Vietnam Huey

Here is an up close photo of the mounting bracket for the Sagami pintle from one of my father's ships.  By 68, 69 my father's unit was using free 60's, but this ship still had the mounting bracket installed.  Also a good shot of the M-134 minigun and some of it's wiring from above. 

Ray 

[/img]

 Thats a great shot indeed! Thanks for it! Makes me wanna build another Huey)))

 Andy

Thanks for those, guys. It looks like the frame bends back towards the interior of the Huey. I'll have a go at scratching those. I fancy doing a SeaWolves B/C which had .50 cal mounted on Sagami mounts.

Rich

Ray

In the two pictures i posted further up, the top mount looks a more complicated design than in the other pictures, it may be my eyes but the others look different, its just that if all sagami mounts are like the one in the top picture, scratch building one could be a bit of a nightmare.

Andy

Andy,

  the segami mount was not a Army sanctioned system as far as I know (no xm number, for example).  Therefore, it seems to have been altered by different units with minor changes.  The one constant is that the mount swings out away from the open doorway and that the gun is mounted on a straight pintle post.  Note by the way that the pintle post has holes aong it's length to adjust the height.  The top picture in your post above shows the pintle post mounted low on a D/H model wile the lower pic shows it mounted high on a B model.  I think from what i've seen that the mount on the B/C models was the less complicated than the ones used on D/H model above. I thought this pic of the pintle mounting bracket might also be helpful.

 Rich,

Mutza's UH-1 gunships book has quite a few pics of the segami mount on Army, Navy, and Air Force SOF birds.  Unfortunately, I don't have any digital ones from the Seawolves.  However, since we're talking about mounting systems and 50 cals, I thought you might like these of the 50 cal system for the M-23-style pintle mount used by the US Army (called M213 system).

You've got to love the guy with the tie and dress clothes.  Anyone up for a gun run down Wall Street!  Hope this info helps some.   Ray 

Ray

Its interesting to me that with all the trials that were taking place in Rucker at the time, it was left to the crews already in Vietnam to adopt and augment an unsanctioned form of mount for the door gunners. I may be wrong but as far as i know it was a Japanese guy who invented the sagami. I would love to know more on the story, Was he in Vietnam, was he working for the US and if not why was it he and not the US military officials that responded to the needs of the helicopter crews under fire over in Vietnam. I may be completely wrong but for a Japanese sagami mount to arrive in Vietnam before the US M23 seems a bit strange to me.

I know that helicopter assault was in its infancy and alot of lessons were learnt in the field at the cost of many lives ( there is well documented reports of the new AH-1G cobras crashing in Vietnam without having time to send a distress call, it was later found that a fault in the helicopter was causing it to suddenly vear to the side, if it happened at high altitude it could be easily corrected by an experienced pilot but at low level it was proving fatal). (maybe some of the cobra experts out there can elaborate more on this for me).

I wonder sometimes if lessons will ever be learnt, will anyone ever listen to the troops in the field, did anyone ever see an official addition to the M60 to help stop the ammo belt flapping in the wind, that didnt come out of a C ration box!! Will it always take 42 years a hollywood movie and public interest to finaly get a medal of honour awarded to people like Bruce Crandall! Will there ever be enough flak jackets?   

Moaning over. here's a diagram of mounts for the M60 & 50 cal that may be of some use.

If ever a picture showed a need for mounts in Vietnam i think its this one

And another from B troop 1/9 Air Cav, showing Twin M60's on a sagami mount developed in the field by an inventive crew chief out of scrap parts (with a bit of scratch building i am hoping to turn my Academy heavy hog into this bird, will post pictures of progress when i start)

Some nice pictures there Ray.

Thanks

Andy

I may be wrong but as far as i know it was a Japanese guy who invented the sagami.

I believe Sagami was an Army SGT and a doorgunner who improvised it on his helo, then others saw it and copied it.

Andy,

  All Mutza says is that "a soldier named Sagami divised this mount while serving in one of the first Huey units deployed to Vietnam in the early 1960's."  Remember that if you use the Sagami mount in your models the 60's should be M60A's not M60D's.  The mount was originally devised specifically for the infantry 60.    Ray 

Ray,

Can you just refresh my memory again re the difference between M60 A and D. Is the A like the infantry weapon and the D have the spade grips and is slimmed down somewhat? Thanks.

