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Diorama "The Impenetrable Tank"

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  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: The Socialist Republik of California
Posted by Sic Semper Tyrannis! on Saturday, August 23, 2008 6:15 PM
 Model Maniac wrote:

Diorama "The Impenetrable Tank" using Italeri's Tiger Ausf.E/H1 and Dragon's German Infantry (Tunisia 1943) - By "Art Instructor":

 

 

For more pics please try my latest page:

http://www.falconbbs.com/model43a.htm

Comments and suggestions are welcome!

I see nothing in MM's original post about this vignette taking place in N. Africa. Sure, he used Dragon's "Tunisia 1943" figs but that means nothing. Nor is the Tiger marked with any unit insignia that would lead me to believe that this is taking place in N. Africa. I'm not trying to be a smart-butt or anything but I saw many initial posts criticizing the artist for inaccuracies pertaining to this theatre.

Best Wishes,

SST

On the losing end of a wishbone, and I won't pretend not to mind. ----------------------------------------------------------- 1/35 Dragon SdKfz 251/1 sMG Various 1/35 Figures 1/35 Dragon Stug III Ausf B. (Balkans)
  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:37 AM

 sfcmac wrote:
 Wow pretty keen observations. I will be certain to inquire your alls opinion on my armor builds. It is amazing what can be learned in these post.

 

Lot's of great opinions, for sure!

That's why some guys are afraid to post here.  There is a fine line between "Pointing Out" and "Pointing At"

rb

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Thailand
Posted by Model Maniac on Thursday, August 7, 2008 9:36 PM

Thanks, doog, for your kind comments and suggestions. I think AI knew that trick too but he just wanted to do it OOB.

zokissima, I see nothing wrong with the fenders. Maybe that's your thought alone, nobody else mentioned about them. ;-)

Impressive Songs:

All 10 Playlists that I created on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ModelManiacThailand/playlists

Pan Flute Music (300 songs) (Most Popular, over 100K views):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZO7alagEPsEMzgBkWt4-vKV

El Condor Pasa (Top 50) (World's most famous and my most favorite song):

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZOLKHbju350mLle4HkMhsb8

  • Member since
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  • From: Portland, Oregon
Posted by fantacmet on Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:26 PM
I'm not a big expert on the historical aspect so overall it looks fine to me.  Looks like he screwed up on the tracks though, they seem to be out of alignment by quite a bit.

    

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Pineapple Country, Queensland, Australia
Posted by Wirraway on Monday, July 21, 2008 6:46 PM

Yeah,   this one just keeps going on........and on..........and on..............doesnt it ?

And to think that someone was once unkind enough to coin the phrase "rivet counters"

"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional"

" A hobby should pass the time - not fill it"  -Norman Bates

 

GIF animations generator gifup.com

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted by zokissima on Monday, July 21, 2008 11:37 AM

*sigh* MM, your posts provide some much needed traffic to this particular forum. I think the colouration and the finish of the Tiger is very well done, but as mentioned, I don't really like the look of the heated plastic fenders. There are just too many curves to depict properly dented sheet metal.

 

As for everything else in this thread, it was expected, but I gotta say, the behaiviour and discussion in this thread is exponentially better than the MM threads of old. Although I lol'd hard at the pedantic nature of discussing the plausability of a shell-impact size and pattern depicted on a plastic model kit, the thread did deliver some good historical info, particularily in discussing what equipment was available in which place and at what time.

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Monday, July 21, 2008 12:31 AM

Well if you've pleased someone enough to make such a complimentary speech to you then what we say really doesn't matter, MM! Good for you, and Art Instructor, for the impression that you made on your friend. That's what good modeling is supposed to do anyway, in the end!

ONe thing--If Art Instructor ever does a project like this again, he could thicken the plastic of the model by adding plates of styrene behind the places where he is going to place the "hits"; that way, you wouldn't be limmited by the scale thickness/thinness of the model, and you could make deeper hits for greater realism.

