Vietnam Quad 50 emplacement - completed, fotos

OK, planning going on. I drew the following diagram to start off:

I also have a picture frame which is 180x210 mm I'd like to use. This will mean the bunker will fit in the frame pretty tight. In addition to the gunner I'll try to pose one or two ammo loaders in light gear on top of the bunker, plus several ammo boxes.

If you have any ideas or comments, please let me know. In the meantime the Quad is WIP in the armor forum, if anybody is interested. Happy modelling to all, and have a nice day

Pawel

Pawel wrote:

Hello everybody! I'm planning a diorama inspired by this foto: I'm looking for hints on how would such emplacement look like: how many people would be around, would it be OK if only the gunner was in his seat, where and how would the ammo be stored, and maybe someone has any info about old french bunkers. Internet says the foto was taken in the vincinity of Dong Ha -any info will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and have a nice day Pawel

Pawel,

can I ask you what your source is for the photo?

gary

Here ya go, Gary...

http://www.vietnam.net.pl/M55/

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Here ya go, Gary... http://www.vietnam.net.pl/M55/

reason I sked was that the bunker looks very familure, as well as the structure behind it. Very similar to A102

gary

Herr von Hammer, its really something special to have you on my thread. Sorry to hear about your health issues, I hope you get better soon.

Gary, the list loads the foto from my server, www.vietnam.net.pl, but I got it from http://www.landscaper.net/villages.htm. It can also be seen at http://www.vspa.com/aspprotect/dh-heavy-wpns.htm. It's a foto by Terry Sandman, LM 39, DN, 366th SPS; DET DH, 1/366th SPS, 1966-1967

Now everything that I have for this dio is that one little foto. I'm afraid I know too little about this particular place to be exact in my dio, so I only wanted to use it as an inspiration. You already helped me a lot Gary, but maybe you could tell me more about what the A102 was and if I can use this knowledge in my dio. Thanks in advance for any info!

Pawel wrote:

Herr von Hammer, its really something special to have you on my thread. Sorry to hear about your health issues, I hope you get better soon. Gary, the list loads the foto from my server, www.vietnam.net.pl, but I got it from http://www.landscaper.net/villages.htm. It can also be seen at http://www.vspa.com/aspprotect/dh-heavy-wpns.htm. It's a foto by Terry Sandman, LM 39, DN, 366th SPS; DET DH, 1/366th SPS, 1966-1967 Now everything that I have for this dio is that one little foto. I'm afraid I know too little about this particular place to be exact in my dio, so I only wanted to use it as an inspiration. You already helped me a lot Gary, but maybe you could tell me more about what the A102 was and if I can use this knowledge in my dio. Thanks in advance for any info!

Dong Ha was about a hundred fifty miles north of the place I called home, but I'd almost swear that bunker was the one we stored Russian and Chi Com ammo in. And the structure right behind it looks very similar to what we called the "alamo", but after looking at it some more it may be a little taller. Probably the same bunch of Sea Bees did the concrete work on both places.

gary

Pawel wrote:

Herr von Hammer, its really something special to have you on my thread. Sorry to hear about your health issues, I hope you get better soon. Gary, the list loads the foto from my server, www.vietnam.net.pl, but I got it from http://www.landscaper.net/villages.htm. It can also be seen at http://www.vspa.com/aspprotect/dh-heavy-wpns.htm. It's a foto by Terry Sandman, LM 39, DN, 366th SPS; DET DH, 1/366th SPS, 1966-1967 Now everything that I have for this dio is that one little foto. I'm afraid I know too little about this particular place to be exact in my dio, so I only wanted to use it as an inspiration. You already helped me a lot Gary, but maybe you could tell me more about what the A102 was and if I can use this knowledge in my dio. Thanks in advance for any info!

