Ford Trimotor

bondoman my friend you blather nothing man! at the contrary Im excited to read a lot of info about this classic bird which I supoused I know quite well... but now I realized that I knew nothing! You guys are the gurus of this bird! Long time since I wanted to build this bird but I just find it in "strange scales" so Im feeding up of all the info Im reading from this thread to start planing to scratch my own Ford in 1/48, of course it's gonna take some time, meanwhile Im fighting with this old Monogram's T-28 which it's giving some troubles.... What it troubles me it's that I can't find any blueprints, planes or pictures of the interior of this Ford, cockpit and passenger areas.

Im quite aware about the Revell's Ju-52, Im already have it in display in my showcase! :-)

And this is not my thread, it's everybody's thread! :-) So let's keep it alive to commemorate this classic and almost forgotten bird.

Cheers!

trexx wrote:

bondoman wrote: General Motors owned 40% of Fokker in 1929 and changed the name of the division to the General Aviation Manufacturing Company. This eventually became North American Aviation, which was controlled by GM. Their competitor, Ford, had purchased the Stout Metal Airplane Company which had pioneered design of all-metal monoplane transports, with connection to Packard. It's suggested that Stout was connected to Junkers designs, but I haven't found that cited. In the same vein E.L. Cord of auto fame acquired Lycoming and Stinson, and then hired Gerald Vultee to form Aircraft Development Corporation. When Cord went bankrupt, the Vultee Aircraft co. was born. Of course later Consolidated Vultee and Convair. The auto industry were truly the titans of the American industrial community. The Fokker F7 had plenty of metal, but a lot of wood too. Of course the crash that killed Knute Rockne did them in over here...   Excellent comments, Bondoman! It's hard for us to imagine, but Knute was as popular as... let's say... Brad Pitt or equivalent. It was a massive slam to the fledgling air travel industry. Douglas Aviation Company swaggered up to bat shortly thereafter with a world winner...

CW has it as the B 247 because that one came out a year ahead of the Douglas liner. I'm a big big fan of Kindelberger and Atwood so I don't swallow that pill easily, and the DC-3 obviously became the best of all.

Must have if you don't already:

http://www.amazon.com/Plane-That-Changed-World-Biography/dp/0816875006

My dad is a retired aeronautical engineer. When I was a kid we went over to Hawaii (Oahu) in 59 and then on to the Big Island. That trip was on a DC-3 (probably Hawaian Airlines) with side facing benches, it was me, dad and mom and a chain gang of Hawaians returning from some road work. Dad makes friends with anyone, so after a couple of days on the island we go out to the prison, where he meets his buddies and they buy a whole load of stuff like 4 foot long Koa wood salad fork/ spoons etc. Dad didn't have any trouble getting all that stuff squirelled away on the DC-7 back to SF.

United had sold it's Strats to BOAC in 54 to cover for the grounding of the Comet fleet. One of his early tasks was to calculate how much later the DC-7 second class a/c had to leave SF after the daily first class Strat, so that the rich people got there first, barely.

Von Alfalfa I'm so sorry to blather, and do NOT mean to jack your thread.

There are large scale Tri's in the stick and tissue world, but it's not right, is it?

Revell makes a 1/48 JU-52 and just about everybody has a JU-86. It's just not fair about the old Ford. There are a number of really nice tinplate toys though, which fascinate me.

bondoman wrote:

General Motors owned 40% of Fokker in 1929 and changed the name of the division to the General Aviation Manufacturing Company. This eventually became North American Aviation, which was controlled by GM. Their competitor, Ford, had purchased the Stout Metal Airplane Company which had pioneered design of all-metal monoplane transports, with connection to Packard. It's suggested that Stout was connected to Junkers designs, but I haven't found that cited. In the same vein E.L. Cord of auto fame acquired Lycoming and Stinson, and then hired Gerald Vultee to form Aircraft Development Corporation. When Cord went bankrupt, the Vultee Aircraft co. was born. Of course later Consolidated Vultee and Convair. The auto industry were truly the titans of the American industrial community. The Fokker F7 had plenty of metal, but a lot of wood too. Of course the crash that killed Knute Rockne did them in over here...

 

Excellent comments, Bondoman!

It's hard for us to imagine, but Knute was as popular as... let's say... Brad Pitt or equivalent. It was a massive slam to the fledgling air travel industry. Douglas Aviation Company swaggered up to bat shortly thereafter with a world winner...

