one...Oh yeah!
The ruthless Nobunaga gave the bird an ultimatum: sing or die.
The pragmatic Hideyoshi insisted on making the bird sing.
The patient Ieyasu simply waited for the bird to decide to sing of its own accord.

Fascinating period of world history, for sure.

QUOTE: Originally posted by james larson I wonder if this is a dig at me??? "Quote by wibbi2" This is a little late in the game, but I never thought Merlin was trying to belittle anyone. If anything I thought it was a very creative piece of writing

Naahhhhh.......just an observation. I really did laugh at Merlin's first post. to this thread

have pick and shovel - will travel

I loved Oda Nobunaga as well, he was brilliant, but a bit too reckless I think. He needed Hideyoshi to calm him down a bit. Shame about the fire really, but then Hideyoshi wouldn't have had the success that he did. I don't know if Nobunaga could have worked Ieyasu to a draw like Hideyoshi did though. If you wanna talk patience though, Tokugawa Ieyasu was simply the king. I always think of the little story about the bird. Good stuff, I love Japanese history, that had to have been one of the most interesting periods in world history. Fascinating.

I wouln't mind building a good model of a castle actually, do you have any pics of them? One might look pretty good sitting on top of my monitor.

madda

QUOTE: I've heard of the Tokugawa, but I kinda lost track of them after Tokugawa Ieasu, he rocked! I'm a bit of a Taiko man myself though, though both those guys were simply amazing. madda

Hey, Madda! There were so many Tokugawas, about the only guy I remember is Ieyasu!
Here in Osaka, Toyotomi Hideyoshi is (was) da man. Out where I lived in Shiga, Oda Nobunaga and Ii Naosuke were da men!

Hey...I never see anything about modeling castles in these forums! There are TONS of great Japanese castle models out there!

I better go start a new post somewhere.
But where???

HULK SMASH!!!



Jus' kiddin', fellas!

Oooooooooooooooo

I'm so scared!

Hey merlin, need to hire a bigger bully?

You guys quit being mean to me or I'm tellin' my Mom...I've got her phone number around here someplace..............

Don't ground him .
Just take away his model glue.

I think it's time we sent Merlin to bed without his supper.

Grounding him won't work. He'll just go work on models.[:0]

As soon as I saw that Merlin had been loose in here again .... just had to pop in and see what kind of trouble he got himself into this time.

QUOTE: Originally posted by james larson Merlin. I did'nt smack you that hard did I???

James

Does THIS answer your question?...

Ya made me cry...I'm now undergoing therapy.
I'm unwanted, unloved, misunderstood and a recovering bedwetter to boot. (okay so maybe I lied about the recovering
part).

Merlin.
I did'nt smack you that hard did I???

My brother, the genealogist, tellsme that mom's family had claim to several thousand acres around Nashville. The claim was challenged and taken to court. Davey Crockett defended us. He/we lost and I aint the squire of Nashville.

Neighbor kid made it to the last cut at running back for the Seattle Seahawks.



I sang with Simon and Garfunkle. There were 20,000 people between us at the time.

Merlin is getting smacked for not showing the proper respect for the seriousness of this subject. Do you think that is an alias for Blackwolfscd? Or are they joined at the wit?