looked at the photos on the website, and brought back some smiles here and there. Never knew there was ever and air strip at Baldy! Most of the pics are from the very top of the place as it's really a giant rock pile right off highway one. Spent the night there several times. That's a Marine unit on Ross changing barrels in the field. I remember them well as the were placed just east of the huge chopper  pad on Ross, and right next to a 175 SPG Battery. We used Ross a couple times as a staging area for ops in the Que Son Valley due west of there (you can see a little of the place in the Ross photos). The tracks down by Duc Pho are either elements of the 17th CAV or most probably E Troop 1st of the 1st CAV (armored). Did a couple ops down there with both units right after Tet in 1968. The one photo of Chu Lai is way up on the extreme northern part of Chu Lai, and is right next to the helecopter refueling pad with the runway ending about 400 yards behind them. Plei Me was never over run, but combat evolved into a face to face order of battle with the good guys comming out on top.

gary

Herr von Hammer, its really something special to have you on my thread. Sorry to hear about your health issues, I hope you get better soon.

Thanks.. I assure you that I'll still be my curmudgeonly ol' self for some time to come, pard...

Gary, would it be posiible for you to draw a rough sketch of the layout of the bunker you wrote about? I'm especially interested in how the entrance was laid out, it there were any other openings on it and if it had any inner walls. From what I heard, the bunker at Dong Ha was one of many old french bunkers found all over Vietnam. As I understand it, many of them have this "alamo" guard tower on top of them. I wonder how these towers were connected to the rest of the bunker and what primary purpose bunkers like these were ment for. As in your previous mails, it's rather clear the quad 50 is laid for 270 degrees arc of fire and it would probably often shoot with negative elevations if things got really hot.

Anyhow the planning of the dio seems to be giong good and the quad itself is progressing as well. Thanks for your attention and have a nice day

Pawel

Pawel wrote:

Gary, would it be posiible for you to draw a rough sketch of the layout of the bunker you wrote about? I'm especially interested in how the entrance was laid out, it there were any other openings on it and if it had any inner walls. From what I heard, the bunker at Dong Ha was one of many old french bunkers found all over Vietnam. As I understand it, many of them have this "alamo" guard tower on top of them. I wonder how these towers were connected to the rest of the bunker and what primary purpose bunkers like these were ment for. As in your previous mails, it's rather clear the quad 50 is laid for 270 degrees arc of fire and it would probably often shoot with negative elevations if things got really hot. Anyhow the planning of the dio seems to be giong good and the quad itself is progressing as well. Thanks for your attention and have a nice day Pawel

watch for a PM this weekend. I've even got an aerial photo of A102, and might be able to blow it up thru Photoshop. But will tell you in advance it's not gonna look like what you think it does! Actually most so called Alamos didn't have the tower per say, but if there was one in place you might use it as part of the bunker complexes that over saw the high ground so often centeralized in an SF camp. Every camp was different, and a few were very elaborate; while others looked only slightly better than a trash pile.

    Back to the quad fifty a bit. 90% of the time a quad fifty was used to knock on the other guys door to let him know he was on your mind. They were never really an offensive weapon due to their immobility and weight. It was soon learned that placement was key to their success. By placement I mean setting up fields of fire. This is one reason why they are usually up on high ground, but with their back side protected. Crew protection is really important with a quad fifty as it dosn't take long to realize that they are a true "mortar magnet."

gary

Gary, now I finally got it! You mean a special forces camp. I read about it in the book on SF camps by Osprey, very interesting.

For the reasons you described I think the bunker setup not only provides good fields of fire, but also a good display opportunity for a modeller.

Thanks again for your help, this build gets a chance for an extra quality because of your help. I wish you a nice weekend and hope to hear from you soon

Pawel

Pawel wrote:

Gary, now I finally got it! You mean a special forces camp. I read about it in the book on SF camps by Osprey, very interesting. For the reasons you described I think the bunker setup not only provides good fields of fire, but also a good display opportunity for a modeller. Thanks again for your help, this build gets a chance for an extra quality because of your help. I wish you a nice weekend and hope to hear from you soon Pawel

first of all let me tell you I'm sorry for not getting the P.M. to you as promised. PC blew up like a claymore mine Saturday afternoon. Bad case of Dellitis! Now I'm in the middle of reconfiguring my entire system, and so far it's about as much fun as breaking your thumbs.