General Motors owned 40% of Fokker in 1929 and changed the name of the division to the General Aviation Manufacturing Company. This eventually became North American Aviation, which was controlled by GM.

Their competitor, Ford, had purchased the Stout Metal Airplane Company which had pioneered design of all-metal monoplane transports, with connection to Packard. It's suggested that Stout was connected to Junkers designs, but I haven't found that cited.

In the same vein E.L. Cord of auto fame acquired Lycoming and Stinson, and then hired Gerald Vultee to form Aircraft Development Corporation. When Cord went bankrupt, the Vultee Aircraft co. was born. Of course later Consolidated Vultee and Convair.

The auto industry were truly the titans of the American industrial community.

The Fokker F7 had plenty of metal, but a lot of wood too. Of course the crash that killed Knute Rockne did them in over here.

Here's my Frog F7

Not only was the Ford Tri Motor all American, the entire aircraft design was produced with  Henry Ford's new fangled "production-line" technique in mind.

rangerj wrote:

If I recall correctly the Ford Tri-Motor was a Fokker built under license by Ford. Is this correct?

I think not. The Fokker FVII/FVIIM was wooden.  It was, however, manufactured in the US under licence. I think that the US licencees weren't that good at glueing, and it came unstuck, in more ways than one. Hence Boeing 247 and DC-2 became very popular.

 

Hi Pete,

Just seems to me keeping it all monochrome would make it look too boring.

Yes, had a look at my Trimotor, and I did make fairly wide use of BMF to break up the monotone effect, especially on the wing uppersurfaces. One point is that the corrugations tend to break up reflected light, and thus make the finish look duller than it otherwise would be.

I am just wondering perhaps it might work out easier to create my own chairs from cut pieces of plastic sheets? Then I can pre-scribe them to show the wicker chair texture.

The backs of the chairs are curved in 3 dimensions, so I'd stick with the kit items. I'd be astonished if you could see any wicker effect through the cabin glazing. Even if it wasn't dark in there (and it is), the angles are all wrong. The wing prevents you from seeing anything much.

But I guess after sanding down you might see a gap at where the wing joins the fuselage. Would you?

You might, but that's what Milliput is for...

 The flaps, ailerons and rudder are molded as part of the wings and tail fin etc. and looks like one solid piece with the wings and tail fin etc. Did you cut them off and reshape and re-attach them?

I deepened the hinge lines with an Olfa P-cutte, and later ran a dark acrylic wash into them. They look OK. Removing and reprofiling the ailerons would involve practically rebuilding them, and filling the huge gap in the wing that would result.

Cheers,

Chris.

 

For the cockpit glass, try a spot of silicone bathtub seal.

In my opinion the trimotor in the Smithsonian is painted silver, but I cannot be certain. In any case, it looks very silver paintish.

Take your pics from the front.

I really like the idea of replacing the control wires and horns. But that speaks to the quality of the original kit.

The cockpit clear part in my kit has a chip at the bottom of the bottom of the front most tip ... Will probably show up bad and cannot really be fixed. I will probably go ahead and try my hand on acetate shaping and bending - Will leave the original untouched so if the acetate work does not work I can go back and use the cockpit clear part from the kit.

I seems to see some photos of Trimotor flying today that shows patchwork effect around the leading edge of the wings and near the top of the fuselage where it meets the wings. After all I guess the Trimotor is constructed out of many pieces of corrugated metal and NOT one single piece. And although the Trimotor surface itself may be monochrone the patchwork effect might arise out of various parts of the plane reflecting lights at different angle. Just seems to me keeping it all monochrome would make it look too boring.

Thanks for sharing the tips on improving passenger chair; seems to be quite a lot of changes ... I am just wondering perhaps it might work out easier to create my own chairs from cut pieces of plastic sheets? Then I can pre-scribe them to show the wicker chair texture.

Although the Trimotor is no F-104 the trailing edge of the wings should still be pretty sharp from real life photos I saw on the net. I think this makes sense as very thin trailing edge gives better aerodynamics and in real life it is probably harder to produce a thick trailing edge than a thin one. Your technique of sanding from the inside of the 2 wing halves before gluing them is about what I am thinking of doing. But I guess after sanding down you might see a gap at where the wing joins the fuselage. Would you?

