Vietnam Huey

Nice one Rescuehawk i was advised about the cobra company when i first came in here, i will be getting the M60's and mounts for the revell 1/32 huey from them. they look great and the thought of scratch building them is daunting

If anyone is  wanting to build a UH-1C Gunship i can recomend the MRC/Acedemy Models they are 1/35 scale, i have the heavy hog

UH-1C Heavy Hog - Armaments included -  2 x M3 24 Tube Rocket Launcher, 2 x M200 19 pod Rocket Launcher and an M5 Grenade Launcher. 2 x M60 machine guns (no mounts though) 

Also included - Pilot, Copilot, gunner & crew chief.

Academy also do the UH-1C frog (which also comes with the same crew and M60's) but im not sure of the armaments so if anyone has it and could list them that would be good  

MRC/Academy UH-1C Frog kit info... from about 3 posts down.

The UH-1C Frog kit does indeed include the parts for the M134 miniguns and their mounts.  The Frog kit includes all the weapons sprues from their earlier UH-1C kits as well.  You can choose from any combination you like. 

Here is a review from Aircraft Resource Center that shows all the sprues as well.

UH-1B/C weapons load combos.

It is a tall order putting all Huey knowledge in one post.  It is much easier to ask a specific question and get an answer to it.  Otherwise, the post could become huge and be so long as to be too hard to find info in.  I have seen some get really long and are harder to follow than a search of old posts.

I see your point Gino, it could get hard to find what your looking for if everyone posts about hueys here, as a new user i just thought after doing lots of searches and finding many things repeated in the posts ie; M60's, Crew, paint colours and such, that it would make more sense to have one section to scroll through to find the answers and to save you guys from having to repeat yourselves over and over, the last thing i wanted was to complicate things lol

Thanks for the UH-1B/C armament diagram Gino, that'l deffo come in handy. 

Andy,

  In my professional career, I am a Paleontologist.  From my experiences with science, I have learned that there is no better source of information than good old fashioned research.  while the internet is a great source, it is full of bad info as well.  I have been researching the Huey and its many variants for the last year or more.  I want to build a model of my fathers gunship in Vietnam, and I picked his brain first for info.  However, he was an armorer and a doorgunner and didn't know the minutia about each variant and how to distiguish them.  My next stop was referrences.  I have tried to amass all the Huey refs I could find.  Below is a list of the books I have found that may be helpful to you.  If any of you guys out there know of any others, please post them here so I can try to find them.  By the way, to all you guys who were in Vietnam, Thanks for your service and for helping those of us who want to keep your history alive.

 The Refs:

     Bell Uh-1 Huey "Slicks" 1962-7, Osprey Publishing, Chris Bishop, ISBN 1-84176-632-1, 48 pp.  Mostly general info on the Huey with very little info on armament.  Good starting place, though.

      UH-1 iroquois/AH-1 Hueycobra, Modern Combat Aircraft 19, Jerry Scutts, ISBN 0-7110-1416-7, 112 pp.  I haven't totally finished reading this one yet, but it has a lot of info on the Hueys used by Army, Navy and Marines through 1984.

    Huey, Modern Military Aircraft, Squadron/Signal, Lou Drendel, 1983, Couldn't find ISBN, 63 pp.  Of course, squadron/Signal is the BIG  name in refs for the modeller and this book is no exception.  There is info on each of the Huey variants up until '83 and 7 pages of color photos that include a good closeup of a huey instrument panel and engine.  Also, there are personal accounts of flying hueys and flying in hueys during the Vietnam War.  I really like this book as a general ref for Vietnam Hueys.

    Vietnam Choppers-Helicopters in Battle 1950-1975, ospey Publishing, Simon Dunstan, ISBN 1-84176-796-4, 207 pp.  If you ever wondered how almost every helicopter around figured into the Vietnam War, this is your book.  Lots of pictures and historical accounts of the ways each type of chopper was used in battle.

    Airmobile-the Helicopter War in Vietnam, Sqadron/Signal, Jim Mesko, 1984, couldn't find ISBN, 63 pp. Similar to the obove title in its coverage, but with many more closeup photos of interest to the modeler and 8 pages of color images.

