Best USAAF Olive Drab?

Maybe divorced companies. I checked out the AK forum a few times - when I click the bookmark on my browser it takes me to Ammo. I've got two of the AK sets - they work well, and I'd venture they're buying their paint from Vallejo (Jimenez, Wilder and company were all associated with Vallejo years back). I've got a lot of Vallejo Model Color and Model Air and the characteristics of the AK paints are very like Model Air. A few of the sets include primer and maybe a gloss or satin coat - that stuff I already have by the bucket. And once you get the hang of it, it's pretty easy to get the same results with a little color mixing. But one of those sets would work for several kits I'd guess (always surprises me how little paint I use on a model) so it's no big expenditure for the convenience.

Eric

You're right about tamiya OD, it always looked too dark to me. I also have the model air OD, it looks good as well. Once I found these modulation sets by ak and ammo (they're actually two different companies) I became a fan. Each set comes with 5 different hues of one colour used for shadows or highlights. It opens up lots options.

That looks pretty good to me. I can't swear to it, but I know that Mig Jimenez used to have very close association with Vallejo Paints and he maybe selling some under his own brand. (AK is now AMMO.) I have a paint conversion software program that gives the best match among model paints to the Federal Standard #(s) given to wartime OD to Vallejo Model Air. I've got both Model Air and Model Color OD and agree that they're closer to USAAF OD than Tamiya. Anyway, I'd say yours looks pretty good to me: more on the brownish as opposed to olive side of the spectrum which is right. It's not that vital anyway, especially for AFVs which should be getting some degree of weathering.

Eric

Hey guys, just here to throw in my 2 cents, I'm currently masking up a p-51. I used the ak interactive od modulation set . I find it has a good looking shade of od, Iuse it for all my armour and aircraft.

It was Archer that claimed few late OD USAAF planes made it to ETO - although he did note several bombers were in the category and had a photo of a B-17 to show the difference in the hue. Archer's book is very strong on paper trail (unlike the Jentz claim that every German tank in France 1940 was gray/brown and dam the photo record) but he didn't get into production and delivery figures. I'm sure in the real world things were never as tidy as the paper trail suggested. And, as noted by Archer, in the real world the OD coming from various factories during expansion wasn't completely standardized for some time - perhaps never. And what counted as "many" planes in USAAF WWII standards? Earlier in this old thread Hans said that every squadron had planes with different colors and I've seen some very good color photos and films (the real deal, not colorized) that show it. I've also seen photos of USAAF planes of late 43-early 44 vintage that have a mix of OD and NMF - nice for modelers. The plane I built was a 1/35 Arii. An old kit, but nicely shaped. I dressed it in 5th AF garb more or less - it was an early effort and the decals weren't the greatest. Did a lot of salt fading, but you can tell the color used pretty well:

One of these days I'll build a USN airplane and throw another Archer argument out there - he believes that most early model colors used for USN planes are off kilter too. But that's for another day.

Sounds like you probably mixed something pretty good.

Let's not get into adjustment of colors for scale, no matter what Mr. Zaloga says.  It's a complicated subject, and besides, I don't think you mentioned the scale of your model.  The more obvious reasons for color adjustment relate to display lighting and weathering.

You have largely answered your own question if you have identified three different families of Olive Drab (41, 313 and 613).  However, you should be skeptical when someones says that only a small number of planes were olives other than the Dark Olive Drab 41 family.  Quite a few P-38s, P-47Ds, B-25Gs and Hs, A-20Gs, B-24s, etc. built in 1943 and 1944 had olive paint that pretty clearly was not Dark Olive Drab 41.  Orders are not always carried out as written, or as promptly as we might imagine.

I used the Archer color plates as a template and mixed my own from primes. Darker and more brownish than Tamiya's. It does look as though Tamiya OD is a decent match for the color used for US AFVs and the handful of 1943 OD planes called for that were deployed before the NMF directive a couple of months later. US paints were pretty good, but any matte paint is going to be vulnerable to fade so I think Steve Zaloga is right to advise scale adjustment. I've seen photos of SW Pacific planes that are extremely washed out. 5th AF didn't throw anything away.