One more question. The flaps, ailerons and rudder are molded as part of the wings and tail fin etc. and looks like one solid piece with the wings and tail fin etc. Did you cut them off and reshape and re-attach them? Otherwise would they look bad and unrealistic?

Regards,

Peter Lim

 

ps: I am working on my Trimotor model a bit at a time. But I am a snail pace modeller.
     Will share some photos when I eventually have something to share .

 

If you are going to scratch build the Tri-Motor you will need the corragated sheet plastic produced by Evergreen Plastics in various "scales". If I recall correctly the Ford Tri-Motor was a Fokker built under license by Ford. Is this correct? The Tri Motor was used to fly folks from the mainland to the Lake Erie Islands and back (back in the day). I did this flight once before the aircraft were "retired". I wanted to do the Grand Canyon tour in the Tri Motor, but did not get the chance. These aircraft are really "bare bones" inside. There was a set of plans available in various scales from the "Cleveland Models Company". Cleveland Models is out of business, but the plans were sold by the Estate of the owner and many of the old plans are still available. I think there is a 1/32 scale set of plans for the Tri Motor that can be converted to 1/48th scale relatively easily.  The Monogram kit with the skies and the dog sled is the Admiral Byrd kit. Adm. Byrd took a Tri-Motor to the South Pole or North Pole (cannot remember which at the moment). Anyway, it was a historic occasion and the kit memorializes it.

Hi Pete,

I am also contemplating replacing the cockpit clear part with some acetate pieces cut and bent into shape. Of course that will be more challenging to hold in place with white glue.

I'd think carefully before doing that. When dipped in Future, the kit canopy, though thick, is plenty clear enough to see the detail inside. Plus, I think you'd have fit problems at the wing leading edge.

 How shinny is the corrugated metal sheet on the Trimotor (the particular one featured in the Airfix kit decal)? Should I paint it with normal aluminum color or use Alclad-II paint?

Its degree of shininess varied throughout its life. Today, hanging from the roof of the Smithsonian, it's very shiny. In the early days of its working life, probablly less so. I see from my notes that I used Humbrol Metalcote Polished Aluminium as the main paint for the NMF, with a few panels in matt Aluminium Bare Metal Foil, which is still quite shiny. I polished the Metalcote to a fairly high degree of shine, so yes, the finished model was pretty shiny.

You could, therefore, use Alcald II Aluminium and/ or Duralumin, but I'd resist the temptation to overdo the patchwork effect. Trimotors looked pretty monochrome.

I understand that the Trimotor cabin windows can be "opened" by the passengers. Do you know how the open/close mechanism work for these cabin windows? Does it go up/down? Or front/back? And when closed is 2 panes of glass visible from the outside?

I didn't know that they were. Even at a cruising speed of 90 mph, I'd think that an open window would be a good way of annoying your fellow passengers. To say nothing of the engine noise and exhaust and oil fumes. Plus, even at a crusing altitude of 10 000 ft, (pretty much the limit due to no pressuraization) it's cold at high altitudes. Especially in winter over the midwest.  I'd want to check my sources on that. I think.

You noted in your other posting that you "improved the passenger chair". What do you do to it? Did you reproduce the wicker texture of the chair? ... I believe the Trimotor had wicker chairs.

First, I thinned them down from the inside using the motor tool at low speed, so that the passengers would fit in more easily. Then I reshaped the backs of the seats to give them a curved, as opposed to square, profile. note that airliners were not generally fitted with seat belts for the passengers in the late 1920s/ eary 1930s, though flying Trimotors today are, of course.

When viewed from the back of the trailing edge of the wings is VERY THICK. In real life it should taper off to a very sharp edge. Did you do something to trim down the thickness of the trailing edge? What are the steps you take to do the trimming?

I sanded down the trailing edge from the inside, using a sanding block and increasingly fine grades of wet&dry, starting at 220 and finishing with 1200, and carefully and frequently test-fitting to ensure that all was going well. I didn't try for an excessively sharp trainling edge. The Trimotor is not, after all, a F-104!

Cheers,

Chris.

BTW, Bondo - of course you can use filler on the Trimotor - it's abrasives you can't use. MIlliput is your friend. Tippex too.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing.

