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Base color for Zeroes: Dove-grey or brownish grey-green?

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  • Member since
    December 2017
Posted by Bat505 on Saturday, September 16, 2023 12:12 AM

Brumbles

I've been out of aircraft modelling for a long time and am re-entering with an attempt on Hasegawa's recent 1/48 A6M2b. 

Has the above-mentioned brownish grey-green Ameiro color been accepted as the "correct" base color, these days?  I so much prefer the previously accepted dove-grey tone, but want to get it right (and please myself too, of course!).

What do you think?

 

I have found one of the true colors of the attacking zeros of the pearl harbor attack..and that color is from " SCALE COLORS " CALLED  IJN  ( AME-IRO 1940 - 42 GREY GREEN..FOR $4.99 .. the color looks like a tannish gray green it is truly a great color.. when you see it you will truly agree the word AME-IRO Translated means the color of candy caramel

  • Member since
    June 2014
Posted by BrandonK on Friday, January 2, 2015 2:31 PM

Gosh, such a difficult thing to figure out. I really just don't know what to do for the color. I am not looking to be dead on accurate, just kinda in the ball park. I guess one can only do his research on his particular aircraft as best he can and paint it up in a manner that pleases his/her eye. I'm gonna have to do some heavy thinking on this one before I shoot the color. I really did enjoy this thread. I'm not sure if the page I posted above is the one Spruesome was referring to or not. Ah nuts, I thought I might have this all figured out. Guess not.

On the bench:

A lot !! And I mean A LOT!!

2024 Kits on deck / in process / completed   

                         14 / 5 / 2  

                              Tongue Tied

  • Member since
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Posted by BrandonK on Thursday, January 1, 2015 1:03 PM

Here is a site with photos taken from survive planes in Auckland. These are full color and the page gives a great deal of needed info on the true color of these planes. I think Lawdog is very close to being correct with his color based on what I see on this page.

http://modelingmadness.com/earlya6mcolors.htm

On the bench:

A lot !! And I mean A LOT!!

2024 Kits on deck / in process / completed   

                         14 / 5 / 2  

                              Tongue Tied

  • Member since
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  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Wednesday, December 31, 2014 2:29 PM
  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:34 AM

All I know is that they are in Scotland. I had never heard of them before this.

There is/was a Sovereign book series, I have their Phantom book,,,,but, they were based in Australia, so, I don't think there is any connection.

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, December 30, 2014 11:56 PM

I have never heard of sovereign, what is the scuttlebutt on that company?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Tuesday, December 30, 2014 11:38 PM

ColourCoats was picked up by Soveriegn before Dec 25th, when Tom's announced picking up the resin and etch lines.

z15.invisionfree.com/.../index.php

so, you'll be able to get some of the 25,000 remaining tins in the short term, and the line will be back some time after that

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    July 2011
  • From: Armpit of NY
Posted by MJames70 on Tuesday, December 30, 2014 11:26 PM

One thing I would add is not to get attached to the idea of using the White Ensign paints. I suspect that many here on the Aircraft board will not have heard the news that White Ensign is no more, as they were primarily a producer of ship stuff. While some things have been picked up (supposedly much of the PE is going to Tom's Modelworks) by other providers, it is quite likely that the ColourCoats paint line is dead.

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: NW Washington
Posted by dirkpitt77 on Tuesday, December 30, 2014 3:44 PM

I just wanted to chime and say I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. Some great info here and will definitely come in handy if I ever get to my Zero kit that's been sitting on the shelf from six years ago. (Ha!)  Thanks to all of you for adding to the discussion.

Chris

    "Some say the alien didn't die in the crash.  It survived and drank whiskey and played poker with the locals 'til the Texas Rangers caught wind of it and shot it dead."

  • Member since
    March 2009
Posted by coogrfan on Monday, December 29, 2014 11:04 PM

Thank for the response, Spruesome. For the record the White Ensign Paints I posted previously are labeled as follows:

1st photo: "Mitsubishi Zero Grey-Green" ACJ16.

2nd photo: "Nakajima Amber Grey (Ame-iro)" ACJ17

More details concerning this line can be found here:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/gregspringer/wem-review/wem-review.htm

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, December 29, 2014 9:04 PM

That should be a nice one to see... I am kinda interested in the Aleutian Rufes myself...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: North Pole, Alaska
Posted by richs26 on Monday, December 29, 2014 8:31 PM

I am just doing research for my 1/72 Airfix A6M2 of Koga's Zero sitting on the dock at Dutch Harbor after being recovered by Lt. Thies and crew.