      The so called term "Alamo" really is taken from the idea that this is where we make our last stand, or this is where we're going to die at. It's a known rallying point when the place has unwelcome visitors inside the perimeter. It's also the place everybody makes his way to just to find out who's still around. I only did the Alamo thing a couple times thank God. Some camps just had a massive underground sandbaged bunker system, and others used a purpose built concrete bunker complex. Just depended on how long you planed on being stuck there, and what the next avenue of escape was for you. So places had no real escape route, and others did.

gary

Hello Gary!

Like Forrest Gump said - it happens... Or in case of computers you could say IT happens (like aye tee, the computer science). You got that one right, with the fun.

I wanted to ask you if you have ever seen feeding ammo into a M2 machine gun from a cut-off jerry can?

I hope you can reconfigure your computer without too much trouble, wish you a nice day

Pawel

Pawel wrote:

Hello Gary! Like Forrest Gump said - it happens... Or in case of computers you could say IT happens (like aye tee, the computer science). You got that one right, with the fun. I wanted to ask you if you have ever seen feeding ammo into a M2 machine gun from a cut-off jerry can? I hope you can reconfigure your computer without too much trouble, wish you a nice day Pawel

funny you ask that question! I'll tell you a story that may answer your question. In January 1969 about half of my company was attached to a batallion of the 101st Airborne up on LZ West. Why we were that far removed I don't know, but it was an idea from a higher power. When we arrived on that mountain top they put us down on the extreme west end of the place. We had the place all to ourselves except for a quad fifty and a lone 106mm recoiless rifle placed about a hundred yards east of us. They told us we per completely safe up there as the place was so hard to get to. WRONG! I had this uneasy feeling about being placed twenty five feet from that quad fifty, and my thoughts were proven out about one in the morning when they threw grenades at the quad fifty. Well of course they shot the place up for about fifteen minutes, and I walked over to see what this contraption was doing. I was then put into employment carrying fifty caliber belts to the loaders. They simply layed the belts in the existing cans mounted on the gun. On about the third trip over there I looked up at the section chief, and noticed he was a kid I was in high school with! How often does that happen?

     Back to the question. I can't recall ever seeing anybody use a gas can to hold fifty caliber ammo. Maybe they did, but I never saw anybody myself. The cans on each gun (all four of them) are the big opnes you often see ontop of tanks, and when fully loaded are pretty heavy to handle. So the guys I was around loaded belts in the existing cans. I did see one ACAV that used a bomb fuse can with about a thousand rounds in it. They had a plywood divider in the middle.

gary

Hello Gary!

I've seen you found my thread in the Armor forum here: /forums/1207393/ShowPost.aspx. If you don't mind, I'd like to continue this very interesting discussion on the mount itself there, while focusing on the diorama of the emplacement here.

It's an interesting story to hear, and one that makes you say "Isn't the world small". It must have been a lot of work to get all this lead flying...

By the way, how's your computer doing? I still don't have the final idea on hot to plan that bunker with the guard tower.

As always looking forward to hear from you, have a nice day

Pawel

Pawel wrote:

Hello Gary! I've seen you found my thread in the Armor forum here: /forums/1207393/ShowPost.aspx. If you don't mind, I'd like to continue this very interesting discussion on the mount itself there, while focusing on the diorama of the emplacement here. It's an interesting story to hear, and one that makes you say "Isn't the world small". It must have been a lot of work to get all this lead flying... By the way, how's your computer doing? I still don't have the final idea on hot to plan that bunker with the guard tower. As always looking forward to hear from you, have a nice day Pawel

PC is up, but the scanner needs software. Hope to have it going tomorrow afternoon, or else another scanner. My acid reflex seems to have finally broke (was really sick for a couple weeks)

      Anyway I have rough sketches for you to look at, and then I redo them for you. Also ran accross some interseting photos to share with you (LZ West, and maybe a few out of Thien Phouc if you lucky). But there's no quad fifty in them, but lots of bunker complexes. Funny thing about a couple of them is that they are taken from where the quad fifty sat in West, or maybe the bunker twenty five feet away I stayed in.

have not forgot you, I'm just moving slow these days

gary

Gary,

sorry to hear about your health problems, I hope you get better soon!