    Bent and Battered Rotors volume 3, Sqaudron/ Signal, Wayne Mutza, 1993, ISBN 0-89747-306-X, 56 pp. Packed with photos of crashed helicopters with 8 color pages.  This is the ref for diorama makers who want to depict a downed bird authentically.  Has info on helicopter losses up through Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada.

    Bell Uh-1 Super Profile, Christopher Chant, 1985, ISBN 0-85429-437-6, 56 pp. Now we're getting to the good stuff.  This volume has info on each of the Uh-1 variants (both military and civilian) and includes 8 color pages.  In the back is info on Serial numbers and specifications for each of the variants.  Be aware, by the way, that I have seen contradictory info in different refferences regarding total length of aircraft and blade length for individual variants.  Don't trust everything you read in a book!

    UH-1 Huey in Action, Aircraft Number 75, Squadron/Signal, Wayne Mutza, 1986, 49 pp.  Mutza is the man as far as I am concerned.  His book on the Huey have proven to be the most useful for working out the little details that I am interested in.  This book has info on all the Huey variants and two pages of color illustrations of various individual birds.  Also has photos of specific differences between models.  Great general ref and a "must have" for the Huey modeler.

    Fighting Colors-UH-1 Huey in Color, Squadron/Signal, Wayne Mutza, 1992, 32 pp.  As the name implies, this book covers the markings and colors used on the Uh-1.  There is a nice description of the color schemes used in Vietnam, but not in other conflicts.  There are 17 pages of color photos and this is another must for the serious Uh-1 modeler in my opinion.

    Wlak Around- Uh-1 huey Gunships- Walk around numer 36, Squadron/ Signal, Wayne Mutza, 2004, ISBN 0-89747-479-1, 80 pp.  Andy, this is your book!  32 color pages and ilustrations of indvidual gunships from Vietnam showing the unique markings of each.  Needless to say this book is primarily dedicated to the B and C model Hueys.  Also has a little info on RAAF D model gunships. Every weapons configuration I have been able to find that was used in Vietnam is here.  Lots of closeup shots of the various hatches, access panals, screens and such.  If you don't have a copy of this book, do yourself a favor and get one quick.  It will help sort out many of the questions you have concerning weapons configurations and even has photos of the little mentioned "Sagami" mounting system for the M60.  If I could own only one book on the armed Huey, this would be it.

   Well, there you go.  As far as i know that is all the major literature on the Huey.  The Gunslingers in Action (Aircraft number 14) also has a few Huey things, but is mainly dedicated to the AH-1G.  However, Page 8 includes the ONLY photo I have ever seen of a Huey fitted out exactly like the 1/48 Revell Huey"Hog."  My next course of action is to go to Ft. Rucker and get up close to as many of the variants as I can.  Can anyone say Summer Vacation!  I hope this helps in your quest for Huey info.

    Ray

Ray

 Wow, thanks alot for the list, looks like a great selection and i will be keeping my eye out for the walk around book. I to love my research but living in the UK the selection of huey books isnt to good the shops mostly cater for spitfire enthusiasts, though i have managed to track down a few books over the years in some old second hand shops but none that deal specifically with the huey.

I have managed to get hold of a few VHS video documentaries about the war in Vietnam.

Vietnam Chopper Wars - Air Cavalry, 1996 Castle Communications CVB 1139, has some great footage of huey pilots training at Ft.Rucker and the gunships going through their paces and showing them in action in vietnam. Its a great doorway to history for any huey fan.

This link also has some great footage of the UH/1A & B when they first started service as gunships.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gejLgsne65c

this one has some great AH/1 Cobra shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChjmXT8FM7Y

Andy

Andy,

  Go to Bookfinder.com and select UK as destination.  Most of the Huey books can be found through this used and new book search.  Good luck.  Ray 

Nice one Ray, found a few copies handy site, thanks

Andy

That was some great UH-1A and UH-1B early armament footage.  Thanks!  I love that scene from We Were Soldiers, but I am pretty sure that the XM-21 system wasn't around when the Ia Drang battle took place (November 1965), but it is still great to see those minis rock and roll!  Also, the Hueys are mostly H models (pitot tube on roof instead of paired on the nose), but D models were used in the actual battle.  Finally, the doorgunners in the slicks have "free" 60s on bungees, but to my and my dad's knowledge, slicks always carried pintle mounted 60s.  I still love the movie, but I thought you might be interested in at least those innacuracies that I have noticed.   Ray

Well said Ray.

