Best USAAF Olive Drab?

Fascinating thread...

Here is a newly restored razorback....consensus is that it is WONDERFUL

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41400&start=60

I recommend WIX for all aircraft modelers.  Great resto's and wonderful shots of preserved history.

It is also my understanding that the USAAF had a different shade of OD from the rest of US Army equipment.

ps1scw

It is also my understanding that the USAAF had a different shade of OD from the rest of US Army equipment.

Yes indeed they did. The USAAF shade was OD 41, and the Army Ground Forces shade was  No.9 according to Mr Zaloga and Mr Bells writings. Color No. 9 was used on all Army equipment: tanks, artillery, helmets, etc. The AAF shade was darker.  OD No. 9 was supposed to be the basis of ANA 319 when the colors were standardized mid war.

Bondo, your right about the C-46 being quite a trooper in its capabilities, but it got a bad rap in the Airborne due to Varsity. At that time, being new in theater it had not been fitted with self sealing fuel tanks or a vented wing. It suffered a higher loss rate on that drop accordingly. Gen Ridgeway, Commander of XVIII Airborne Corps (and the senior US Airborne commander) essentially banned the C-46 for any furhter parachute assault use in the ETO after Varsity. (A drop on Berlin's Tempelhoff was planned for the 82nd if Ike had chosen to beat the Russians to Berlin but never executed) But it could carry more troopers and get them out quicker due to jump doors being on both sides of the fuselage. It would give sterling service alongside C-119s dropping the 187th Airborne RCT and original Airborne Ranger Companies in Korea. And yes, one must admire and salute the bravery of the Legion Paras at Dien Bien Phu. Only the initial jumpers went in with a chance of success. The reinforcements who dropped in after the siege began did so at crazy low level knowing their chance of victory or even survival was poor to nil.

Two Points:

1. I have a color chip for OD 319 which Zaloga claims was used by US ground forces. It is a little lighter a bit closer toward the olive end of the spectrum. Zaloga is a Tamiya fan and I'd agree for this color: to my eyes Tamiya XF-62 Olive Drab does match OD 319 (or 9 in ground forces) pretty well. It is has too much olive, for my eyes, for OD 41. (Zaloga is a great fan of "scale" and uses yellow to lighten his OD for shading. He's also a great modeler: I'd be careful. Almost wonder how buff or deck tan would work.)

2. Great Razorback photo: reminds one how big those things were. I interviewed an Aussie Beaufighter pilot and he told me that the first time he saw a P-47 land at Townsville (where father did a stint) in northern Oz. He watched the pilot get out and then sat there waiting for rest of the crew. The thing was the size of his Beaufighter so he only assumed there more guys. About fifteen years ago Planes of Fame had an outpost in Minnesota. I went to one of their "fly ins" and there were maybe 20 planes. Anyway, in one building there was a 47D flanked by a P-39 on one side and a 51D on the other. The 39 was our midget and it looked like a toy. The 51 is of modest size too - at least when compared to a Jug. In the other building they had one of the very few flying Wildcats next to a Hellcat. Depending upon the dimension the Hellcat was very close to the Jug in size and it made the F4F look miniature. The photos make the cats look like relatives: when you see them live, it's very clear the Hellcat is a completely different buggy. If a 109 would have been there, I'm not sure anyone could have seen it unless they made sure it wasn't hidden by something like a motor cycle or a bookshelf. Those LW pilots must have been midgets.  

Great to see the warbird guys still in action. I talked to Randy Wilson of the then Confederate AF (now Commerative AF) who at least then owned a Wildcat. He said we'd see the day when at least some marks were either retired or maybe only flown once a year. (Chino's lone Zero is still doing a flight every December the last I checked. Suppose its only a matter of time before a Japanese billionaire buys it.) I'm sure that's true for planes that are nearly extinct. But if there's one thing good about young tech zillionaires, you have a whole new generation of gents able to plunk down $20,000 for a pair of Wildcat tires or $150,000 for a 51 engine rebuild. Been told that some marks have actually gone up in numbers considerably. Wonder how long they can fly? I lectured at the Naval Postgraduate School a while back and a student was a B-52 pilot. His plane was older than he was. His son was in AF training and hoped to fly B-52s too. Wonder if you could rule out a 100 year old weapon? I know the Enterprise is scheduled for decommissioning pretty soon, but wouldn't she be put in reserve for a while? They kept the Iowas there for forty years. Guess the 52 is planned to be around until 2045. Maybe we'll be broke and they'll keep it flying for another ten years so we can keep the Dominican Republic in line. Like the good old days: if a navy took good care of it, a ship of the line could last 70 years or so.

Eric

speaking of zero's here are 2 of the real deal at this years airshow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blEamFD80Ls

stikpusher

Israel camoed their NMF planes shortly after the 6 Day War in 1967 and the new three color (Sand/Brown/Light Green) camo was standard when the "War of Attrition" broke out a few months later.

It's a pretty attractive scheme. When the paras moved north from Sinai to the push into Jerusalem on Day 3, I believe they went by road. I drove from Jerusalem to the Sinai border in about 3 hours, would have been faster except we were followed by a drone for about 30 minutes.