I'd hate to rush you, I was always taught a modeller has to be patient, so please, take your time. You were already a big help for me.

It's indeed funny with the fotos, sometimes one would wish the foto could be "reversed" somehow to see the place the foto was taken from...

Anyhow, I'm waiting patiently for the bunkers and wish you a nice day

Pawel

Hello everybody!

After a long holiday break I finally got to building something. And I have some pictures for you! First let me remind what I'm aiming for:

First thing, I switched to a somewhat bigger frame, now it's 210x290 mm. I started cutting two pieces of expanded polystyrene foam (EPS) - one to represent the bunker itself, the other to make the terrain. Then I traced the base of the bunker on the terrain and cut a closely fitting opening in it, like shown below:

Then I could start shaping the terrain. I worked with a sharp knife, but the EPS particles were flying everywhere anyhow, it's a messy job I tell you. I also cut openings in the bunker for the entrance and the firing ports.

Then I test-fitted the bunker to the terrain and also made sides for the diorama out of thin plywood:

Then I glued the sides together, so that they closely fit the frame. I used thin strips of wood at the corners for reinforcements:

Then I put the base together and glued everything with a glue gun, paying close attention to the alignment:

Then I could put the bunker in:

It even starts to look like something, doesnt it?

Finally I went for the turret, made out of fiddly little pieces of EPS:

What do you think? Looking forward for your comments, I wish you happy modelling and have a nice day

Pawel

Hello everybody!

Hope somebody reads this, if so here are more fotos. Now I'm rendering the EPS with some acrylic filler I picked up in a plumbing store. I had some work with the tower, but now it's round, after 3 layers of filler and I do the walls. The firing ports are going to be tough spots. I'm trying to recreate the marks the formwor would leave on the walls by impressing a scale plank in the drying filler. Anyhow, here's what the dio now looks like:

Still waiting for your comments. Happy modelling and have a nice day

Pawel

Looking great!  You make it look so easy to make using the foam.  Maybe I should give it a shot one day.  Thanks for sharing!

Gentlemen...

We did have a quad 50 on LZ West.(on the north side) ...I am the owner of Co C 4/31 196th LIB google group and ill try posting the picture later this morning ...my chalet was about  100yrd east of it (when we were on the rock).

Frenchie

Andy - thanks for commenting. I wouldn't say carving the foam is hard. Just messy. With a sharp knive it's easy, if you have an idea what you want to get, I think you should definitely give it a try.

Frenchie - welcome to the forums. I need as much feedback from people who have been THERE as I can get, so that I don't make any stupid mistakes on this build. So please stay tuned.

And now for more fotos - I filled the groundwork. Since I ran out of filler I got me a new can, this time different color and I got a feeling this could be practical. Here's what I got so far:

And these are the tools I use

There we have a sanding grid with holder, an additional sanding grid (for the insides of the tower), a spatula and a "stamp" I made out of ice cream sticks, used to impress the formwork patterns in the wet filler.

I'm planning to add a few crates and sandbags before painting and then go and paint the bunker. And then I slowly start to run out of ideas. What I have to work on is the fine details of the layout and, what I'm more afraid of, the vegetation. If somebody have some idea - here is the right time and place to share. Thanks in advance, have a nice day

Pawel

Hello everybody!

Movin' on with the dio. Recently I filled the cracks the drying filler left and tried to attach some sand to the drying filler. That didn't work too well, so I used the method my little brother invented for his model railroad layout - you just lay out sand and soak it with future. After it dries, it's hard. I also painted the bunker with a black wash for that concrete gray look and fitted some sandbags (that probably blocked the water from entering the bunker) and an ammo crate, looking like it served as a step. On my dio there will ba a path from the bunker entrance to the quad looking like a good way to carry ammo. I think now it's time for some airbrush work. Here is a foto of my work so far:

Just can't wait to get a comment on this one, have a nice day

Pawel

   WOW!!!.....i'm very impressed!