Rich

Ray,

I doubt the "bungi" cord mounted .50 cal was ever fired more than a few rounds.  The kick back would have been hell on the gunner!  The improvised mounts for the .50's were known to tear up the "hard points" on Hueys to the point they were deemed "unflyable". 

richgb wrote:

Ray, Can you just refresh my memory again re the difference between M60 A and D. Is the A like the infantry weapon and the D have the spade grips and is slimmed down somewhat? Thanks. Rich

Yes, you got it right.

Note, the .50cal was never sanctioned for use on the Huey, but was added by alot of units in the field for more hitting power

Grandadjohn,

  If the .50 cal was never sanctioned for use in Huey, why is there an official name for the armament subsystem (xm213) as well as official Army photos showing the system mounted in Hueys?  Was it tested, but never officially adopted?  Of the photos I posted, three look like official Army pics, includng the diagram of the XM213 system.  

Mel,

  Not sure what the "bungi" mounted 50 cal reference was to?  I was talking about free 60s if anything.  I think you were directing that comment at Andy since he posted the pic of a "free 50".

  Ray
 

I should have known to post photos for clarity so here is a pic of my dad in the armament shop with an M60A that he fished out of the Mekong Delta and refurbed (notice the buttstock and pistol grip charcteristic of the A model) .

" border="0" />

Here is a stock pic of a M60D (spade grips, no pistol grip, no buttstock, large front sight post) on the M23 mount.  Notice that the bipod is installed on the M60D below, but not on my dad's M60A.  Many, if not most, gunners removed the bipods since they were useless in a gun mounted in a Huey (unless, of course, your Huey was shot down).  Also, notice that there is no forearm on the D model (I know this has been mentioned before, but now its all in one place).  However, not all M60A's were used with the forearm in place.  The last photo is of a crew chief with a free 60 (M60A) without a forearm installed.  This pic is also a great reference for the bungee cord system favored by many gunship gunners.

Ray 

" border="0" />

" border="0" />

The forearm was removable (for cleaning on the original) and was not needed on helo operated M-60's. It was used to help the grunt keep from burning himself on the hot barrel.

Spent almost 12 years in the Army on Huey's and never saw it as an approved weapon, main reason was as Mel stated, vibrations and the weight were hard on the Huey. As for the system number, I have never seen it before. Think Gino posted an approved weapons list earlier in this thread.

When 50's were mounted at the unit level, they were on special ships only, such as Fireflies and recovery

Ray,

Sorry, it was Andy that posted it!  Ooops!  Friendly Fire!  Returning same! 

Grandadjohn,

  I figured that the " X" was for experimental, but what about the XM157 rocket pods (for example) which were definitely used in country, but have an XM number?  I must confess that I use the designations I find on the net and in books (mainly books).  That being said, Mutza refers to the XM156 universal mount, which was used on almost every gunship in Vietnam.  In fact he refers to all but the M-134 with an XM number.  I just assumed that this was standard for armament subsytems.  I just checked Drendel, Mesko, and Chant (see first part of thread for book list with authors) and they all variously refer to the XM-21, XM-158, XM-5 as well as the M-6, M-5, M-21 armament systems.  There appears to be no set standard, but all four refs have XM tacked onto systems that saw lots of action in Vietnam (were not just experimental).  I would love for someone to clear this up once and for all so I could say I actually knew what I was talking about!

  As for the forearm issue, here is a photo of my dad and you can clearly see the forearm in place.  In fact, all the photos I have of him as a doorgunner his 60 has a forearm.  I think it must have been personal preference, but I'll ask him and see.

Ray 

[/img]

Ray,

There are some great pics there, thanks for posting those. Does your Dad have any shots of his "Monkey harness" at all? It would just add that little bit more realism if you could model the crew wearing these.

Thanks,  Rich

PS I hope you don't mind me saving these pics to file.

Rich,

  I'm glad you liked the pics.  I got my father's blessing to post them so you are welcome to copy them.  If you want to post them anywhere else, My father's name is Dewey Wilhite and he was with the 190th AHC in Ben Hoa from '68-69.  I'm sorry but I don't have any pics that show the monkey harness very well.  I have over 1,000 pics thta I have downloaded from the net of UH-1's and none show the monkey harness well either.  Perhaps one of our resident doorgunners/crew chiefs (Howie, Mel, or Grandadjohn) could help you out. 

Ray 

Sorry, no shots of a monkey harness.

Has for weapons system numbers, we never used them, we always refered to them by name or nickname. Only one I remember is the sucker that did in my back and it's weight

OK, I just got off the phone with dad so I thought I would share his recollections on a few of the things we have been talking about.  Now remember, his memory proabably isn't perfect and my retelling porobably isn't as well.  Also, we both agree that the particulars only apply to the 190th AHC from 68-69 and other units may have had a different SOP. 

