concentration camps?

I have posted some pictures of the Andersonville dio. Let me know what you think. (See main posting for notes).

http://www.wcnet.org/~rmfrench/images.html

Thank you for the link, Glenn...

I thought the diorama was very emotional in subject matter without having to actually show the aftermath. What a powerful statement....

Dan

QUOTE: Freedom? It should be more about what's a hobby and what's history. Are we to model assinations or planes flying into buildings?

If it so pleases some one, then it is within their right to do so. Certainly not by force, but at least by choice. What if someone wanted to model moments that changed history and took a more fatalistic approach? The murder of Caesar, Assasinations of Lincoln, Ferdinand, Beckett, Kennedy, the British firing on the mob at Concorde, executions of Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette, Anne Boelynn, James I. We could even site period examples, while not styrene there is paintings of violence, Rape of the Sabine Women, Crucifiction of Christ, The Roman Triumph over Gaul, the statue of the dying Gaul, murder of David, the Macejowski Bible (13thc. illuminated Old Testament) is loaded with death, carnage and rape. When Picasso painted Guernica, he was doing the same thing. For whatever reason, it was painted, he did it. It is considered one of his greatest and most poignant pieces. I'm sure there were those that felt he was "out of bounds" both in his style and subject matter. But nonetheless it is done. The outcry against Life's photo shoot of the dead marines floating in the surf in the Pacific was quite the uproar. Yet it is an important piece of photo documentation and served a purpose on several levels. What the department of the Navy first feared would cause public outrage and fear they later used as a means to instill nationalism and patriotic fervor that helped "hype" enlistment and "Our Job isn't over..." or using similar images as a means of propaganda "Don't let this happen to your son, loose lips sink ships..."

Models or dioramas as a history lesson carry little weight. Few want to "detail" to that level as evidenced by the rivet counter bashing here in the forum as well as the objections to kit inaccuracies which is an interpretive representation not a factual representation of a vehicle or piece of machinery. This is not history but art. Which is a subjective thing. (I reiterate my statement of one mans art is another mans graffiti.)

I am not saying that what we do is not historical nor is it unable to be used as a means of teaching history or representing history. It must be put into perspective. (History is written by the victors and is as accurate as they want it to be). Dioramas are similar to movies in that they represent the builders view, attitudes or interpretation of a scene. Ask school kids who Edward I was and they'll say he was the bad guy in Braveheart. A movie that so fantasized the characters I rank it with Lord of the Rings for historical legitimacy. Sure he was a bastard at times, but he also created the bailiff, bond, judge, jury and sheriff system that was the progenitor of what we currently use in modern legal systems. The guy had several universities built, brought the fork to the northern European medieval dinner table, propagated a guild system which was the basis for modern unions, set down a system of laws that were copied by modern democracies to this day and unified England. A bit different than the "prima nocta" tyrant in the movie. Dioramas have the same effect. While an effective aid I wouldn't give them that much importance in the recording of history.

While it may not be the popular choice, and I would certainly feel awkward for the guy that brought one to a show, a diorama of an airliner smacking into the side of the WTC is not above doing but may be socially below acceptance. As would any controversial subject. History, like art, is both a matter of perception as well as interpretation. It is rare that fact and recounting match up exactly and there should be a great deal of emphasis put onto the statement “As I remember it…” Perception is subjective, i.e. one mans freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. Revolutionary vs. Rebel. We backed the Contras in South America, yet they committed the same atrocities and crimes that the Sandanistas did. Seems like we sponsored terrorism, the very same thing we went traipsing into Iraq and Afghanistan for. But at the time we were calling it “Backing Democracy”. But I digress….

This is a hobby. It’s an art form. It’s a dalliance or a past time. Does it have a responsibility to accurately record history? That in my opinion is impossible. But it can be used as a valuable tool for teaching, reference and association. So long as it is done in context. And with the spirit for which it is intended. The reasons above.

Mike

no I meant freedom of choice to build what we want as a hobby, and as an individual.

Freedom? It should be more about what's a hobby and what's history. Are we to model assinations or planes flying into buildings?

I agree totally with you all it happened and no matter how we "gloss" over what we build to a certain extent is made to kill fellow human beings, be it a tank ship or car ,all have the ability in human hands to kill,I personally have very sad memories of a certain South Atlantic campaign in the early 80's as a combat medic, but it will not stop me modelling WW2 and post WW2,ships and armour, by all means the modeller, is free to choose his own subject ,anything with war as its subject can and will remain a very contencious subject .
In regard to related sites please look at http://www.digitaldioramas.com.
Personally I find this more thought provoking and disturbing than Mr Parks offering, but again it is down to the individuals own personal and private opinion, to understand people we must respect overyone as an individual whatever race colour or creed.
If you want to build it Jedi mike8 then build it ,you have the freedom to do so.
Nick Kathy's partner.