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Thailand
Posted by Model Maniac on Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:40 PM
Many thanks for all kind comments, compliments, and suggestions! Your responses are overwhelming and I enjoy reading them. So much have been said about the plausibility of this dio, tank and uniforms, so I don't have to say anything about it. But I'd like to thank Mr. SSY - a fellow modeler and Big Brother of the Modelers Society Of Thailand - who origated the idea of a beat-up Tiger and requested that Art Instructor do the job. There's no doubt that his comments on the dio is most important to me. I got it a few days ago and I thought I have to translate them for you all. I spent an hour or so doing the translation job, here's his comments on a local board:

"Thanks to MM and Art Instructor who created virtual work for us modelers to admire. The Red 122 has told about the things that it and its masters had faced together severely and near calamity, with maddening valor and professionalism of its masters that helped maintain its existence - until it emerged out to tell the story of how it almost died and left bodies and lives in the battlefield. The shell marks around it are Medals of Valor which the enemy whole-heartedly and intentionally attached with rage and resentment, and evidences of incomparable engineering work, a dignity that its masters will shout the world over that we are brave men.

With my respect to those reading this, try assuming yourself as the commander of the Red 122 on the land of France in June 1944. On your front both left and right are full of Cromwell, Comet, Churchill and Sherman, and complemented with 6 Pounder Anti Tank Guns.... All the enemy tanks are dusting the terrain coming up to you and shooting at you madly, you fight and fire back tirelessly .. fire.. fire and be fired.. you shout your command amid the sound of explosions around you.. the driver drives full forward.. the gunner fires.. the driver makes a sharp left turn.. the gunner fires.. the loader changes round from HEAT to APC.. the gunner is ready,, fire!.. the driver make a rightest turn.. the gunner fires.. the radio operator orders both wings to pan out and keep firing.. don't stop.. the gunner turns the turret in front.. fires.. machine gunner fires wide array of bullets to infantrymen carrying Bazooka and zigzagzing forward.. fast.. the driver makes a full traverse.. the gunner fires... sorry.. INTERMISSION.....SSY

The clothes and bodies of you and your crew are wet with sweat, faces are blackened, full with gun smoke. Inside the tank it is full with smoke and smell of gun powder, the sound of guns and explosions rattles and the tank shatters allover. You cannot tell which was the sound of your gun and which was the sound of shell hitting your hull.. then suddenly there is a deep silence and everyone doesn't hear a thing until the the voice of the driver alerts them up again.. at the front and the left front the enemy stops movement.. the driver stops.. changes gear to low.. you look around through all the periscopes.. reach your hand to unlock and push the cupola cover out and spring yourself up to sit on the rim.. hand still clenching the MG-34 handle. You breath fresh air filling your lung, body shake incontrollably because of what you see in front ... (to be con'd)

There are dead bodies of soldiers all around, the parts of human carcass abound, blood soak and dot the ground, the remains of tank catching fire, the disgusting smell of humun flesh burning fresh, the steel scraps from exploded tanks are all around, small metal pieces flying. You look down to survey your Red 122 resolutely, you are proud in the sturdiness of the Red 122. Even though it is badly damaged, it still responds well to commands. For a moment you feel sleepy and you just can't imagine that 64 years later there would be two Thais who have never been to the battleground and have never seen the Red 122 in person, will remember your heroic actions and carefully create a virtual diorama to show to modelers the world over so that they know about your "fighting expertise". SSY

To MM, the craters seem to be a bit shallow when compared to their diameters. I know well that they couldn't be made any deeper because of limitation of plastic parts' thickness. The next one let it be the Sherman, this time you won't have to worry about the plastic thickness because whatever gun it is, it always passes through. Tell Art Instructor for more. Even German panzergrenadiers still admired that Sherman is a good tank suitable for firing and thrashing!?!...
Ever since I viewed armor models at my old house up to the present house, there has never been once that I could imagine so much and so meaningfully like this time. My sincere admiration and congratulation to Art Instructor's work... SSY"

Impressive Songs:

All 10 Playlists that I created on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ModelManiacThailand/playlists

Pan Flute Music (300 songs) (Most Popular, over 100K views):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZO7alagEPsEMzgBkWt4-vKV

El Condor Pasa (Top 50) (World's most famous and my most favorite song):

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZOLKHbju350mLle4HkMhsb8

  • Member since
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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Saturday, July 19, 2008 9:01 PM
 sfcmac wrote:

 bbrowniii  wrote " mmmmm...Confused <img src=" border="0" width="19" height="15" />  I'll be honest with you, Aaron, that I am not sure how to take your reply.  It I take it literally, then I must conclude that you missed my point...  If I take it tongue in cheek, then I guess there is no real need to reply at all.... Make a Toast <img src=" border="0" width="16" height="16" />"

 Ah for the record good sir everything I say is meant in good humor and not to be hurtful! You Marines be a tough honorable lot.