Mr. Bergerud, the short answer to your question is "the model paint which best represents the shade used by the particular factory that made the P-47 you are trying to depict, adjusted for the display lighting you expect to have on your model, and further adjusted for any weathering you have decided upon."  There is no single model paint that does all that.  With diligent search on the Internet, you should be able to find some color photos of P-47s in O.D.

I've my parents "Flight to Everywhere" by Ivan Dimitri copyright 1944 with many color photos of ATC bases.  They indicate the greenish-brownish tint was the predominate color.  It could be the processing the color on the pages. But it seems to match OD-#41 per my Archer & Archer closest.

Yes, many of their French built aircraft were camo'ed in the tan and blue scheme in the 6 Day War. The biggest exception being their Mirage III fleet. But shortly after that war, the new three color scheme was adopted and the Mirages were among the first to be painted in those new colors. And yes you are correct on the movment of the IDF Paras. They were supposed to jump in the Sinai but airlanded instead due to the rapid armor advance. then they were moved by bus, IIRC, up to the Jeruselum front after completing their missions in Sinai.

stikpusher

Israel camoed their NMF planes shortly after the 6 Day War in 1967 and the new three color (Sand/Brown/Light Green) camo was standard when the "War of Attrition" broke out a few months later.

It's a pretty attractive scheme. When the paras moved north from Sinai to the push into Jerusalem on Day 3, I believe they went by road. I drove from Jerusalem to the Sinai border in about 3 hours, would have been faster except we were followed by a drone for about 30 minutes.

speaking of zero's here are 2 of the real deal at this years airshow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blEamFD80Ls

Two Points:

1. I have a color chip for OD 319 which Zaloga claims was used by US ground forces. It is a little lighter a bit closer toward the olive end of the spectrum. Zaloga is a Tamiya fan and I'd agree for this color: to my eyes Tamiya XF-62 Olive Drab does match OD 319 (or 9 in ground forces) pretty well. It is has too much olive, for my eyes, for OD 41. (Zaloga is a great fan of "scale" and uses yellow to lighten his OD for shading. He's also a great modeler: I'd be careful. Almost wonder how buff or deck tan would work.)

2. Great Razorback photo: reminds one how big those things were. I interviewed an Aussie Beaufighter pilot and he told me that the first time he saw a P-47 land at Townsville (where father did a stint) in northern Oz. He watched the pilot get out and then sat there waiting for rest of the crew. The thing was the size of his Beaufighter so he only assumed there more guys. About fifteen years ago Planes of Fame had an outpost in Minnesota. I went to one of their "fly ins" and there were maybe 20 planes. Anyway, in one building there was a 47D flanked by a P-39 on one side and a 51D on the other. The 39 was our midget and it looked like a toy. The 51 is of modest size too - at least when compared to a Jug. In the other building they had one of the very few flying Wildcats next to a Hellcat. Depending upon the dimension the Hellcat was very close to the Jug in size and it made the F4F look miniature. The photos make the cats look like relatives: when you see them live, it's very clear the Hellcat is a completely different buggy. If a 109 would have been there, I'm not sure anyone could have seen it unless they made sure it wasn't hidden by something like a motor cycle or a bookshelf. Those LW pilots must have been midgets.  

Great to see the warbird guys still in action. I talked to Randy Wilson of the then Confederate AF (now Commerative AF) who at least then owned a Wildcat. He said we'd see the day when at least some marks were either retired or maybe only flown once a year. (Chino's lone Zero is still doing a flight every December the last I checked. Suppose its only a matter of time before a Japanese billionaire buys it.) I'm sure that's true for planes that are nearly extinct. But if there's one thing good about young tech zillionaires, you have a whole new generation of gents able to plunk down $20,000 for a pair of Wildcat tires or $150,000 for a 51 engine rebuild. Been told that some marks have actually gone up in numbers considerably. Wonder how long they can fly? I lectured at the Naval Postgraduate School a while back and a student was a B-52 pilot. His plane was older than he was. His son was in AF training and hoped to fly B-52s too. Wonder if you could rule out a 100 year old weapon? I know the Enterprise is scheduled for decommissioning pretty soon, but wouldn't she be put in reserve for a while? They kept the Iowas there for forty years. Guess the 52 is planned to be around until 2045. Maybe we'll be broke and they'll keep it flying for another ten years so we can keep the Dominican Republic in line. Like the good old days: if a navy took good care of it, a ship of the line could last 70 years or so.

