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UH-1E /C/M project

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  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:39 PM

Michael,

  Looks GREAT!  Real life has been calling me as well!  Maybe in a couple of weeks we can put our heads together and see what's what.

      Ray
 

  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:10 PM

Ray

 Heres an update from the last few days,there wont be much more for a week or so, real life calling !.

 Finished up the gun ammo belt and ammo boxs, added some rotor head parts and animated. l'm not real happy with the engine casing scoops, there a bit lumpy for renders but should blend in when textured and in sim....l hope.

 Poly count to date is 52,750, l'm hoping to finish the rotor section and level off around 56-57,000, that should leave 5-7000 for crew figures, gun sight and some hoses, pedals and a few nick knacks, now the belt is getting tighter LOL.

I did get your mail and will respond in due course.

Kindest 

Michael

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:44 AM

Micheal,

  Here's a 71st AHC Charlie that shows the position of the "Towel Bar":

  [img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

This bird is configured as a Heavy Hogwith M200 9 shot rocket pods and M5 grenade launcher.

As for the fuel filler cap, I concur that the indent isn't enough to waste polys on.  I just wanted you to knwo where it was because the loaction is important for identification of the aircraft.

Ray 

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Hatter50 on Sunday, August 12, 2007 5:08 AM

Michael,

The "indent" of the fuel filler could be done by bump mapping also as it's not that deep.  This goes for a lot of the smaller surface detail.....ie rivits, deep panel gaps.  Cool [8D]  Save on polys that way.  Now to animate some of those fire doors in flight, as they flapped (inward) a lot due to weak springs.

Steve

  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:57 AM

Ray,

Ok l can ammend that, Steve is also doing a similar breakdown for the E model so l should shortly be able to have two seperate layers in Max now for each type, Does the roof towel rail antenna on the C go back to just in front of the transmission opening ?.

The filler cap is going to be hard to indent but l'll give it a try and see what happens.

Best

Michael

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Saturday, August 11, 2007 8:13 PM

Micheal,

  Great work!  Now that we're talking a M21 equipped Charlie model, let's get specific.  First, there was no rescue hoist on the C model, it's indicative of Navy and Marine birds so nothing lost there.  Second, you could eliminate the "highline" antenna down the tail boom and save some polys.  Many, if not most, Charlies flew without them.  Third, how about the fuel filler cap?  It goes on the left side in Charlies and is the definitive feature that distinguishes the C/M from the Bravo when looking at Army birds. 

   Here is the fuel filler cap on a UH-1M at the Pima Air and Space Museum in Tucson:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at PhotobucketHere are a couple more. the first shows the fuel cap a little wider and the second shows the M156 mount very well:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucketsorry that bird's a little shabby, but the parts look good.  The fuel filler cap was usually highlighted with red (sometimes black). Anyway,

  I hope these pics are adequate.  Keep the pics coming.

        Ray
 

   
 

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Saturday, August 11, 2007 7:50 PM
Well, (spit) as y'all know (spit again), I don't know nuttin' 'bout them "polys" (choking cause I didn't spit soon enough) Confused [%-)] (spit) . But, them there "polys" look like they dun come together purty darn good! (throwing up cause my buddy slapped me on the back and I swallered!!) Yuck [yuck] Gonna have to quit chewin', I guess! Dead [xx(]
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Saturday, August 11, 2007 5:21 PM

Ray,

 Thanks for that, adding stuff thats 'generally' indicative to each variant adds greatly to there authenticity, you are right l've been slowly reading through all the threads and theres a staggering amount of variations.

 l've added the aft brace and M2 Cannon, its not super detailed as l need to hold back some polys in reserve for the rest of the model but for flight sim its almost good enough.

 The E model is the one Steve is experianced in and that weapons system will follow shortly, l've opted to remove the winch on the C to save polys and reading threads around here this seems a normal thing to do to preserve weight.

 Attached the progress thus far for your perusal.

 

 

 

Kindest

Michael

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Hatter50 on Saturday, August 11, 2007 2:52 PM

Hey Ray,

Correct, no brace on the TK-2.  2 straight tubes with the mounts welded on for the rocket pod rack and machine guns.  Very simple.  Very hard to find reference drawings though.  Too simple I guess.  Clown [:o)]

Regards
Steve

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Saturday, August 11, 2007 2:06 PM

Micheal,

  As you may have guessed reading through this site, there are no ABSOLUTES with Hueys.  Given that, the M156 brace is indicative of the UH-1C/M whereas the M156 without the brace was standard UH-1B.  The drain gang should have been present on all Hueys as far as I know.  The Echo used the TK-2 mounting system and lacked the brace as far as I can tell.  Unfortunately, my experience with Echos is purely annecdotal and pictorial.  