That being said Agent G We Army Guys that rode as opposed to walking always refered to you all as crunchys! ( The sound the skull being crushed inside the helmet during a pivot steer) LOL

 Being retired I work with some retired USMC and we are pretty intolerable when we get going.

 OOOOOO WAAAA1 ( Army translation is HOOOOO AHHH!)

 

Aaron, I'll tell you one thing... you are crackin' me up!!! Big Smile [:D]Thumbs Up [tup]

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:08 PM

 bbrowniii  wrote " mmmmm...Confused <img src=" border="0" width="19" height="15" />  I'll be honest with you, Aaron, that I am not sure how to take your reply.  It I take it literally, then I must conclude that you missed my point...  If I take it tongue in cheek, then I guess there is no real need to reply at all.... Make a Toast <img src=" border="0" width="16" height="16" />"

 Ah for the record good sir everything I say is meant in good humor and not to be hurtful! You Marines be a tough honorable lot.

That being said Agent G We Army Guys that rode as opposed to walking always refered to you all as crunchys! ( The sound the skull being crushed inside the helmet during a pivot steer) LOL

 Being retired I work with some retired USMC and we are pretty intolerable when we get going.

 OOOOOO WAAAA1 ( Army translation is HOOOOO AHHH!)

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:50 PM
 sfcmac wrote:

 Ah Mr. Brown. Your Semper Fi gives ye away as the type that tend to be a little thin skinned. I absolutely love the Marines. I hope that when you find your job and your place things settle down for you. As far as time for the hobby? We have a little less everyday, do what you must, pay the bills and fill the role but don't forget to live a little lest ye lose yerself along the way.Pirate [oX)]

 That being said tis better not to be thinned skinned but that is easier said than done.

  Oh yeah Doog if you and Manney criticed me I am sure my feelings would be crushed and all that would be left is for me to become a lowley troll.  Didn't mean to single you fellers out , your post just came to mind.Cowboy [C):-)]

Ummmmm...Confused [%-)]  I'll be honest with you, Aaron, that I am not sure how to take your reply.  It I take it literally, then I must conclude that you missed my point...  If I take it tongue in cheek, then I guess there is no real need to reply at all.... Make a Toast [#toast]

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:46 PM
 agentg wrote:

That ladies is why I was a grunt, I can get REAL small, REAL fast!

Said it before, I can run faster scared than that tank can turn.

Semper Fi

Right there with ya, brother!  SEMPER FI!

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, July 18, 2008 9:44 PM

 sfcmac wrote:
 No real meaning other than the truth hurts and those brave enough to say it can find themselves target by the vile green beasties. I respect your work, your opinions but mostly your ability to tell it like it is!
Big Smile [:D]....lets hope they're gone under the bridges...

Thanks, sfcmac! Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Friday, July 18, 2008 1:44 PM
 No real meaning other than the truth hurts and those brave enough to say it can find themselves target by the vile green beasties. I respect your work, your opinions but mostly your ability to tell it like it is!
  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, July 18, 2008 12:48 PM
 sfcmac wrote:

  Oh yeah Doog if you and Manney criticed me I am sure my feelings would be crushed and all that would be left is for me to become a lowley troll.  Didn't mean to single you fellers out , your post just came to mind.Cowboy [C):-)]

Uh......hmmmm.....I'm not sure what you mean by that, but gosh, the LAST THING I want is for my lowly opinion to be some sort of yardstick by which to measure someone's builds!

Truth is, for every "rivet"-type accuracy-comment I make, I make two "artistic" ones that more often than not miss significant details that others catch! I tend to go more for "Art" than I do absolute "Accuracy".

I try not to "crush" anyone's feelings. I hope I've been diplomatic in that regard?.... 

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Friday, July 18, 2008 12:42 PM

 Ah Mr. Brown. Your Semper Fi gives ye away as the type that tend to be a little thin skinned. I absolutely love the Marines. I hope that when you find your job and your place things settle down for you. As far as time for the hobby? We have a little less everyday, do what you must, pay the bills and fill the role but don't forget to live a little lest ye lose yerself along the way.Pirate [oX)]

 That being said tis better not to be thinned skinned but that is easier said than done.