    Because dad had a small arms MOS he was in a unique position to comment on the armament systems.  Beginning with the M60.

   -Whether forearms were on or off the M60A's depended on what they had for supply.  Dad emphasized that you never knew from one day to the next what would be available.  However, most M60A's were probably operated with the forearm in place (note that M60D's never had forearms).

   -Whether or not the barrels had the bipods attached also depended on what was available and how much time the gun had in the armament shop.  It took some effort to get them off (you had to remove the flash suppressor, etc.) so if the barrels came with bipods, the gunners usually got them with bipods.  My dad took them off of his own personal weapon and many others as well, but he said slick gunners (M60D's)regularly had them on their guns because he didn't have time to remove them.  

    -As a safety feature, the barrels were regularly removed from the gunship doorguns when the ship landed temporarly (say a rice paddy dike).  Dad said you just had to lift a single lever with a half pin attached and the barrel came right out.  This was much easier than unloading the gun and having to reload when you took off again.  since the M60 fires from an open bolt, this rendered the gun safe and unfireable.  Also, frequently barrels would burn the inside lining out during heavy use.  The gunner has an asbestos glove for handling the hot barrel in flight.  Below is a photo of a crew cheif with a 60 minus the barrel so you can see what that might look like.  Sorry for the poor quality, but its what I got!

  - Although it hasn't been discussed much here I thought you all might also be interested in some closeups of the m-134 minigun of the M-21 system.  The minis were only regularly removed when the ship was in for scheduled maintenance (Phase).  Here is a pic of a couple of M-134's in the armament shop.  This should be a great ref for thos e wanting to super detail 1/35 minis.

Here's another of dad holding two M-134'.  They really look a lot larger than they are. 

[img]" border="0" />

I hope some of you guys find this stuff as interesting as I do.  Mainly, I'm just proud to be my dad's son, and I want others to know what he did.  NEVER FORGET!

   Ray
 

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/aahist2.htm#Gun

 Here is a site that might clear up some of the mystery on the gun system naming. I noticed that whenever it talked about XM the statement said this was a research and development system. Go to page two and you can find many weapons systems. I noticed that I think this was a TACOM site. TACOM are the folks that manage the weapons systems and provide field tech support to the troops. Let me know if this helps.

Ed

In my brothers unit, The 176th AHC, they had chrome plated the mini guns on one of their gunships. This is the same one that was made into a model by MPC as their 1/35th scale Huey.

Here's the link to their units site.

 http://members.aol.com/mm27176th/

Here are the pictures of the chromed mini guns

This one had Chrome trim on the mini guns 

rotorwash wrote:

Rich,   I'm glad you liked the pics.  I got my father's blessing to post them so you are welcome to copy them.  If you want to post them anywhere else, My father's name is Dewey Wilhite and he was with the 190th AHC in Ben Hoa from '68-69.  I'm sorry but I don't have any pics that show the monkey harness very well.  I have over 1,000 pics thta I have downloaded from the net of UH-1's and none show the monkey harness well either.  Perhaps one of our resident doorgunners/crew chiefs (Howie, Mel, or Grandadjohn) could help you out.  Ray

Depending on which Type of harness you are referring to, I can get some pics.  I have one of the modified vests around here somewhere and I have a harness in my locker (if ALSE hasn't already snagged it).  Did y'all use one fo these two maybe?  I'll post pics when I can.

Mac

Mac,

  My dad's description of the monkey harness (which he calls a monkey belt) consists of a single belt attached to the central part of the floor of the helicopter against the back wall that went around your waiste and kept you from exiting the ship during tight turns and when you were firing standing on the skids.  

    Ray

Ed,

  Thanks for the info.  I am very familiar with that site, it just never quite registered that it was an OFFICIAL Army website.   Not to throw a wrinkle in things, but the website lists the XM157 rocket system (see photo below) and I know this system was used extensively in Vietnam (it differed from the M158 rocket pods in that the rocket tubes were not seperate and could not be replaced individually).  However, the site appears to be the most consistant info on weapons systems and I will use their designations in posts from now on. Thanks,  Ray 

M-21 armament system with XM(?)157 rocket pods 

[/img]

Ray:

I did a search for TACOM and found their site. If you go to their home page, on the bottom left is a contact us link. I would try directing a question to their historian on weapons numbers and see what happens.

If you write to TACOM let us know what you find out.

Ed

I found this totally by chance today.............it appears to be in a NVA museum........isn't this a D model?