Eric

ps1scw

It is also my understanding that the USAAF had a different shade of OD from the rest of US Army equipment.

Yes indeed they did. The USAAF shade was OD 41, and the Army Ground Forces shade was  No.9 according to Mr Zaloga and Mr Bells writings. Color No. 9 was used on all Army equipment: tanks, artillery, helmets, etc. The AAF shade was darker.  OD No. 9 was supposed to be the basis of ANA 319 when the colors were standardized mid war.

Bondo, your right about the C-46 being quite a trooper in its capabilities, but it got a bad rap in the Airborne due to Varsity. At that time, being new in theater it had not been fitted with self sealing fuel tanks or a vented wing. It suffered a higher loss rate on that drop accordingly. Gen Ridgeway, Commander of XVIII Airborne Corps (and the senior US Airborne commander) essentially banned the C-46 for any furhter parachute assault use in the ETO after Varsity. (A drop on Berlin's Tempelhoff was planned for the 82nd if Ike had chosen to beat the Russians to Berlin but never executed) But it could carry more troopers and get them out quicker due to jump doors being on both sides of the fuselage. It would give sterling service alongside C-119s dropping the 187th Airborne RCT and original Airborne Ranger Companies in Korea. And yes, one must admire and salute the bravery of the Legion Paras at Dien Bien Phu. Only the initial jumpers went in with a chance of success. The reinforcements who dropped in after the siege began did so at crazy low level knowing their chance of victory or even survival was poor to nil.

It is also my understanding that the USAAF had a different shade of OD from the rest of US Army equipment.

Here is a newly restored razorback....consensus is that it is WONDERFUL

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41400&start=60

I recommend WIX for all aircraft modelers.  Great resto's and wonderful shots of preserved history.

Fascinating thread...

Pointless research is one of the benefits of a hobby. As luck would have it, I did all of my writing on the PTO so I don't have anything on the B-26. (There was a squadron out there very early - painted silver.)

Actually, the USAF did not go to Vietnam in NMF. At least on the Century Series. In the early 60s, those TAC aircraft previously in NMF were painted in Aluminum Lacquer for corrosion control purposes. But the SEA Camo started appearing in late 1965 and was pretty much standard across those USAF aircraft tasked with dropping bombs or shooting missiles/guns in theater by late 1966. Israel camoed their NMF planes shortly after the 6 Day War in 1967 and the new three color (Sand/Brown/Light Green) camo was standard when the "War of Attrition" broke out a few months later.

Pointless research is one of the benefits of a hobby. As luck would have it, I did all of my writing on the PTO so I don't have anything on the B-26. (There was a squadron out there very early - painted silver.) But it's nice to see that local commanders were allowed to give modelers some neat things to look at. NMF was covered partially with lord knows what. (I found a B-25 in Italy painted 2/3ds Olive Green over NMF - one sweet looking bird - almost Japanese. I bought some vaunted Hawkeye acrylic: thinking of using it on a George or Oscar.) As noted above, I found a late 44 Wolfpack razorback that is very dark and no what theater markings on the cowl. (Maybe from those ugly days during Market Garden which proved, if proof was needed, that ground attack was a good way to end up dead even for very good pilots.) From the sounds of it, several Wolf Pack buble tops had RAF inspired schemes. I even saw one with a "Malcom Hood." A Brit camo bubbletop would be very cool. And the Osprey book has a picture of a horde of 51Ds getting their primer in the factor in prep for presumably something silver. And a late war Navy B-25 (forget what they called it) on a CV deck painted in tri-color navy camo in late 44. And some P51-B variation (looks like it was maybe a two seater: guess that was sometimes done in the field) that is solid red, just when I said there were no red fighters. Serves me right. I don't have a P-51 in my stash - figure. I do, however, have a RAF P-51 MKII: those have some fine schemes.  Actually, if one did up the detail right, doing late war US fighters could be a real exercise in advanced model painting. Imagine doing one of those checkerboards. (Still can't find confirmation of Archer's claim that  invasion stripes were often field applied RAF Very Dark Sea Grey - that that would look neat too.)