  Oh yeah Doog if you and Manney criticed me I am sure my feelings would be crushed and all that would be left is for me to become a lowley troll.  Didn't mean to single you fellers out , your post just came to mind.Cowboy [C):-)]

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Friday, July 18, 2008 12:00 PM
 the doog wrote:

 acmodeler01 wrote:
If MM didn't post this, we wouldn't have all this valuable information or this nice debate. Seems he is a pretty good catalyst, accurate model or not.
I was thinking ofthe same thing.

I realize too, that a loy of guys have a "thing" with MM's posts--I used to too, until I realized that MM isn't a bad guy--he likes to collect models and show them off; he's not a historian or rivet-counter, he's just an armor enthusiast. It's not the worst habit someone could have, And I realized long ago that I'm not the one to judge his "arrangements" with his builders.

Well said, Doog.  I personally think that some people who have the 'thing' for MM tend to see one of his posts and open it up SPECIFICALLY open it up and search for flaws, to tear it apart, just for the sake of ripping him a new one  Ignoring the proverbial forest for the trees as it were.  When I first got active in the forum about two years ago, and 'learned' about who MM was, I wanted to be one of those people.  I thought I was somehow preserving the dignity and integrity of the hobby, or some other such hoo-haa.  Then one day I realized that I actually enjoyed seeing his posts.  I like a lot of his (employees) work.  Sure, just about every one had some fundamental flaw or an odd juxtaposition of a really relaxed TC next to a bunch of grunts fighting for their lives.  But still, they are fun to look at, and for me, that became enough.

So I have decided to try to be more zen about the way I look at other peoples work...  or sumthin' like that.... Make a Toast [#toast]

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Friday, July 18, 2008 11:54 AM
 sfcmac wrote:

However I post to this forum to improve myself and share/ learn from/with others. Saying great work or Thumbs Up [tup] has meaning and is encouraging but the sometimes seemingly harsh comments are meant to push you harder and make you think about what you can do to get to the next level. When someone such as Manney says it's nice job I recken I'm doing pretty good if Doog says I pulled it off in an amateurish way he also gives a reason why and a suggestion to what he would do and it's up to me if I follow his advice.

 

Your points are all valid (even the ones I deleted), but just to be the proverbial monkey in the wrench, what if I don't care to improve myself.  I simply build for fun and like to share what I have done with others.  Is that OK?  Do I have to think about 'what I can do to get to the next level'?  And what about those people who give the criticism but not a suggestion.  (As an aside: I know the MM is a special case and that, for the most part, there are really very few people who point out flaws without some constructive ideas on how to correct/improve them, but still, it does happen...)

I'll use myself as an example - I WOULD love to get to the next level.  Heck I'd be happy to get to ANY level...Tongue [:P]  Thing is, I work three different teaching jobs during the school year, then I spend the summer home with my kids.  That makes me a VERY slow builder, because my time at the bench tends to be at 11:00 at night and the kids wake up at 5:00 in the morning...  So right now, I do the best I can, and I share what I do.  I like the feedback and the suggestions, but if I don't apply them to my next build and make all the same mistakes, that's OK too.  I have fun with my builds, flawed as they are, because I do this to relax.  Right now, the next level is the furthest thing from my mind.  Getting teaching materials ready, dentist appointments, mortgage payments, college funds, finding a REAL job - those are the things I am putting my effort into to get to the next level.   This hobby... this is just for me... and just for fun...  I do the best I can with what I've got....

We are now treading further and further away from MM's dio and more into frequently hashed over topics about why we model and what level of detail/realism is 'required' etc....  A never ending debate, but a fun one, if you ask me....

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, July 18, 2008 7:39 AM

 acmodeler01 wrote:
If MM didn't post this, we wouldn't have all this valuable information or this nice debate. Seems he is a pretty good catalyst, accurate model or not.
I was thinking ofthe same thing.

I realize too, that a loy of guys have a "thing" with MM's posts--I used to too, until I realized that MM isn't a bad guy--he likes to collect models and show them off; he's not a historian or rivet-counter, he's just an armor enthusiast. It's not the worst habit someone could have, And I realized long ago that I'm not the one to judge his "arrangements" with his builders. Apparently he's helped them buy houses by loans that they're paying back to him by building models; hey, they could be scrubbing toilets, or shining shoes. I guess life is pretty good for Tuk and Art Instructor? 

Yeah, it's kinda frustrating that we never get to contact the builders directly, but really, when I reflect back on some of MM's posts, there has been a LOT--and I mean A LOT-- of very insightful, constructive debate about what would, or what might be theoretically possible in certain models and scenarios.