WIP:  Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 73rd BS B-26, 40-1408, torpedo bomber attempt on Ryujo

Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 22nd BG B-26, 7-Mile Drome, New Guinea

Minicraft 1/72 B-24D as LB-30, AL-613, "Tough Boy", 28th Composite Group

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, December 29, 2014 7:47 PM

I forgot that they had captured one in China before Koga's... The lights reflection is very pronounced there. To me that would indicate a shiny or well polished surface. Each lamps reflection is very sharp and pronounced... Interesting...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: North Pole, Alaska
Posted by richs26 on Monday, December 29, 2014 7:07 PM

Joe, here is some photos of the first captured Zero (8 months before PO Koga's Zero was discovered, July 9-10, 1942).  Notice the shininess of the finish under the hangar lights.

http://j-aircraft.com/research/WarPrizes.htm

 

WIP:  Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 73rd BS B-26, 40-1408, torpedo bomber attempt on Ryujo

Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 22nd BG B-26, 7-Mile Drome, New Guinea

Minicraft 1/72 B-24D as LB-30, AL-613, "Tough Boy", 28th Composite Group

  • Member since
    February 2012
  • From: Olmsted Township, Ohio
Posted by lawdog114 on Monday, December 29, 2014 6:41 PM

Spruesome

I read that XF-76 is matt, which would be another reason it does not match.  The paint on the pre-July 1943 Model 21 is said to be somewhat glossy, and indeed the very same naval officer said it was somewhat glossy as of February 1942 (in a report, the title of which is abbreviated to "KuuGiHou 0266").

Yes, all of Tamiya's "XF" line is flat.  Their "X" line is gloss.  You have to add a gloss coat for decaling anyways so this really isn't an issue, at least for me.  Interesting to know these early zeros were somewhat glossy for my PH build. 

Joe

 "Can you fly this plane and land it?...Surely you can't be serious....I am serious, and don't call me Shirley"

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2012
  • From: Olmsted Township, Ohio
Posted by lawdog114 on Monday, December 29, 2014 6:29 PM

jgeratic

Nothing against Joe, he does beautiful work with his aircraft builds, but I don't think the Tamiya paint can be properly assessed as the piece he is showing has already been weathered, plus all the other peripherals like lighting, different monitors etc. 

I find XF-76  straight from the bottle is decidedly more green than anything,  For kicks, I pulled a trio of Tamiya images and pasted them on the Zero Joe had linked earlier.  It was already said not to judge paint by the cap colour, but why is Joe's more 'caramel' in tone? 

Great discussion.  I know, I forgot to snap a picture of this guy before I weathered it.  Sorry folks.  That said, the only thing that had been added to it was Flat white for the streaking. Jack, my XF-76 bottle looks nothing like the example you have transposed here.    Perhaps its my lighting but I get no green out of this color at all (as seen by the photo). 

I've heard about the "Old Concrete" option.  I've also read that a lightened RLM 02 is acceptable for an early zero.  I personally won't get involved in the Miitsubishi/Nakajima built, lighting, time of day and age differences of a color.  I would loose interest in the hobby if I did.  I rarely paint straight out of the bottle anyways and I tend to weather rather heavily.  When all is said and done, it looks like a zero and I'm happy with that.  If anything, we've learned to stop painting them white or light grey yeah?

An XF-76 painted Pearl Harbor zero is next so I'll take pictures of the paint "raw"....

Joe 

 

 "Can you fly this plane and land it?...Surely you can't be serious....I am serious, and don't call me Shirley"

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Monday, December 29, 2014 4:55 PM

from the post at 8:26 AM above

"The problem with Nick's chips or anyone else's, and the pseudo-science revolving around relics, the color measurements, the use of Japanese color words, and all of the other pencil sharpening to find The One True Color, is that there is not just one true color."

and on that subject of "being grateful not to have words put into one's mouth",,,,,I think I would like that exact same thing (it seems fair, but I am probably wrong about that, somehow)

I did spell out exactly what my favorite way to convey matches was in a post up above

" and even show a photo of the standard with the hobby color up against it. I figure that modelers are then intelligent enough to decide with the evidence right before their eyes."

here is my method http://z15.invisionfree.com/Hangar_Deck_Resource/index.php?showtopic=12  (sorry this is not a real link,,,,,about 1/2 the time the "insert link" button is grayed out on here, there, got it on this edit)

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by Spruesome on Monday, December 29, 2014 4:38 PM

Tarnship, I don't think I said that Mr. Millman's paint articles are pseudo-science.  Actually, I was thinking of the entirety of the published remarks in English about the relics over the last 18 years and recalling that among the analysis there is some that I consider pseudo-scientific analysis.  I made a point of not singling anyone out about that, and I'd be grateful if you would not put words in my mouth.  