To follow up on the point, also know that the helos used in the movie ACrockosh*t Now were mainly H models. I used to work for a company that supplied thier surplus B model to the movie companies, and it would get the typical wash-off temporary movie paint as required for the scene it was to be in.  It served many roles over the years.

 I do believe that there is an older, out of print book, "Building the UH1 Huey" that you may latch onto. As with all refernces, verify and consider anything from Wikipedia to be dubious.

In the end, let this be a hobby that we enjoy......not get so tangled up in counting rivets that we burn out and forget to have fun!

 David

Ray

Well spotted, I dont suppose there are many 1D's left now if they were converted to 1H's in the 60s i dunno wouldnt of hurt to put a coupla fake antenna on the noses but for the cost and agro compared to the amount that would notice i spose it was cheaper to overlook, but the dodgy CGI huey approuch phase made me squirm lol but hey .. the technical boys tried lol . There are a few innacuracies in the film but i suppose that things have to be squashed down and jazzed up a bit to compete with the fictional films.

As far as the armaments go i think that the minigun was first used in Vietnam in december of 64 by the CH-47s, and i think the M21 subsystem was introduced in 64 along with the M23 door pintle mount for the 60's. but whether completely factual or not i was just glad that someone had made a film with hueys playing a staring role. with the skyraider doing what it does best and that gunship coming over the ridge with miniguns blazing insured that there would always be a copy of this film in my collection

Andy

Im currently attempting to build the crew section of my 1/32 UH-1H, tackling the seats as we speak, so far iv used sum old oars cut up from a galley ship for the poles for the crew & gunners seats with a bit of masking tape for the canvass its looking ok but im not sure. If anyone else has tackled this yet and has some tips, ive heard some people have used foil! does this work well ?? any help with things to use for the seats would be great .. thanks

Andy 

p.s. i have noticed some of the slick door gunners had a single seat instead of the usual bench type. anyone know why?

David,

  I am more interested in knowing the details from a historical perspective than anything else.  Little things like the fact that almost all doorgunners used old C-ration cans to make the feed mechanism work better in their 60's is really trivial to most folks, but I find it interesting and indicative of the "necessity is the mother of invention" mentality that characterized the Vietnam War.  No high tech gizmos or computer driven weapons, just good old American inginuity! 

      Ray
 

If I remeber right the Huey's used in "We Were Soldiers" were from a Ga NG unit. Most D models were converted to H standards after 1967.

Never saw a Huey armed with Napalm canistors, could have been aux fuel tanks(they were mounted on the pylons) or rocket pods. Dropping bombs from helo's is a very risky business, need speed and altitude to escape blast but sacrifice accuracy when you do so

Best bet when building any Huey is to find a good photo and build from that

Hello John

Thanks for the info, The huey with napalm attached was from B Troop, 1st Squadron, of the 9th cav. Here is the link to the picture, it says they dropped them individually by pulling a piece of commo wire attached to the emergency lever on the bomb shakle , its a UH-1B also pictured armed with twin m60 door guns, a 50 cal door gun and a 20mm subsystem!! Inventivness at its best

http://www.vhpamuseum.org/9thcav/1stsquad/1stsquadbTroop.shtml

Andy

Andy

Thanks for the photo, never saw that one before, rest of the armament systems I have seen before.

Glad it wasn't me in that one, like I said dropping bombs like that from helo's is risky, but it is fesible. Only other one's I have ever seen photo's of where CH-54's dropping the BIG one to make LZ's

hi,

Have a look at this site. It's a bloke in the UK, not far from where I live, about an hour by road, 5 mins by Huey. He bought an old Huey and rebuilt it and got it flying again. There are some great pics and references on it. It'll keep you amused for an hour or so.

www.huey.co.uk

Rich

Rich

Cheers for the site mate, looks good.

Andy

An interesting and complex subject, Andy, and I agree with Ray: there's too much information in print to include in this thread. Still, this is a good place to start.