   I have often wanted to build a bunker for a dio but never really thought of a good way to do it. You have shown a very simple and effective way to build one. You do make it look very easy. Looking foward to seeing some paint and weathering on this. You are really capturing the feel of the real life photo.

   Only thing i could point out is the sand. In my opinion, using real sand to simulate sand doesn't seem to work. I always think the real sand is way too coarse. I think you are better of with extremely fine dirt. The dirt we here in the countryside where i live is like talcum powder. It is really fine and works quite well for sand. The hard part is getting the dirt to be a sand colour. Mind you, the dirt here is already quite a good sand colour.

   Or, once i experimented with plaster when i was building model railways. Lay down the plaster as usual and when it is starting to dry, spread dry plaster dust over it. The plaster dust sticks but doesn't disappear into the thick plaster base underneath. When it drys you have a fairly smooth but at the same time, grainy finish.

   Maybe somebody else has other ideas.

   You are doing really well with this dio base. To me though, the coarse sand spoils your efforts a little. Just my opinion. Your work is really great and has given me the solution to how i would want build a bunker.

    Look foward to seeing more.

    Boomer...

Hello Boomer,

thanks a lot for your comment and I'm glad you like my work so far. Nothing is finished yet, so I'll give the sand areas a thought. Getting good dirt in winter isn't so easy, so I'll probably go with plaster and will paint it later. That would allow me to blend everything nicely... The experiment will show. Please stay tuned and have a nice day

Pawel

Hello!

I added some finer sand made of dry plaster of paris sprinkled on wet future. The bit rougher gauge shows through a bit, but I like the effect. I also added the concrete post on the tower, on which the tarp will be draped. I made it of the same filler the rest of the bunker is made of, but it's reinforced with a long piece of plastic sprue for stability. One more black wash went over the bunker and this time I tried to get some rain streaks and I think I succeded. You can see it on the fotos below:

As the cat shots are fashionable nowadays, I couldn't pass on posting this one:

Next thing I did was to mix some artist's acrylics and spraying them through the airbrush:

I also started working on various items that have to be on the dio, like the sandbag threshold (Italeri sandbag kit), the step-crate (Academy tank supplies) and the ammo boxes (AFV Club) that were cut up some to not look so orderly

What do you think about the colors? I also still have a problem that I don't know what other stuff to put next to the Quad. I thought about some water container (don't know which type?), Gas can, spare barrel, food container, c-rat cartons, casette recorder? For example casette recoreder would need batteries that were hard to get far away from the PX, so I'll probably skip this one. Please help friends!

Looking forward to your comments, have a nice day

Pawel

~Pawel! This is very very cool mate!

I don't know how this build has squeeked by me 'til now--I find it very interesting and I can definately relate to your construction tech--very logical stuff. Thsi is going to look awsome once you expand the pallete a little and finalize the paintwork.  I was interested imediately seeing your diagram

I guess you pretty much stuck the plan very well. Are you going to have the quad aiming at the slopes or just off into the sky like the photo?   ~Can't wait to see the finished build----lock 'n load!

Hello Adam,

thanks for the comment. I'm watching your Tunisia build with interest too.

I'm going to depart from the foto a bit, adding more people (crew chief and two loaders) and showing the quad with negative elevation. I heard from Gary it was pretty important, as the quad was usually set up higher than its potential targets.

As for the colors - I'm adding them slowly. I didn't do too many dios in my life, and the last one was done years ago, so I have a lot to learn. But I'll go the German way (langsam aber sicher - slow but sure) and I hope for the best.

Next will be the tarps and static grass, so please stay tuned, and have a nice day

Pawel

That's looking good, very accurate to the picture.

Nice work.