I have no way of knowing how you yourself offer advice to modellers, Tarnship.  I hope it is not with the haste in which you replied to me here.  

As I said above, I have not seen any new Zero airplane.  However, I have been witness to most of the relevant comments about the color of the Zero since Mr. Lansdale's first article came out around first quarter of 1996.  I and a small number of others, including Mr. Millman, challenged some of his thinking on the subject in writing and on J-Aircraft.com.  We did so independently.  In fact, I hinted above that Mr. Millman and I share some of the same ideas.    

The American modeller who is not steeped in all of this discussion is at a disadvantage, which is on top of the disadvantage of never having seen a new Zero in the flesh, and some other disadvantages.  But to someone like me who has been steeped in it, there has just been way too much of it over the years and for me it has grown tiresome.  (Robert Mikesh won't even comment on it.)  Much of the analysis would be bewildering to the uninitiated.  At times it has reached "my measuring device is better than your measuring device."  I cannot blame any modeller who is thinking in the back of his mind, "Spare me the details.  Just tell me what model paint to use."  

I'm sure I have nothing more of value to say on this subject, so seconding Jack's reference to a Holy Grail, I'll finish my part of this thread here.  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, December 29, 2014 11:41 AM

Yea, I don't think we want weathered paint in the bottle, since many modellers do incorporate some form of weathering in their finishing techniques.   An approximate match to factory paint(s) would we nice, but seems to be another one of those holy grails.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, December 29, 2014 11:27 AM

Ah yes, Polly Scale/Floquil Aged Concrete... Unfortunately those paints are OOP. BUT... Testors has re introduced the colors in the few Railroad colors recently issued under their railroad colorss in their expanded Model Master acrylics. I found some at a very old railroad hobby shop which I recently took a peek into.

So for those not trying to model a new A6M2 on the deck of Akagi as she sailed across the nothern Pacific in heavy fog of 3pm of December 6 1941, that is an option open to you.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Monday, December 29, 2014 10:53 AM

I think you have your idea of "help" all backwards. The way you word is just on the border of insulting to people that have tried to help others choose colors, but not quite over that line.

I really have no use for a list of paints that "won't work according to someone" to paint a model when I ask what color I need. I already know 400 model colors that "aren't close enough". (every modeler does)

Even if I get 5 different answers that hit at or near my ballpark goal,,,,,,,that still steers me somewhere closer than I was when I asked. As for that "didn't ask", with 16 different possible times for the color's usage,,,,,,,we are hardly ever told that, all we ever see is "what do I need to buy for an acrylic Blue Gray for the Wildcat".

One other thing that you mentioned when you called Nick's paint articles "Quasi Science" is that the paint is only a match in some conditions. That is true,,,,,,,and it is true for ALL hobby paints on EVERY built model. That is because we don't have to match the parameters of paint performance that the prototype paint did in actual usage, and we don't have to match the actual paint formula with our hobby paints. (that is a straw man argument, in other words) No hobby paint ever produced had to be the exact color as the FS chip (for example) in all the lighting parameters specified, and then be tough in the rain, in sunshine, with the least amount of corrosion, or anti-chalking, hammer resistant (yes, USN was "ding-less, just like a muscle car repaint)

I am just going to keep right on giving straight answers to the color questions, such as "XYZ is a match, but ABC missed the mark", and even show a photo of the standard with the hobby color up against it. I figure that modelers are then intelligent enough to decide with the evidence right before their eyes.

Rex (yeah, "Quasi Science" lit me off, lol)

almost gone

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by Spruesome on Monday, December 29, 2014 10:34 AM

Coogrfan and Deattilio, I have generally refrained from advising people what model paints to use (as opposed to what paints not to use) because color selection is like choosing a hat or sunglasses.  It's a very personal thing.  It depends on what sort of model you're making and what your modelling philosophy is.  That is why I cringe when I see modellers telling other modellers what paints to use, without at least getting a feel for the builder's goals.

Around 2000, one man told me that I needed to use Polly Scale "Concrete" for a Model 21 Zero.  No reason was given as to why.  He did not ask me if I wanted to make a new plane in Japan, a four-month-old plane at Lae, or a two-year old derelict.  He did not ask me if I wanted to make a diorama, where time of day, lighting and cloud cover might be important.  He did not ask me if I was making a Mitsubishi-built plane or the somewhat later Nakajima-built Model 21.  He did not ask me about my display lighting, which really affects coloring.  Still, he "just knew" that I what I needed was Polly Scale Concrete.  (Incidentally, it's no longer being made.)