Thanks much for all of the info. It's lead to some great ideas for future projects beyond the field of Olive Drab.

Eric

Funny thing, but NMF has not been the way to go now for a very long time. Obviously in this age of composites, it's not an issue.

By Vietnam the USAF had camo back in place after what 1967?

Israel had their earlier birds in NMF in 1967 but the standard was blue on brown.

Jordan had an order of F-104s that were diverted to Turkey in summer 1967 by order of the US State Department until Fall, and they were NMF.

Taken in Amman 2010

The RAF did switch to a silver finish on Spits and Tempests, but that was post War.

Stikpusher:

Right, I'll read up on the ATC a little more tomorrow vis it's deliveries..

Because it was a pressurized cabin, the aircraft could exceed the physical limitations of it's crew.

Losses to opposition fighters in CBI were minimal; operational stress was the obstacle.

It had twice the load capacity of a C-47 and could safely fly at 25,000 feet for a total range of 3,000 miles.

Always overloaded in CBI. The weather was unpredictable over the Himalayas without weather ships operating in the flight path.

I really like the C-54 but the double bubble Curtiss has to take the honors of best trooper.

BTW they were a big part of the Foreign Legion's drop into Dien Bien Phu, along with the C-119. They were true heroes in my opinion, because they knew they would be captured or killed.

stikpusher

 

DoogsATX:

 

 

EBergerud:

Doog: interesting stuff on Wolf Pack. I've got a 47 documentary in color (different than the famous "Thunderbolt" which I also have) and it shows one squadron that was like the Flying Circus - about every color you could think of (as long as it was OD, grey, natural, or some embellishment: nothing solid red.) What I was looking for, and still can't figure out, is whether "natural finish" would have been bright or more satin. I'd guess satin, but a few Jugs looked pretty shinny.

Eric

 

 

Well, like all NMF aircraft, Jugs were skinned in Alclad (an Alcoa-developed surface coating that provided corrosion resistance to underlying alloys...duraluminum in the P-47's case). I imagine shine had a lot to do with the overall condition of the aircraft. A dirty aircraft under very harsh environmental conditions is going to be a lot flatter than one that's babied on a posh RAF airfield and waxed to coax out that extra 10mph top speed. I imagine you'd probably even seen variations on the same aircraft depending on what it had been up to. 

 

 

Here is another area one has to do a bit of research in. Aircraft with laminar flow wings, specifically the P-51, used paint to seal the panel lines and rivets to achieve smoother airflow over the wing surfaces. With the switch to NMF in 1944, the wings were finished in aluminum lacquer,and were not Alclad, or bare metal of any sort.

Very true, but I believe the P-51 was unique as the only aircraft with a laminar wing to go bare metal and thus need the aluminum lacquer to seal the filled seamwork. The only other aircraft that spring to mind are the Hawker Tempest and some fiddling with the late-mark Spitfires, neither of which is exactly known for going without their ocean gray/dark green camo.

For P-51 wings, on my recent go-round I used Alclad semi-matte for the wings, with airframe aluminum/aluminum/duraluminum/magnesium on the fuselage. I think next time I may take Tamiya AS-12 for a spin with the wings to provide some better visual distance.