Yes, many of their French built aircraft were camo'ed in the tan and blue scheme in the 6 Day War. The biggest exception being their Mirage III fleet. But shortly after that war, the new three color scheme was adopted and the Mirages were among the first to be painted in those new colors. And yes you are correct on the movment of the IDF Paras. They were supposed to jump in the Sinai but airlanded instead due to the rapid armor advance. then they were moved by bus, IIRC, up to the Jeruselum front after completing their missions in Sinai.

I've my parents "Flight to Everywhere" by Ivan Dimitri copyright 1944 with many color photos of ATC bases.  They indicate the greenish-brownish tint was the predominate color.  It could be the processing the color on the pages. But it seems to match OD-#41 per my Archer & Archer closest.

Mr. Bergerud, the short answer to your question is "the model paint which best represents the shade used by the particular factory that made the P-47 you are trying to depict, adjusted for the display lighting you expect to have on your model, and further adjusted for any weathering you have decided upon."  There is no single model paint that does all that.  With diligent search on the Internet, you should be able to find some color photos of P-47s in O.D.

I used the Archer color plates as a template and mixed my own from primes. Darker and more brownish than Tamiya's. It does look as though Tamiya OD is a decent match for the color used for US AFVs and the handful of 1943 OD planes called for that were deployed before the NMF directive a couple of months later. US paints were pretty good, but any matte paint is going to be vulnerable to fade so I think Steve Zaloga is right to advise scale adjustment. I've seen photos of SW Pacific planes that are extremely washed out. 5th AF didn't throw anything away.

Sounds like you probably mixed something pretty good.

Let's not get into adjustment of colors for scale, no matter what Mr. Zaloga says.  It's a complicated subject, and besides, I don't think you mentioned the scale of your model.  The more obvious reasons for color adjustment relate to display lighting and weathering.

You have largely answered your own question if you have identified three different families of Olive Drab (41, 313 and 613).  However, you should be skeptical when someones says that only a small number of planes were olives other than the Dark Olive Drab 41 family.  Quite a few P-38s, P-47Ds, B-25Gs and Hs, A-20Gs, B-24s, etc. built in 1943 and 1944 had olive paint that pretty clearly was not Dark Olive Drab 41.  Orders are not always carried out as written, or as promptly as we might imagine.

It was Archer that claimed few late OD USAAF planes made it to ETO - although he did note several bombers were in the category and had a photo of a B-17 to show the difference in the hue. Archer's book is very strong on paper trail (unlike the Jentz claim that every German tank in France 1940 was gray/brown and dam the photo record) but he didn't get into production and delivery figures. I'm sure in the real world things were never as tidy as the paper trail suggested. And, as noted by Archer, in the real world the OD coming from various factories during expansion wasn't completely standardized for some time - perhaps never. And what counted as "many" planes in USAAF WWII standards? Earlier in this old thread Hans said that every squadron had planes with different colors and I've seen some very good color photos and films (the real deal, not colorized) that show it. I've also seen photos of USAAF planes of late 43-early 44 vintage that have a mix of OD and NMF - nice for modelers. The plane I built was a 1/35 Arii. An old kit, but nicely shaped. I dressed it in 5th AF garb more or less - it was an early effort and the decals weren't the greatest. Did a lot of salt fading, but you can tell the color used pretty well:

One of these days I'll build a USN airplane and throw another Archer argument out there - he believes that most early model colors used for USN planes are off kilter too. But that's for another day.

Hey guys, just here to throw in my 2 cents, I'm currently masking up a p-51. I used the ak interactive od modulation set . I find it has a good looking shade of od, Iuse it for all my armour and aircraft.

That looks pretty good to me. I can't swear to it, but I know that Mig Jimenez used to have very close association with Vallejo Paints and he maybe selling some under his own brand. (AK is now AMMO.) I have a paint conversion software program that gives the best match among model paints to the Federal Standard #(s) given to wartime OD to Vallejo Model Air. I've got both Model Air and Model Color OD and agree that they're closer to USAAF OD than Tamiya. Anyway, I'd say yours looks pretty good to me: more on the brownish as opposed to olive side of the spectrum which is right. It's not that vital anyway, especially for AFVs which should be getting some degree of weathering.

Eric

You're right about tamiya OD, it always looked too dark to me. I also have the model air OD, it looks good as well. Once I found these modulation sets by ak and ammo (they're actually two different companies) I became a fan. Each set comes with 5 different hues of one colour used for shadows or highlights. It opens up lots options.

Maybe divorced companies. I checked out the AK forum a few times - when I click the bookmark on my browser it takes me to Ammo. I've got two of the AK sets - they work well, and I'd venture they're buying their paint from Vallejo (Jimenez, Wilder and company were all associated with Vallejo years back). I've got a lot of Vallejo Model Color and Model Air and the characteristics of the AK paints are very like Model Air. A few of the sets include primer and maybe a gloss or satin coat - that stuff I already have by the bucket. And once you get the hang of it, it's pretty easy to get the same results with a little color mixing. But one of those sets would work for several kits I'd guess (always surprises me how little paint I use on a model) so it's no big expenditure for the convenience.

Eric