     Ray

  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Saturday, August 11, 2007 12:09 PM

Ray,

Thanks, l'll try and add all these in tonight are they the same for E and C models ?.

I presume the images l've seen of the M156 mount with out extra brace are B models then ?, theres so many variants l'm slowly getting to grips with what goes where :), let alone Army or Marine variations.

 Should have a new screen shot tonight of the finished weapons mount for the sim version, if l have spare polys left over l'll add more hoses and such to the M2 Gatling gun ( I hope thats the right designation of that weapon ? ).

Super images by the way !.

Best

Michael

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Saturday, August 11, 2007 8:57 AM

Michael,

  Those measurements are close enough!  It was just the angle.  I'm sorry i forgot to explain the drain gang.  I should have known better.  The dain gang is located just forwad of the tail boom on the left underside of the aircraft and is used to vent fuel in an emergency.  Here is a pic of the drain gang on a UH-1B:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

You can see that the drains are randomly placed and different lengths and diameters.  it's just one of those details that makes the aircraft look "real" to me.  

  With regard to the m156 mount, the C/M model had a brace that spanned from the rear  of the mount to the airframe. Yo can see it here on this early UH-1C spanning from the mounting bracket to the  airframe just behind the door.

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Good luck and keep us posted.

          Ray
 

  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Saturday, August 11, 2007 1:53 AM

Ray,

The stabs are 27.8" chord and 9' 3 & 7/8" span, thats probably due to working in metric and decimal conversions, l'll ammend them to the exact figures shortly.

The angle does do funny things as well as the camera lense l use for the renders and can often throw things into disarray.

What is a drain gang ?, Steve has mentioned drains on the underside, l presume these are one and the same ?, l still need to add the lights down there as well some time soon, hopefully after finishing the M158 pod today.

Best

Michael

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Saturday, August 11, 2007 12:27 AM

Michael,

  You might want to check the horizontal stab dimensions. In the UIH-1C/E/M the chord (width) should be 28 inches and the span of the two stabs should be 9 feet 4 inches.  The chord doesn't look quite that wide in your latest model, but it could be the angle.

   Ray
 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Friday, August 10, 2007 5:12 PM

Michael,

   Quite a nice start on the underside. I am especially pleased to see the strakes. They are often overlooked on the underside.  The M156 brackets look nice too.  I would really like to see a drain gang if that's not too much trouble.  I understand it's a work in progress.  Keep up the good work and keep posting pics of your progess.

Thanks,

         Ray

  
 

  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Friday, August 10, 2007 3:34 PM

Ray,

 Here is the underside view you asked for, not much progress today l'm afraid.

Kindest

Michael

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Hatter50 on Friday, August 10, 2007 5:08 AM

Hey Guys,

I started the thread here because here is where the Huey "Experten" were.  I needed help.  And i got it....lots of it.....from a lot of kind people here.  I had promised to finally give a peek at what we were working on.  Michael is a wizard with that 3D stuff, and i just kinda like to LOOK at it.  It's like it's real.

With the UH-1 Armament threads here, I think that this fits right in with those threads.  I for one am learning about the Army's systems.  I'm used to the old grease pencil on the windshield  trick. If the 3D model is good enought, then it helps everyone visualize those systems.  A Win-Win for everyboby.  Even old Fat Polly.  Right....she is to be decimated!  Maybe we should "spare" Polly?  But not Poly.

Regards
Steve

 

  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Thursday, August 9, 2007 8:39 PM

Randy,

 Yes these are computer games....which on the face of it have no place here in what is essentially a hands on modellers habitat. However they are models but virtual models so there is a teneous link there somewhere, as l metioned above it may be possible to make renders of these virtual models to help those that cant perhaps visualise things from 2D drawings to 3D objects, or perhaps to rotate those sub parts to angles and such that would be difficult in real life. Think of them as scratch built models but in a virtual world.

Have you ever seen the Osprey series of military books ?, if you ever get a chance then look at the Tiger tank one, it has some superb 3D cutaways inside that allow modelers to detail the interior and get excellent spacial orientation, in the good old days these would have been drawn and painted by an artist, these days they are made in a CAD program as a virtual model and then simply rendered and printed.

 Virtual models dont always have to be used for 'games', as Ray points out, many are used in engineering to enable designers and engineers to visualise a component long before any metal or material is cut, normally the mesh will be fed into a robot which will machine cut the component, in plastic model making it wont be long before a virtual model will form the basis of the master mould for plastic injections....if it already hasnt been done.

 You cant touch a virtual model, but then if your plastic canopy glazes over you can replace it, you also cant fly a plastic model, but you can with virtual ones, the two compliment each other in different ways.

 I started in plastic many years ago, mostly fixed wing or 1:35 armour, but virtual models offer so much more creativity and your not waiting for someone to release something you want.