Thanks for the link Glenn.

I found it quite moving, having read a couple of accounts of these type of events, and also quite confronting, but not offensive. There is a lot of passion in this work, and I personally don't see how not doing such pieces makes the world any better; but if this or a similar piece makes one person read about and learn from history, then it has.

Matt

Here's a link to a very recently done diorama of some controversy. It's over on the website for WW2ModelMaker.

"MY GOD, Why Do You Throw Me Away?" by Sung Ho Park of Korea.

www.ww2modelmaker.com/modelpages/SHPmygod.htm


I am not offended by this diorama. I feel Mr. Park did a fine job in portraying "man's in-humanity to man''. If you click on 'Discuss My Model Here' you can read that some folks objected to his work. At the same time many had no problems with it, including me. See for yourself! I think his piece is very thought-provoking, and I mean that as a compliment.


Glenn

Looks like we have started a very thorough and important discussion.
In my research on Andersonville, Elyria, and Johnson Island in Ohio, the conotation of concentration camp is applied to Andersonville especially because of the condition under which the POWs lived, how their water supply was so foul, and how the commandant was treated after the war. Capt. Wirz was the only confederate officer accused and hung for "war crimes." Some argue this is because he 'lied" in telling the prisoners they were being exchanged when they were merely being transfered so Sherman's army would not find them at Andersonville. At anyrate he photos of Andersonville survivors are just as horrible as some in the European camps.

In a lecture I did at Bowling Green State University, I juxtaposed actual photos from Andersonville and selected camps in Europe. Also, if you watch the Turner Andersonville movie and Band of Brothers, you will see the same scene played out - carrying a survivor out of the gates.

There is a number of excellent web sites on Andersonville that show pictures, and diary quotes. For those who have additional interest I could post my references for the dio as well as send my powerpoint overview for review.

As I stated earlier, when teaching students in schools, teachers really need to have many ways of reaching learners. As a reading specialist by trade, I know a well presented model or dio can really motivate children to learn, and the task of researching the storylines in a dio is highly motivational.

Another question for us to ponder: When we create a diorama, are we historians or story tellers. Obviously a little of both. But there is I believe a very important responsibility to make the history interesting while keeping the story told to be grounded in fact. So for example, one could never place a P-40 landing on the field of Gettysburg (unless you were doing an alternative history time travel "story".)

This who thread also underscores the important responsibility we have when we display our works. People will learn from what they see, and maybe some will be motivated to find out more. And in this way, we are all teachers, historians, story tellers, and artists.

Again,
Thanks for all the participation. As a new member I hope all the threads are this interesting.

Mike F

artist David Levinthal has done some German ones that are very moving and respectful of the subject; more art than models, but models are still part of his art.

here's a link to see some;

WARNING; THEY ARE GRAPHIC AND HAVE DISTURBING SUBJECT MATTER.

some are more subtle though (a soldier by barbed wire and a guard tower.)

http://davidlevinthal.com/works_mk-tn.html

-

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike F Ok, this is a very newbie question. How do you insert pictures into your responses. I do not see how to attach a jpeg. Do you just paste the picture into the message field? MF

First upload an image to your web server supplied by your ISP or use a free one.
( FYI some of the free ones dont allow remote linking)
Then put the url for the message like this:
(img)http://home.mchsi.com/~rabbit1010/iroc.jpg(/img) only replace ( ) with [ ] instead.
I had to do that to show the coding instead of the picture.
the result, for this picture anyway, will look like this.


Now back to the topic at hand,
I see nothing wrong with it as long as its done with taste, say 3 prisoner figures raking the yard, or eating on a bench for example.

Mike and Jeff, very thoughtful comments.

There is an element of risk in most art, but that in itself is no reason not to try and convey emotion.

Matt

I've been working on a diorama for awhile now, depicting the liberation of a camp...I have tried as hard as possible to do it in a tasteful, thought-envoking manner.

My dio is the gate of a typical camp, with a couple of M8s in front of an open gate, with a few rag-clad prisoners walking or carrying their comrades through the open gate into the arms of the US GIs...I've tried to display the emotions of the GIs as the main theme, without losing the focus on the event.

I have a neighbor who is a Holocaust survivor, and I've asked her for her opinions on the story line. So far, she's found nothing offensive or wrong, so long as it displays the emotions of the moment...