I certainly do not have illusion about this kit being shake&bake . having collected a bunch of Trimotor photos I am having an AMS attack ... I have already shaved off the control arms molded into the sides of the fuselage so that I can replace them with some scratch built ones.

I am also contemplating replacing the cockpit clear part with some acetate pieces cut and bent into shape. Of course that will be more challenging to hold in place with white glue.

I have some additional questions ...

(1) How shinny is the corrugated metal sheet on the Trimotor (the particular one featured in the Airfix kit decal)? Should I paint it with normal aluminum color or use Alclad-II paint?

(2) I understand that the Trimotor cabin windows can be "opened" by the passengers. Do you know how the open/close mechanism work for these cabin windows? Does it go up/down? Or front/back? And when closed is 2 panes of glass visible from the outside?

(3) You noted in your other posting that you "improved the passenger chair". What do you do to it? Did you reproduce the wicker texture of the chair? ... I believe the Trimotor had wicker chairs.

(4) When viewed from the back of the trailing edge of the wings is VERY THICK. In real life it should taper off to a very sharp edge. Did you do something to trim down the thickness of the trailing edge? What are the steps you take to do the trimming? Obviously sanding it down from the outside of the wings after the 2 halves are glued together is out of the question as that would sand off the corrugated metal lines as well which is not acceptable.

 

Regards,

Peter Lim.

 

Ah, I didn't see page 2 looks like you already got some pretty good answers.

piperjoe wrote:

Thanks for the paint shemes, Von Alfalfa (can you SING like Alfalfa too ?).  I especially like the Navy JR-1 and the Scenic Airways versions. Does anyone have comments on the Revell Tri-Motor kit?

I built one a couple years ago, its an odd scale but really I think close enough that if it were sitting with other 1/72 aircraft no one would notice unless they whipped out a tape measure.

Very basic kit, no interior detail, I don't think there is even a cockpit, but the windows are so small you wouldn't see much anyway. Exterior detail is ok, nothing fancy but not too bad. It offers the option of skis and comes with some antarctic explorers, dog sled etc.

Its cheap, its an easy build and it looks like a Tri-motor when you are done. 

Whats on the hob? We had left over Indian this morning, which did me no good at all later in the day.

The biggest issue I had was with the mudguards on the main tires. There was no way they were going to line up over where they needed to be, and the whole leg thing is really complex. I guess next time I'd cut them off first and glue to the top of the tires later.

There's also an interesting exercise involving working mail bins on the underside of each wing. It reminded me of the Sunderland bomb roller deal, better to not get into building the bays etc. but just glue the covers closed.

But the big tweak yer toe is the fact that you CANNOT use filler anywhere other than the nose under the pilots nose, which doesn't need it, all on account of the corrugations. So work slowly and carefully. I only really did not like where the outer upper wings met the middle section. There ended up being a missing corrugation rib. So I stretched a piece of monofilament, actually two, across there and flooded it with CA, then when dry trimmed the ends and it looked good.

Oh and the decals are super out of register, but that is always a fun challenge to find replacements.

In conclusion, the Airfix Trimotor is IMHO a must have, it's the only good scale one, and it can become something really impressive. At 1/72 it's a big dude, too, not too much smaller than a DC-3.

Hi Peter,

I used white glue to cement the glazing strps in place. Any form of liquid poly won't work, acetate not being polystyrene, and superglue causes it to fog. White glue is plenty strong enough.

Second, only the stewardess is HO scale (1/87) The passenger figures are OO scale (1/76) abd the flight crew are 1/72 (came with the kit). You'll never notice the difference in scale between 1/72 and 1/76 through the cabin windows, and while you might notice the difference between 1/72 and 1/87, again, you can't actually see much of the stew through the cabin windows, and anyway, she's petite!

Plus, I happened to have a set of Presier 1/87 artists and nude models in the spares box, bought at a local market, which saved having to send off for a figure in the correct scale! Her dress, remember, is made from strips of Tamiya tape, cut to size and shape.

Anything else I might be able to help with, feel free to PM me. The kit is not shake&bake!

Cheers,

Chris.

Thats a fine kit. I just went out to the shop and looked at the one I've got built up. Fixing the cabin windows would be a worthwhile exercise, they are distorted. I'd glue the replacements in with white glue, the Elmers kind.

As for figures, Preiser makes all kinds of good ones in 1/72 standing. If you want sitting passengers, since all you can see is their heads, I'd chop up some folks and glue their upper halves into the seats. And I went with drop down shades at various heights, which seemed to be common.