Interesting on the C-46s in CBI being NMF. Those were not introduced to ETO IX Troop Carrier Command, until  Spring 1945, long after the factory switch and those ones were in OD over NG. Photos of the Varsity Rhine Drop have ample evidence of this. I think loss rates of C-46s in CBI were higher just due to the overall nature of the mission there. Not strictly Japanese fighters. The Hump airlift was very costly in men and machines just from conditions alone. Throw in the occasional roving Oscar or Tojo and it gets higher. Regarding the B-25s there, the later models such as the H and J were introduced into service there in OD/NG after the NMF switch. I would presume it being to hose falling under different commands. The B-25s falling under tactical commanders of 10th or 14th AF and the C-46s belonging to Air Transport Command. Different command staffs, different mindsets. According to Mr Bells Air Force Colors books, the final decision to camo or not was up to the local command.

Good thought Stik. but the C-46s in CBI definitely were NM after about late 43. I'm thinking that the medium bombers were not shot down so much in that theater and were older versions. New transport stuff in CATS were all metal.

In the PTO and CBI, OD was applied to new medium and light bombers such as B-25s and A-20s all the way thru to the end of the war.

[quote user="EBergerud"]

Another research project. That's very interesting data but I'm going to have to check Archer and others for confirmation. I can't remember seeing pictures of late war USAAF aircraft in proper camo after spring 44. They'd have glare panels and enough painted on for ID, but natural finish is still quite prominent and if the sun was out it would not take much natural finish to act like a flying mirror. An old prof of mine in undergrad days many years ago had done a stint with the LW in early 1945. (There were a lot of German emigres on campus back then, and not all from pre-1939.) He said it infuriated German pilots (especially rookies like him) that the Americans took no pain to hide themselves, but rather hung out a sign saying "fight us." The LW did, and as my prof put it, (he had less than 90 hours total in an aircraft and was flying what I'm sure was a Dora) "the Americans treated us like the children we were." An American fighter pilot told me exactly the same thing: shinny aircraft were an invitation to the dance. No doubt natural finish was an industrial decision and the pilots put a different spin on it. The military works that way. There was also a theoretical improvement in performance, but you could get almost the same result by simply waxing the plane the way the RAF did. In any case, if you know of any photos of US combat planes sporting full paint after mid-44 I'd like to see them. (Everything happened in war of course. I have a Tamiya P-47M which went to the ETO in early 45 to the "Wolf Pack" and the cover art gives it  a kind of very dark grey paint: almost British like Archer mentioned.)

DoogsATX

EBergerud:

Doog: interesting stuff on Wolf Pack. I've got a 47 documentary in color (different than the famous "Thunderbolt" which I also have) and it shows one squadron that was like the Flying Circus - about every color you could think of (as long as it was OD, grey, natural, or some embellishment: nothing solid red.) What I was looking for, and still can't figure out, is whether "natural finish" would have been bright or more satin. I'd guess satin, but a few Jugs looked pretty shinny.

Eric

 

Well, like all NMF aircraft, Jugs were skinned in Alclad (an Alcoa-developed surface coating that provided corrosion resistance to underlying alloys...duraluminum in the P-47's case). I imagine shine had a lot to do with the overall condition of the aircraft. A dirty aircraft under very harsh environmental conditions is going to be a lot flatter than one that's babied on a posh RAF airfield and waxed to coax out that extra 10mph top speed. I imagine you'd probably even seen variations on the same aircraft depending on what it had been up to. 

Here is another area one has to do a bit of research in. Aircraft with laminar flow wings, specifically the P-51, used paint to seal the panel lines and rivets to achieve smoother airflow over the wing surfaces. With the switch to NMF in 1944, the wings were finished in aluminum lacquer,and were not Alclad, or bare metal of any sort.

Anyways here are few different ODs I have used on 1/48 builds...

Pactra Dark Olive Drab... long OOP but a good very dark OD with a brownish hue

Gunze Aqueous H52 USAAF OD, much lighter, but gives a good brownish hue in a lighter shade as well

Testors MM Green Drab 34086 base oversprayed with MM Faded OD

Testors Acryl MM OD 319

Tamiya OD