It's all in your presentation, so be careful. Dioramas can create a poignant moment in time if done correctly.

Jeff

I think it becomes an issue of context. Concentration camps have a sinister and nefarious conotation associated with them. They should more appropriately be called extermination camps or death camps. Concentration camps are just that, a concentration of prisoners, be they political, religous or military. Andersonville was a POW camp. But was operated much like the Japanese camps of WW2. The idea being to keep you alive but just. A weak, broken man has no fight left nor the strength to escape. Though they may have had different ideologies in the value of human life of prisoners, (the Japanese feeling that a surrendering prisoner had no honor, making him less than human, the Confederate disdain for what they felt were a conquering army) the end means was similar.

I had read somewhere once that the mortality of prisoners in the PTO was considerably higher than those in the ETO. This was primarily due to the war mentality and religous dogma of each culture. Something that we still neglect to take into consideration to this day. (How many US soldiers and commanders have read the Koran before going to the Gulf?) Another paradox that can be amusing if looked at in context was the Germans searching for downed fliers would not barge in on a couple being intimate. Some pilots escaped capture by making it sound like they were being loudly intimate so that the searching germans would pass them by. The French underground exploited this as much as possible. (Whether its true or not I leave to the researchers of the History Channel and ones own skepticism. Personaly I find it unlikely that an army that tried to depopulate a sizeable social sect of Europe would not barge in on a couple).

I can agree with alot of the other guys that there is a line of taste and consideration that should be taken into consideration. But that is dictated by society and what it can tolerate and or accept. Its a chance we take and part of the dynamic of social interaction. A sort of societal "one mans art is another mans grafitti". I think that the real mark of an artist is the ability to make the same statement and do it in a way that everyone can view it and receive the same emotion and yet not be offended. An example I have used before in this discussion was the image of the Basra highway after GW1. Does the photo of a burning Iraqi body tell any more of the carnage of that stretch of highway than the arial shot of the hundreds of burned out vehicles lined up for miles along the same stretch of road? Both say the same thing. Another example would be the photo of a mangled marine at Iwo Jima, or the guy looking into the camera with that thousand yard stare. Both tell of the horrors of war but which one involves you. The psychological switch that helps you when you view these images will turn off and you will disassociate yourself from the corpse. It will become a shapeless, faceless piece of meat that you will be disgusted but will not recognize as human. But the human side will make you look at that man staring at the camera and you will connect with him. Seeing every friend he lost and every foot he crawled up the beach.
My design teacher used to call it the t-shirt erotica syndrome. Whats sexier, a naked girl or a girl wearing nothing but a t-shirt. The naked girl, nothing is left to the imagination, the t-shirt though......the possibilities are endless. Same with this.
Somebody brought up the example of the vietnamese refugees on the bus. That is a face of war, probobly saying more than a burning hut or bombed out vil.

What makes it unique is the way you approach it. Show us something that we haven't seen before. In a way that is unique to you. I'm impressed by technical ability, I'm awed by the power of imagination.

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike F It is unique, too in the research that Andersonville is called a concentration camp as was Elyria in New York.

That's quite interesting since both were POW camps holding "enemy" combatants as did the Stalaglufts in Germany as opposed to Auschwitz, et al, that held non-combatants. Did the terminology change as the understanding of the conditions changed?
Al

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike F Ok, this is a very newbie question. How do you insert pictures into your responses. I do not see how to attach a jpeg. Do you just paste the picture into the message field? MF

You need to first have apicture located on line. Right click the picture and click "properties". Copy the ENTIRE url address and past it in to the text of the message or go to your profile and there'll be a place there to post a picture for your signature.

Ok, this is a very newbie question. How do you insert pictures into your responses. I do not see how to attach a jpeg. Do you just paste the picture into the message field?
MF

What a great discussion! This is what keeps me coming back to the diorama forum.

Thanks, Mike.
I will send pix along the way. A key to this discussion is that many of the model we have all built are artifacts of war. So, how we show them or arrange them is key. It is unique, too in the research that Andersonville is called a concentration camp as was Elyria in New York.
Thanks for the encouragement.
MF

What a paradox? There is a sense of squeamishness of the atrocities committed at Auschwitz, and yet we gladly model the Enola Gay or bombers used in the attack on Dresden. 7th Cavalry Troopers look great unless you put them in a diorama riding down and sabre slashing indian children and women. SS Officers seem touchy but Mongol Chieftans win shows yet the Mongols exterminated 29 million people during the Golden Horde.