Besides, I am not familiar with what's under those two caps or with AK Interactive.  I often use Testor's dinosaur paints, the ones in the quarter-ounce bottles with square bottoms.  Gloss paint saves me the trouble of glossing something up for decals.  I custom mix.  It's fun to custom mix.  "Try it; you'll like it."

I am flattered to be asked, but I won't recommend any of the above.  I will say, though, that I like the color on the cap of that upper tin, Coogrfan.  I'd be tempted to investigate it further, see if it has some gloss or how it looks under semi-gloss clear and matt clear; see how it behaves under the intended display lighting; check whether I can see even a trace of burnt orange.  I wouldn't accept it for a NEW Mitsubishi-built Model 21 if it didn't have at least a trace of burnt orange or brown.  "Trace" means a negligible amount.

I can at least tell you, since you ask me, if I think you look silly in a particular hat or sunglasses.  For the exterior of a Zero, that sort of Panzer yellow one by White Ensign does not compute.  How did they label it?  They don't recommend it for the Zero, do they?  

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: New Port Richey
Posted by deattilio on Sunday, December 28, 2014 4:09 PM

Is AK Interactive’s new WWII IJN Aircraft Colors set a decent representation of colors for the Zero?  I have a build planned and picked up the AK set to ease hunting the colors down separately.
I am not building an actual Zero but rather a Hollywood Zero based on a T-6 Texan but wanted the colors and markings to be accurate for a WWII Zero.

 

WIP:
Trying to get my hobby stuff sorted - just moved and still unpacking.

 

"Gator, Green Catskill....Charlie On Time"
 

 

  • Member since
    March 2009
Posted by coogrfan on Sunday, December 28, 2014 1:06 PM

Spruesome - I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the White Ensign Colourcoats Zero paints.


  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by Spruesome on Friday, December 26, 2014 8:26 AM

(Stikpusher, the latest issue of FSM has exactly that slippery slope in the form of new Vallejo paints for simulating lighting on particular panels of a tank model.  I don't advocate going to that extreme to paint a model.)

Thanks for your comments on XF-76, jgeratic.  Tamiya's own print media portray their XF-76 as being very green, virtually devoid of any sort of honey or amber color, warmth, etc.  If XF-76 is even within the range of perceived colors projected by the paint of the real planes, it is at the extreme green end of that range.  I am trying to give Tamiya the benefit of the doubt here.  Even if I used acrylic, I would not choose XF-76 for the exterior of a Model 21 Zero.

I read that XF-76 is matt, which would be another reason it does not match.  The paint on the pre-July 1943 Model 21 is said to be somewhat glossy, and indeed the very same naval officer said it was somewhat glossy as of February 1942 (in a report, the title of which is abbreviated to "KuuGiHou 0266").

It is also not a match in that one could not paint a panel repair on a real Model 21 with Tamiya XF-76 and expect it to blend perfectly with the factory-applied paint, simply because it is a different sort of material.  (I say this with 40 years of automotive background, knowing how difficult it is to repaint part but not all of a car body.  If I were to respray a car door with Tamiya or Model Master or Vallejo model paint, I could not hope for it to match the adjacent factory finish.)  I could get close, however, for the purposes of some lighting and angles.  This is what modelling must settle for.  

(Years ago, I published my own partial rebuttal to Mr. Lansdale's early article on the colors of the Zero, seeing that his article was already starting to cause confusion in the modelling world.  It appeared in an Asahi Journal around 1999, and is titled "When Light Gray-Green Isn't".  Nick Millman was a subscriber at the time.  Some of what Nick has said on the subject since then is very similar to what I wrote but it is not credited to me.  Nor does Nick tend to credit the Japanese researchers on whom he sometimes relies for his writings on this and other topics, such as Mr. Owaki, Mr. Nohara, Mr. Kurosu, "Mr. Summer" and others.  It would be a pleasure to see the Japanese researchers get their due, for a change, in the writings of Westerners.)

I saw Nick's aging progression a couple of years ago.  While I think he has the right general idea, I do not think he has taken the oxidation process far enough toward a pale, neutral gray.  We know from the color photos of a wrecked Zero on Munda taken maybe mid-1944 (one or more of which is from the Jeff Ethell collection) that the paint on that particular wreck has a thick layer of whitish oxidation at the top.  It represents maybe 12-16 months under very intense sun.  