Best

Michael

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Thursday, August 9, 2007 8:07 PM

Okay, I think I kinda get it. But! What the heck is "FS2004" and "FSx"? Are these video/computer sims/games?

If this is so, it would explain a whole lot of what is going on. 

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:38 PM

Randie,

 Peturbed ?, not at all :), the poly is a thing to love and hate, its exact formation and interrelationship with its partners can make of break a smooth surface and destroy a model in moments, as Steve says a poly is a part of the mesh, in its truest form it is a triangle, but most are four sided, ie two triangles butted together to make a four sided shape. Tomorrow l'll do a render that overlays the mesh, each little square that you see will be two polys or polygons to use the correct term, we are limited to about 60-65,000 for the external model and 50,000 for the internal model, there are other factors that impact that figure but with skill and fore thought you can push to 65,000, if not then 60,000 will be your limit, currently the model sits at 42,000. Those limits are for FS2004, rumour has it that FSx will accpet 100,000 polys for both internal and external models, though lower is better as it adversely effects game fluidity.

 The fuselage is getting better, thanks,  you find as you add more it often requires a little fine tunning to reshape to get it too look right, the upper part aft of the cargo door around the fuel filler needs a little more curving, but generally were looking at moving vertices a few inches here and there to fine tune the shape.

Ray,

 Sure l can post a render from below, as Steve says theres not a lot of detail down there as yet, but the hell hole is there and other necessary sundries like skid troughs and mounts and most antenna, though there is no cargo hook yet, and l need to add the M156 mount lower bracing.

Kindest

Michael

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Hatter50 on Thursday, August 9, 2007 6:01 PM

Hey Ray,

There is absolutely no detail on the undersides as of yet.  30K?  Guess thats why i don't have one of them thar decimate'ng thingies.......

Now there is a process with the new Sim....that inserts a faily detailed several pixel thick 3D layer between the Poly Mesh and the paint layer.  "bump.mapping texture".  The first time I saw that with a shiney paint layer and watched the reflections in the skin....I was AWESTRUCK....it looked JUST like I was flying formation on a real aircraft.....not just some dumb flight sim THING.  This had LIFE to it.  Now....need the smell.  Maybe a jar of oil, jet-A, sweat, dirt, cordite.....

Don't ask me how to do it....I read a tutorial or 2 about it.......and I'm sound asleep......might need that 30K gizmo afterall.

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:37 PM

Michael,

   Your M156 mount and rocket rack look AWAESOME and the M157 pod turned out nice as well.  Would you mind posting a pic of the underside of the fuselage?

   I am certainly no poly decimation expert, but the program my friend uses costs about $30,000 and he does this stuff for engineers so maybe it's different than what you're used to.  I really don't know.  What he does is try to keep polys in the areas where there are lots of detail and eliminate them elsewhere.  At least that's what he says he does. That particular process is still somewhat mysterious to me.

       Ray
 

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:34 PM
I understand that just enough to get me in trouble! Laugh [(-D] So, I'll leave it all to you guys and just keep admiring the work.
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Hatter50 on Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:25 PM

Hey Randie,

Polys are the wire mesh of a 3D computer model....which that Huey is one of.  Too many Polys and the Flight Sim croaks.....So something that decimates polys....is a good thing.....un-croaks the sim.....So decimation is a good thing...as is a TOT.  (Time On Target)  Alien [alien]

Regards
Steve

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Thursday, August 9, 2007 4:48 PM

Is Polly fat? Now he wants to reduce her!Shock [:O]

Michael. I hope you aren't getting perturbed Censored [censored] with our nonsense.

The Huey fuselage looks truer to size in that picture. Did that sound right? Anyway, it looks closer to what one would expect a C/E/M to look like.  Thumbs Up [tup]

Looking good so far and I have no idea what you guys are even talking about! Confused [%-)]

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    August 2007
Posted by michael davies on Thursday, August 9, 2007 4:03 PM

Ray,

There are tools which will reduce polys drastically, the down side is it messes with the mesh and makes it all spidery and almost impossible to effectively apply UVW maps.

I tried to post an image earlier today....twice actually but both posts went AWOL, is there a post image size limit ?. Heres a direct link of the new scaled mount.

 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickoo/Images_Planes/UH-1E_15.jpg

 Best

 Michael

  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:57 PM

OK, OK!!! no decimate Polly... but then, decimate WHO?!?

Hey, RAY, Apache's in the mail.

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:46 PM
My grandmother's name was Polly, I'd have been very angry if someone tried to decimate her!
  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:46 PM

DECIMATE?!? so, are we going with  the drawn out gunfire send all available ammo downrange effect or quick and scorching what tha *&%^ was that effect?

I'M READY!!

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

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