I'd be happy to answer any questions I'm able, though I'm no UH-1 expert. I did fly the A and B models in flight school as trainers, and flew the UH-1C in Vietnam. I was with Alpha Troop, 7th Squadron, 17th Air Cavalry, based at Camp Enari in Pleiku in 1967, and most of our C-models were armed with the XM-21 weapons sub-systems. (General Electric GAU-2B/A miniguns x 2, 2.75 inch FFAR rocket launchers (cluster-tube type) x 2, and two bungee-mounted M60s for door guns. Several of our aircraft had the rocket launchers, no miniguns, but instead the XM-5 40mm grenade launcher turret on the nose. For information on this unit see: http://www.ruthlessriders.net/

For some amusement you can look into: http://aircavalry17.tripod.com/steinbrunnltr.htm

After 7 months I was transferred to the 189th Assault Helicopter Company (Ghostriders) at Camp Holloway, also in Pleiku, and there I flew the UH-1H. For more information on this unit see: http://www.189thahc.org/

Best of luck to you rotorheads,

--Bob

Bob

Great to hear from an Air Cav vet thanks for the links i have been a big fan of the huey for over 20 years now and its an honour to speak to someone who flew them in vietnam.

maybe i worded it wrong at the start of the thread and i know that there is way to much info on the huey to put in here but my main reason for posting was because of the huey model kits and the best way to make them look how they did when you flew them. we all know what they look like in the pictures but many models dont supply the parts to make them look authentic, some of the armament configurations are wrong in the models and Gino helped out with his diagram to cover that, I know you can get updated parts from the cobra company and decals from fireball modelworks but im also interested the scratch building of other parts the crew seats or weapons the little things that are not included in the box but bring a bit more realism to the model.

i have seen a Revell 1/32 UH-1H that had been turned into a bushranger the guy used wooden BBQ skewers for the rocket launchers and a bit of hose for the mount, milk carton cardboard for the ammo box topped with tin foil for the lid, the finished model looks great and thats what i mean, any little tips or tricks people have used to make the huey look like she is supposed to.

That said its still great to have a place to just chat and share info about hueys

Andy

Hello Gents,

I was a doorgunner with C Co., 227AH Bn 1st Air Cav 1969 beginning of '70 flying out of Phuoc Vinh.  Fireball included one of my Hueys, Nevada Gambler, as one of their subjects.  Joseph really researched his decals, from actual photos as well as interviewing crewmembers.  For that matter, a photo is worth 1,000 memories because the mind fades a lot faster than photos!

A couple of things that caught my attn in this thread:

Early Huey gunners' M-60s hung down 'free' on a bungee cord.  Later, came the pintle mount.

I always thought the 'D' and 'H' looked the same, that the only difference was a more powerful engine.  I heard that from a Bell employee.

Never say never.  Helo pilots and crew were all volunteers and a bunch of wild and crazy guys that did a lot of wild and crazy things.  For example, the VN Helo Pilots Assoc Calendar's featured photo for Feb 2007 shows a B model with napalm.

I learned that different things happened at different times in different places.  i.e.  I don't know anybody that sat on their helmet.  I don't know anybody that could sit on their helmet for hours at a time!  On the other hand, I remember 'supply' coming around the flight line one day offering flak vests and being macho 19 year olds we refused them.  I remember too that my pilot that day took the one I refused, and dropped it down into the clear chin bubble for protection.

As far as the C-ration can ammo feed, we all used it, as your ammo belt would be flapping around somewhat, even if you tried to steady it with your other hand.  A little sprue or rod depending on the scale model is easy enough.  The ink would have worn off so just paint it OD.

The passenger/cargo compartment seats could be rearranged however you wanted because the 'seats' were simply heavy fabric on a tubular frame.  There were 'circles' embedded into the floor that had multiple uses, and some - not as many - on the ceiling.  One was for the tubular frame 'legs' to clip into the floor.  The ones on the cieling were where the 'poles' mounted top and bottom.  The poles had rectangular braces on them, that we hung smoke grenades on.  Revell had released a Huey slick and a Huey Gunship.  The slick had these seats - you wouldn't have to build a thing.  I think Panda also released their kit as a slick and a gunship.

The Huey could take a lickin and keep on tickin.  In addition to patching holes from bullets or shrapnel with small patches touched up with zinc chromate green paint, we often would replace a panel altogether.  If you see a windshield or chin bubble framed in whitish grey, that's the unpainted fiberglass.  I joke with my IPMS chapter members that the correct shade of OD was 'checkerboard.'  One panel would be brand new semi gloss brownish OD, another dull flat Brown, another greenish, and so on for an almost checkerboard effect.  That's a little exaggeratted but gives the impression!