Nick apparently had a particular relic in mind when he wrote, "...protected from light and exposure for many years...".  That must refer to underside pieces, because certainly the upper surfaces of a plane are not "protected from light and exposure".  On the contrary, any paint underneath the oxidation layer of that Zero wreck on Munda had by the time of the photograph been heated by the sun a great deal, day after day, and possibly irreparably damaged by it.  Even without that sort of repeated baking, some paints and other materials yellow and brown with age.  Is this news?

The problem with Nick's chips or anyone else's, and the pseudo-science revolving around relics, the color measurements, the use of Japanese color words, and all of the other pencil sharpening to find The One True Color, is that there is not just one true color.  There is a range of colors we would see from the one paint, which I believe makes obsessing over any one of them unproductive.

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, December 26, 2014 12:46 AM

Nothing against Joe, he does beautiful work with his aircraft builds, but I don't think the Tamiya paint can be properly assessed as the piece he is showing has already been weathered, plus all the other peripherals like lighting, different monitors etc. 

I find XF-76  straight from the bottle is decidedly more green than anything,  For kicks, I pulled a trio of Tamiya images and pasted them on the Zero Joe had linked earlier.  It was already said not to judge paint by the cap colour, but why is Joe's more 'caramel' in tone? 

-----------------------------------------------

Sprucesome- any opinion on Nick Millman's writing on Zero colours?  He runs the blog Aviation of Japan, and here is a sample of one of his entries.  Scroll down about two thirds for interesting read on Zero Paint Degradation Schematic Models:

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2011_12_01_archive.html

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, December 25, 2014 1:51 PM

Spruesome, threads here often meander in the manner of this one. My point was not use musuem aircraft as hard fast references, not to hijack and change it to a discussion of the B-26. It is still about the color of the Zero. The USAF Museum Zero was brought up as an example, so I brought up a cautionary point using a known reference, their B-26.  Rick re inforced the point, with photogrphic links, as often occurs here. I do believe that this is a group open discussion and where all members are welcome to contribute with input directly on topic or related in some manner. That is the way that this forum has been working over the years.

As far as thinking like an artist when painting models that is a very slippery slope... depicting a gray Zero in the sunrise or sunset hours when the suns rays are refracted by the atmosphere and that peculiar red orange lighitng occurs could lead to some interesting looking aircaft ;)

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by Spruesome on Thursday, December 25, 2014 9:59 AM

Lawdog, if what you show in your photo above is a good representation of the Tamiya paint, then it is probably in the ballpark, maybe even a metameric match.  

I think you will find that model paint manufacturers have made plenty of mistakes over the years, so I do not assume that just because a company is Japanese it will get everything that relates to Japanese WWII airplanes, including the shapes, correct.  

Tamiya XF-76 is not likely to be a perfect match for all lighting conditions and angles (a very high standard), and that is because it is not made of the same materials as the real paint was.

The words ame iro (you can write them separately like this if you like; note the spelling -- no "h"), mean "candy color".  This particular ame (飴) is a generic word for sweets.  Therefore, it has a somewhat broad meaning, as seen by the various interpretations Japanese people have for it.  If you were to plug that kanji into a Google search, you'd get a huge variety of sweets.

I agree with you lawdog114, that perhaps no one can definitively say what color the Model 21 was, because there is no one color.  There may not even be just one paint.  The perceived colors of a given surface change as lighting changes.  Just watch what happens to the color of your car or a mountain over a period of hours as the sun travels through the sky.  This is a concept lost on many modellers due to lack of art classes in schools.  The engineer in us tells us that the paint has not changed during the day or night, so therefore it can be only one color.  However, that is only true for one set of lighting conditions and angles.  The challenge for the modeller is not to think like an engineer or scientist, but to think like an artist in painting models.

Rick and Stikpusher, as much as I love the Martin B-26, this thread is not about it.  Can I ask for your cooperation?

Thank you and merry Christmas.

  • Member since
    December 2013
  • From: Greenville, TX.
Posted by Raymond G on Thursday, December 25, 2014 7:12 AM

Wow, what a cool subject.  I've got plans for my first Japanese plane coming up later this year and this, and forgive the pun on Christmas day, gets me into the spirit ;-)  Merry Christmas guys!  Raymond

On the Bench:

U.S.S. Arizona (Revell)

P-51D Tribute (Revell)

57 Chevy Bel Air

 

 

 

 

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