I'm not picking a fight with anyone, just tumbling the various and valid ideologies over out loud. The forum has fostered several discussions regarding these subjects and in each case I think what it came down to was build what you want to build, don't get upset if someone blows a fuse on you if you enter it in a show. (There isn't a perfect piece that will not offend or cannot have some sort of offense correlated with it that someone can pick at.) Its no ones decsion but yours what you should, can or cannot build. If IPMS judges feel it is inappropriate they can put it behind a barrier for controlled viewing. Otherwise you roll the dice and take your chances. If we tried to accomodate everyones sensibilities, we wouldn't build anything.

Good luck and send us some pics (with appropriate warnings if necessary) when you're finished.

I like to shave any bases off the figures as it will be easier to moun them and you won't have to worry about covering the base. Run some wires up the legs and use them to attach to the ground work.

Mike

Thanks for all your comments. I assure you, my interest in this subject is not sensational or crass. I am a university professor who teaches teachers. One of my best friends teaches the book Red Cap. This is a story of a drummer boy who along with his unit is captured and sent to Andersonville. He draws the attention of the conferate commandant and is asked to drum drills for the camp garrison. He does so and smuggles food and goods into the camp for his friends inside. So essentially, the scene will capture images from the book. I have done extensive research and will not in any way sensationalize the idea. As a teacher, I know it is important to keep a balance in what is displayed.

On a technical question, do most of you remove the base from figures, even at 1/72 scale? and what is the best way to attach them to the ground?

Mike F

Oh, and back on subject, there is lot to be said for good intentions, but depending on the actual depiction, this is one area where those intentions are going to be questioned.

Matt

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike F QUOTE: Originally posted by jedi_mike8 Has anybody done a dio for the concentration camps? Well, just wondering Hi, I am new to the forum and have some dio experience, I am just beginning a project to make a 1/72 dio of Andersonville. I am using bits and pieces from many different kits including figures from Imex, Revell, Iteri and others. My plan will include scenes from the Turner movie as well as research from books and pictures. I will show the deadline and have a prisioner being shot for crossing it. I will have a dead wagon picking up bodies, etc. Canvas covers will be made from old sailing ship model sails, etc. Just starting so it will be awile before I have anything to share. MF

Hey, welcome to the forums Mike!

Can't wait to see your dio.

Matt

We as modelers have been given a talent and I think we shouldn't abuse it, but use it in great ways. If people want to learn about the halocaust or conc. camps they can read a history book or go to a museum, but if they are going to a modeling show to relax and have fun I don't want to ruin it by putting something there that doesn't belong. The pain of war shouldn't be sugar coated if we show it in a dio but there are things that are and are not aprriopriate to do.

Years ago, FSM had a dio of a Cambodian refuge bus on its cover. I remember thinking even at that time (I was 14 or so) that the subject was very depressing.

I guess some people feel compelled to make a diorama of an atrocity or disaster of some sort.

Regards,

I too have also thought about modeling a dio fo said subject, but upon reflection my opinion is that of armormaster .....doing a train is almost over that line that divides tasteful and down right unacceptable. But that is just my opinion

QUOTE: This is a very touchy subject and unless very carefully done, you'll get a lot of flak about it if you plan on displaying it

No kidding. My grandfather was in the Battle of the Bulge in WW2 and he doesn't even want to talk about it because of the battle and because of what the Nazis left behind. I would never do a holocaust dio. I want to bring the realizm of war to the public, but concentration camps were full of unspeakable and un-modelable horrors. You could do it I guess, but it would just offend so many people. I think there is a line that you can't cross when modeling bad things like that and I wouldn't want to cross it. I'm not trying to hide what happened, I just don't think it needs to be modeled. It's fine with civilians going into a train, but to model the actual atrosities would be horrible.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jedi_mike8 Has anybody done a dio for the concentration camps? Well, just wondering

This is a very touchy subject and unless very carefully done, you'll get a lot of flak about it if you plan on displaying it. IPMS's National rules allow this only in a restricted access area. At another site, there was a big to do about a very powerful Holocaust related diorama depicting the execution of civilians.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jedi_mike8 Has anybody done a dio for the concentration camps? Well, just wondering

Hi,
I am new to the forum and have some dio experience, I am just beginning a project to make a 1/72 dio of Andersonville. I am using bits and pieces from many different kits including figures from Imex, Revell, Iteri and others. My plan will include scenes from the Turner movie as well as research from books and pictures. I will show the deadline and have a prisioner being shot for crossing it. I will have a dead wagon picking up bodies, etc. Canvas covers will be made from old sailing ship model sails, etc. Just starting so it will be awile before I have anything to share.

MF