As Rob said, some of MM's models are actually very good, and are worth seeing for what they turn out like, even if they do contain repetitive problems-- like the shiny tracks -- and the ones that aren't provide plenty of opportunity to learn what NOT to do--which is just as valuable--if not more--than learning what to do!

Besides, MM has some really cute doogs too,; that's cool in my books!.....Whistling [:-^]

  • Member since
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  • From: Tulsa, OK
Posted by acmodeler01 on Friday, July 18, 2008 6:41 AM
 sfcmac wrote:

However I post to this forum to improve myself and share/ learn from/with others. Saying great work or Thumbs Up [tup] has meaning and is encouraging but the sometimes seemingly harsh comments are meant to push you harder and make you think about what you can do to get to the next level. When someone such as Manney says it's nice job I recken I'm doing pretty good if Doog says I pulled it off in an amateurish way he also gives a reason why and a suggestion to what he would do and it's up to me if I follow his advice.

This is a great point, and made me think: If MM didn't post this, we wouldn't have all this valuable information or this nice debate. Seems he is a pretty good catalyst, accurate model or not.

  • Member since
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  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Friday, July 18, 2008 2:10 AM

Thumbs Up [tup] I have been reading every reply for a while now. Seems to me everyone has a valid point and much can be learned from this.  I build models for fun and enjoyment not for profit or contest or anything else. If my kids think it is cool then I consider it a success and that is the only opinion that really digs deep into me.

However I post to this forum to improve myself and share/ learn from/with others. Saying great work or Thumbs Up [tup] has meaning and is encouraging but the sometimes seemingly harsh comments are meant to push you harder and make you think about what you can do to get to the next level. When someone such as Manney says it's nice job I recken I'm doing pretty good if Doog says I pulled it off in an amateurish way he also gives a reason why and a suggestion to what he would do and it's up to me if I follow his advice.

 Even if it is a personal thing with MM what I say is still valid.  It is a lot more work to dig and look and honestly critic in a contructive way. That being said you'll probably only get a Thumbs Up [tup] from me just cuz I don't consider myself on that level of expertise and I am kinda lazy.Whistling [:-^]

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  • From: Oregon, Rain country U.S.A.
Posted by russianfist on Friday, July 18, 2008 1:46 AM
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Hermesminiatures wrote:

I guess the whole issue here is that you shouldn't use any technique on a model when its happening in real life is highly unlikely.

 Why not?  It is a model after all, isn't it?  Something we build for fun, right?  If I wanted to paint my Tiger in red, white, and purple spots, would that be 'wrong' since it was unlikely to happen in 'real life'?  If he had fun, and exaggerated reality to suggest the raw and brutal power/toughness of the Tiger I, isn't that OK?

AMEN!!!! To that bbrownii

We ""HAVE" to use our imaginations when we build.

What did it look like, what was the situation, what kind of conditions were they in?

So many what if's!

We have to take all of this and much,much more in to consideration when we build just a kit not to mention a Diorama .

Can anyone even build a "PURE" exact replica?

If we pick at it to much it will just take all the fun out of it.

Would it place in an IPMS national?

I seriously doubt it, never the less I liked it.

And thats what counts to me.

 

You got a telegram from headquarters today. Headquarters--what is it? Well, it's a big building where generals meet, but that's not important right now. [ img] f_armorsecretm_ac7eb73[/ img]
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, July 18, 2008 1:06 AM

 

So much so in fact, that besides ruining the crew storage they would certainly have penetrated through the back of the turret.

  • Member since
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, July 18, 2008 1:05 AM
So much so in fact, that besides ruining the crew storage they would certainly have penetrated through the back of the turret.
  • Member since
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Posted by the doog on Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:44 PM
What a great debate--I find it all very entertaining and informative. So many points of view, hypotheticals, and facts!
  • Member since
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  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:59 PM

 bbrowniii wrote:
I also have to wonder if the nit-pickie-edness (IMHO) of the whole debate is exacerbated by the fact that this is a MM offering...

I was wondering about that myself. 

Wink [;)]

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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:19 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Hermesminiatures wrote:

I guess the whole issue here is that you shouldn't use any technique on a model when its happening in real life is highly unlikely.

 Why not?  It is a model after all, isn't it?  Something we build for fun, right?  If I wanted to paint my Tiger in red, white, and purple spots, would that be 'wrong' since it was unlikely to happen in 'real life'?  If he had fun, and exaggerated reality to suggest the raw and brutal power/toughness of the Tiger I, isn't that OK?