What else?  Rather than take things for granted, do you know the roof windows above the pilot and copilot are tinted green?  There are a few brands of paint that have a 'transparent green' you can simply spray the parts.

The crew figures that came with the Panda Huey were also available as a figure set from DML (?) which came with I believe, only one pintle mounted M-60 and one bungee cord.  You'd have to buy a 2nd set for two.  Or there's the Cobra Co. accessory.  They also have the armor plates for the pilots' seats.

We usually carried a tool box, a water can and a case of c-rations in the forward part of the passenger area, just behind the center console, with a seat belt going through it all and fastened at each end to the floor so they didn't fly out the doors (there were 'rings' in those circular indents in the floor).

We flew with our cargo doors off.  I've seen others that just flew with them open all the time.

Most the walls and ceilings were covered with a 'sound absorbing' (it sure as hell wasn't soundproof!) grey quilted fabric that had snaps, and snapped onto the wall.  It had cutouts where there was the box to plug in to the radios (cieling),,, I've seen slicks flying without all these panels fastened properly or missing some.

We wedged our M-16 or other personal weapon between our seat and the wall.  In spite of regulations to the contrary, some guys had a shotgun or a Tommy Gun (that they bought or had sent from home!)...

OK, I smell something burning.  I've been thinking too long!  Time for me to call it a night - and go back there.

Start asking questions and I'll answer them best I can.  Just think - the 1/72 modelers have to scratchbuild most of this.  There's no Cobra or other company producing parts in that scale.

Clear right! 

HowieB

Howie,

     Good to see a  veteran willing to help us out.  Thanks, and thanks for your service!  My father was with the 190th AHC out of Bein Hoa from '68-'69.  He has told me, and all his photos bear this out, that they flew without the pilots doors.  However, all the photos I have seen of his still show the cargo door in place.  Was the removal of the cargo doors a unit specific thing?  I have also seen plenty of photos showing HAL3 Seawolves choppers minus both doors, probably because they operated over water and wanted a quick evac in case of trouble.  As for the fact that pintle mounts came later in the war.  I have to confess that I can't find a photo of the Ia Drang battle that shows a doorgunner position well enough to tell.  However, I do have a photo from Feb or '66 that clearly show a whole flight of D models with M23 mounts and guns in the doors (Bell Uh-1 Huey "slicks" 1962-1965, p. 20).  My father said to his knowledge no slicks ever had free 60s, and I understand that was also because the new gunners flew in the slicks and the pintle mount kept them from shooting the rotors off.  Please give me your opinions about this.  Also this link : http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/aaarmsys.htm#M23 indicates that the M23 system was developed in 1964 so it could have been in use by the time of the Ia Drang battle.  All I have to go on is photos and documentation, I wasn't there, of course. Thanks again for the info, I wasn't aware that any Army units regularly flew without the cargo doors.  That's two less parts I have to put on my late war Hueys!

     Ray
 

Thanks alot for that Howie, there's some realy great info there, another Air Cav vet i realy appreciate you vietnam vets contributing to these posts, its great to have info on the hueys from the guys that served in them and had first hand experience.

 I always wondered what the quilted fabric was for, makes sense now though, i have painted it grey in my model as most people do but i have noticed that in most of the huey pictures it looks a greenish color!

 I have seen pictures of a huey with its right chin bubble and windshield framed in grey it looked a right mess lol. Great story about the flak vest in the chin bubble i'd do exactly the same, great for visibility not so great when people are shooting at you!

I have the revell 1/32 UH-1H gunship its not supplied with crew seats as it comes with M6 quad Machine guns and seven pod rocket launchers that according to revell are mounted behind the doors!!! so there is an ammo box for the M6 where the seats should be, so you have 2 options leave off the guns and have a seatless slick or use the forward mounted miniguns included in the kit and turn it into a still seatless UH-1H bushranger gunship lol.

As far as i know the DML crew set are like gold dust now, although everyone seems to have found a set ,they are out of production and i cant find them anywhere.