HO is 1:87

Hi Chris,

I am also trying to build the Airfix Trimotor just of nostalgia's sake. 

I noticed in another post you wrote "The cabin windows are at least 40 thou thick, and all have sink marks in them. They also don't fit very well. Replace with strips of clear acetate".

I have similar idea but am wondering how do you glue clear acetate to the fuselage? Clear acetate does not seem to react to Tamiya Extra Thin plastic cement or superglue. ...

Another note is that you said you use HO scale passenger figures. Aren't they of wrong size? I thought HO scale is like 1:86 scale or something like that.

 

Regards,

Peter.

 

 

A search for the tiny tri-motor turned up VLE models 1/144 offering. It is far more difficult than other available kits, but take a look at all those tiny parts. A look at VLE's website unfortunately showed that the Tri-motor is no longer or not currently available.

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2007/july/first-looks/vle_ford.php

My Airfix Tri-Motor was purchased with the intent on converting it into a Bushmaster, but have since given up on that and will just build it OOB.

... and all can be built for the Civil Airliner GB if you can finish before the end of the year.

piperjoe wrote:

Thanks, guys, for the  great pics and information on kit differences.  As I'm not too concerned about the scale I'll check our LHS for the Airfix kit and Michaels (can use the 40% off coupon ) for the Revell kit.  Guess I just like the old time nostagia effect one gets from building these 'ole birds.

If that thought sticks, go 1/72 and there's a bunch of old timers that you don't see built, but are fun. The Frog Fokker F7 "Southern Cross", the Airfix Dragon Rapide, the DC-3, the Beech Twins, Lockheed "star" series. Early B-17s. Any of the Williams Bros. kits.

And then there's the esoteric and expensive.

One in Florida

Survivors

Thanks, guys, for the  great pics and information on kit differences.  As I'm not too concerned about the scale I'll check our LHS for the Airfix kit and Michaels (can use the 40% off coupon ) for the Revell kit.  Guess I just like the old time nostagia effect one gets from building these 'ole birds. 

Bear in mind that the Monogram (now Revell) 1/77 and Airfix 1/72 Trimotors are of different versions of the aircraft. The Monogram kit has sloped cockpit glazing, and, IIRC, fewer cabin side windows and different engines. The original boxing of the Monogram kit, and some of he later re-boxings, came with skis and a dog sled team, complete with 1/77 huskies! The Airfix kit comes with pilot figures, wearing natty peaked caps!

Cheers,

Chris.

piperjoe,

Here are a couple pics of the Revell Tri-Motor I put together some time back. It was a very simple build and the only fit issue I had was the canopy, which took some sanding to blend in with the fuesalage. I also spliced the wheels in half because they appeared ridiculously narrow, to me anyway.

I also have Airfix's Tri-Motor, but it is still in the stash not even unwrapped yet.

Several months back I remember seeing there was a company producing one a Tri-Motor in 1/144 and appears to have far more parts and complexity than the Revell kit.

If Revell or Monogram put out a 1/48 Tri-Motor I would definately pick one up, not so much Trumpeteer only because safe bet it would be costly.

piperjoe,

Here are a couple pics of the Revell Tri-Motor I put together some time back. It was a very simple build and the only fit issue I had was the canopy, which took some sanding to blend in with the fuesalage. I also spliced the wheels in half because they appeared ridiculously narrow, to me anyway.

I also have Airfix's Tri-Motor, but it is still in the stash not even unwrapped yet.

Several months back I remember seeing there was a company producing one a Tri-Motor in 1/144 and appears to have far more parts and complexity than the Revell kit.

If Revell or Monogram put out a 1/48 Tri-Motor I would definately pick one up, not so much Trumpeteer only because safe bet it would be costly.

Great links aardvark!

Thanks! :-)

Some Trimotor sites:

Where Are They Now?

Simple Plan

Trimotor.org

Ford Trimoter Manual (for sale via Historic Aviation)

Of course I can.... ahem!.... You are so beauuuutiful...... to meeeeeeeee.....

Not you!.. that's how's the song goes... .anyways... Does anyone know's if theres available some blueprints to download of this trimotor? Im planing to scartch it in 1/48... not now but in a near future,... I hope...

Cheers!