Good point, but based on previous replies form MM he DOES want his builders to create realistic modles/dios...

Manny,

Valid point, and believe me, I am not trying to jump to MM's defense here - I know there are a lot of strong opinions about him out there.  Still, I find it, dare I say, ridiculous, that we are getting our panties in a bunch debating whether or not this particular Tiger tank could have sustained such damage. 

I mean, how many Tigers saw action in North Africa?  Has anyone seen pictures of the damage withstood by every one of those tanks?  Is it unlikely this Tiger would take damage of this nature, probably.  But wasn't it really unlikely that the battleship Hood would be sunk by a single shot?  Or that the Titanic would sink at all?  Alot of 'unlikely' things happen, particularly on combat.

Maybe this tank got engaged by multiple M-10's simultaneously...

Maybe the tank was temporarily immobilized, preventing the driver from moving, allowing Allied gunners the chance to plunk away at it...

Maybe the Allies were a little raw and nervous and the appearance of the Tiger so unnerved them that they began to engage at the limit of the effective range of their weapons...

Maybe the damage to the turret bin was caused by shrapnel and not direct fire weapons...

The list of potential maybes goes on and on and on...

But when it comes right down to it, I like this dio.  I know there are some inaccuracies (probably a lot more than I can see - your catch of the SS eagle, for one...), but the damage doesn't bother me.  I think the exaggerated nature enhances the story... I'll consider it the Hollywood version of a dio and chock it all up to artistic license.

Ultimately I think that is what this debate/discussion boils down to: the age old modelers dillema of accuracy versus artistic license... 

I also have to wonder if the nit-pickie-edness (IMHO) of the whole debate is exacerbated by the fact that this is a MM offering...

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:50 PM
Doog...welcome back! Just to answer your doubting. Yes the M10 did see service in North Africa. Their use at El Guettar was on of the major factors in turning back 10th Panzer Divisions attack against US II Corps in March 1943. My point in listing all the different guns available was that there were some larger caliber guns that could have fired on Tigers in Tunisia. The first one captured by the Allies was actually disabled by a 6pdr! Not that it would have left any of those big scars. But potentially a 105mm  battery firing direct fire would leave damage of that sort on the frontal armor without penetrating. At both Kasserine and El Guettar, US Artillery batteries were overrrun by German armor. Off the top of my head, I am fairly certain Tigers did participate in the Kasserine battles, but not at El Guettar.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by mpkev31b on Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:47 PM
 the doog wrote:

 mpkev31b wrote:
no doog, those are from a Sherman 76 , 76MM rounds.  and strikes from an m10  10 hits in total. jagdtiger "331 " commanded by  Lt Kasper Geoggler, third Kampfgruppe from 3/653 abandoned by its crew in neustadt germany in 1945, after detroying 28 US tanks between his panzer and 2 others. it was sent back to aberdeen proveing grounds maryland were it sits today.
I've been to Aberdeen as well, in he late 80's, and did see the beast as well; in fact, my fascination with this vehicle is partly the reason I love armor models so much! Still, I don't believe that M10's were used in Tunisia--and certainly not enough to lambast this Tiger in uch a manner before the driver would have high-tailed it out of its position and preclude the possibility of 4 or more direct hits.

And still, it was a sloped armor hit on the Jagdtiger--which gouged the armor unnaturally compared to a straight-on hit--ergo, the size distortion.

We've had some really great hypothetical opinions and scenarios expounded here, with a lot of great debate, but in my books, the Tiger' just doesn't pass the "Smell Test". Like someone once said: "I can't define 'pornongraphy' but I know it when I see it".

 i agree , but my points are that some german armor could take a beating, i dont think as much as model maniacs tiger of course. although i did read somewhere cant remember right now of a first person acount of a tiger commander and his crew takeing over 100 hits from mutiple t34's in russia and subsequently knocking out all the t34's and abandoning the tiger due to no ammo and being tracked. 

 

as for APG, the museum in an awsome place, most german armor in one place then ive seen anywhere else. Doog, did you by any chance see the German Elefant SPG on the other side of the Gustov railroad gun sitting in the open field ? a rare gem that for some reason the museum hasent seen fit to properly take care of and its rotting in that open field.  and i for one love the two Panthers they have.

 

heres a walk around video of it. the Elefant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG701f6EhOI 

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