Thanks again Howie for the guide round the inside of a huey, all the little details are great to know and will help out loads

Andy

As far as i know the DML crew set are like gold dust now, although everyone seems to have found a set ,they are out of production and i cant find them anywhere.

There is a set on eBay right now.  They aren't going for cheap though.

DML Helo Crew

Gino

Thanks for that mate, see what you mean about the price plus overseas postage and thats only one m60 mount sorted, i think i'v picked the wrong hobby lol probly be cheaper to put my helo back in the box and start collecting pokemon or teapots

If i get the cobra company mounts, 1 crew kit should do

Andy

Looks like I was a little loud before, SORRY about that!  They didn't do that great a soundproofing job after all, as my ears can attest.  All the ones I saw were grey.

We flew with the cargo doors off - including the narrow cargo doors at the front of the compartment, just  behind the pilots.  It saved weight, and egress time - the big ones were also in the way for refueling - the gas cap was on the ship's right side, past the gunner.  We flew with the pilots doors on - I guess it was a unit by unit thing.

I found my figure set at an IPMS show and got lucky, as well as a Revell Huey slick.  As far as the pintle mount and seats, they're not that difficult to make.  I made one years ago.

Re the pintle mounting:  What mounts to the slick body is somewhat teardrop shaped to conform to the body - you could use a piece of paper and play around with it til you get the shape to trace (unless you have that tool...) onto sheet plastic.  You need 2 of these ea for the gunner and crewchief.  One goes on each end of a thich plastic rod about 2 1/2 (real) feet long.  At the center, top of the rod would be a thinner rod that comes up veritcally to what would have been waist high on the gunner (sorry - I eyeballed mine).  Sitting on top of this would be roughly a U shape that the M60 sits in.  I glued   mine and didn't get concerned about it moving around.

We had an oversize can of ammo loosely wedged behind that verticle rod and the gunner's feet.  I didn't know there was actually an ammo can made to fit that mount until I saw DML's figure set!  Ours was probably from a grenade launcher (40mm?)...

HR (IR?) made a line of 54mm (32nd scale) weapons and the co. is still around - I remember an M-60 - I'm pretty sure they had a helo M60 with the handgrips instead of the infantry stock.

You can use paper to play around with to get your dimensions for the seats.  When new they were fairly taught.  In fact, when new the early 'model' especially stateside was a red/orange.  The ones I saw in Nam were khaki colored.  If you go with a medium thickness plastic you can roll it a little over your Xacto handle or such to give it a little 'sag,' stipple it with liquid cement to create a fabric texture, if you want to get crazy, punch out half circles where you're going to put the grey tubular legs and floor-ro-ceiling posts.  Those are made from plastic rod.  Just space them out evenly (again, I Mark I eyeballed them)... glue some cans made of rod painted OD to those posts for smoke grenades - paint the top of the cans the color of smoke that would be in it - a yellow, red, purple, green... add a straight piece of sprue for the lever.

Was that of any help?

I took photos which helped jog my memory.  A note of caution re veterans' memories - guys may not remember that well - ask a cop taking witness' accounts after an accident and add 30+ years!  I had Frank Gabreski as a guest speaker at my chapter and I told him modelers argued over whether the bottom of his last P-47 was painted grey or was natural metal.  He looked at me and said, "Darned if I know!  I pre-flighted it and flew it almost every day but I never 'looked at it,' not like that!"

I was a modeler before I went to Nam so I took photos and was conscious about keeping records, not leaving it to memory!

Clear right!

Howie

BTW, to all of you who (ever) served and your dads who have - thanks and welcome home!

Just a thought - the Ia Drang was the first major action - to the best of my knowledge we only had early Huey B/C models serving as slicks and as gunships at the time.  Probably 'free/bungee' 60's then (and after we shot off enough rotors they figured we needed those pintle mounts with 'stops' built in so we didn't kill ourselves)...

I believe when the D/H's arrived the B/Cs became gunships - I thought until replaced by D/H gunships and then Cobras but a friend of mine flew gunships B/C's long after I came home - 1972.  So a logical, chronological - order - is not logical!

FYI there's a civilian group in GA (?) who have rebuilt several Hueys and Cobras and go around to a lot of the airshows giving Huey rides for $50 and giving a performance.  I don't know if they're starred in movies yet.

Howie