Kermit now thats looking like a NMF P-51 These kind of problems are what worries me about using paint, as I have found the foil doesnt have near the troubles that paint does.

CallSignOwl I havent done a painted NMF but from what I have found the MM gloss enamels seem to take 3 or 4 days to fully cure.

Owl,

Sounds like you are experiencing the same stuff i had with my first NMF's... Sounds like you sprayed it too "wet". Try using two or even three thinner layers with 15 minutes inbetween your coats and you'll have no runners anymore

Richard

Vetteman: good to hear you got the decals. Am looking forward to seeing the Streak Eagle started now

And thanks for the advice on the Future. I'm sorry to admit though I fiddled around this weekend with different amounts of thinner, different ratios of mixed gloss and matte paint, different air pressures, laying down thin coats vs. thicker coats and every single bleeding time I got a pebbly finish that feels like 400 grit sandpaper. I ended up cursing like a sailor on Sunday no less.

Guys, I'm afraid I'm dropping out for the time being. I've got some other stuff I want to get built and need to blow off some stress. I came very close to flinging the model into the wall several times. Will be back when I feel better...

Gamera sorry to hear about the paint troubles. NMF is tough to paint thats why this GB exist so we can al throw ideas around and help each other out. Put the model away for a while and take a break. Come back in a week and strip her down and have another go at it. I do not know of anyone who nailed there first attemp and NMF. I have done three builds with my Talon paints and each one has been better than the last but still not perfect. Stripping a bad paint job is no big deal and I haver done it several times. I use to thing a bad paint job was the end of a build but once you learn how to strip off a bad paint job it is no big deal. Just a setback and it keeps you from having thoses half done models sitting in the closet.

Owl Kermit is right. It has been my experience with any paint that building it up in several light coats is always better. The paint seem to dry faster lay down better and adhere better if you apply it this way. Plus once you master being able to lay down mist coats you can really do some cool stuff to achive fading effects and shading to really bring models to life.

Soulcrusher

Gamera I am sorry to hear you have hit the wall. I have been there myself more than I would like to admit, so hang in there and come back to the model when you can. Soulcrusher gives good advise so a huge with what he has said.

i was looking over the paint job again an noticed where the paint was heavy it was smooth but covered up details, and where it was thinner, it had an orange peel texture....  

what did I do wrong?  what should the thin misting coats look like when they are laid down? the thinner passes i did, I got a orange-peel effect. that's why I went a little closer/heavier.   did the paint need to be thinned? higher air pressure?

would sanding own the runny areas ruin the shiny finish?

sorry for all the questions!

OWL

Owl are you spraying enamels? If so they can be tricky. If you spray them on heavy there usally will be less orange peel because the thicker paint takes longer to dry and has a longer time to lay flat. If you spray it on in light coats but it is not thinned properly it will dry much faster and it can not level out. All reasons why I never use enamels. There is not much room for error in learning.

You can sand it smooth if the paint isd thick enough. This is a very time consuming process as you will have to go through different grades of sandpaper till you end wet sanding with a extemely fine grade. You never know when you are going to sand right thought the paint either. The only problem in doing that is the extra paint will stay in the panel lines and they will disappear.

Soulcrusher

yes Soulcrusher I used an enamel. i usually use acrylics, but the hobby lobby i go to only had the bright paint i wanted in MM Enamels.   It is not horrible, and I dont want to strip it, but if there is a way to salvage the paint job I'll do it.

what kind of grade sandpaper would be best appropriate?  I have up to 1500 grit. do i need finer? also the kit I used had raised details. I say had because I think I sanded most of it off in some places...

the under-coat is actually aluminum paint over-coated with Future...i don't know if that'll make any difference?

OWL

With the raised panel lines the chances of being able to sand the paint down without sanding it completely of the raised lines are not good. You could just try your luck and sand down any areas you do not like and just respray thoses areas. There are really no good acrylic paints for painting a NMF besides the Talon paints that I used on my P-35. They metal flake in them just does not look right and it ends up looking like a metal flake paint job instead of alluminum. Try thinning the paints a little more and lowering the air pressure. The thinner the paint the lower the air pressure you need. The extra thinner will give the paint a chance to lay down but you have to spray it differently when you thin it like that. as far as sandpaper goes the best place to get the type you would need would be a store that sells to autobody shops. They will have these ultra fine sandpaper. Mabye experiment on an old model. Airbrushing takes years of pratice to perfect and spraying enamals take pratice also. Alot of these build you see here are being done buy people like me with 30 years of making mistakes and learing what works and what doesn't. Post some pictures of what you have there and good luck!

Soulcrusher

Owl: welcome to the club

The funny thing is I've never had any problems with Alclad itself. My problems have been entirely with getting a smooth undercoat. I can't spray an even gloss to save my life.

I've been using a set similar to this for cleaning up rough spots. The big problem is I've been trying to get a P-38 that I started before this GB done. I went ahead and assembled the kit and can't get between the booms to sand everything evenly. Fortunately the B-29 should go easier as I'm intending to paint the fuselage, wings, and engine nacelles separately and then assemble the thing.

Now that I think about it I think I'm just going to do the P-38 with green over grey and then go with the NM on the B-29 when I get the P-38 done.

Oh and BTW may I add that on the bright side (pardon the pun) I had fantastic luck this weekend with Mister Surfacer 1000. Before I tried laying down the black undercoat on the P-38 I sprayed a coat of MS 1000 with about 40% or so Mister Thinner to lay down an even surface for the black undercoat. I've had some problems with it before but I think I didn't thin it enough. It gave me a beautiful even semi-gloss finish covering all the scratches and uneven spots.

I've used the stuff as an undercoat before and skipped the gloss black paint. Maybe I should stick with that.

The main thing with NMF paints no matter what product you use is a smooth surface to spray on. Spraying on gloss enamals and getting a perfect smooth finish takes alot of pratice. The gloss paints are much less forgiving than the flat finished paints. I use to paint alot of cars and you really have to get the paint thinned properly and then when you spray you have to get a nice overlap with each coat. Not enough paint and it will orange peel. To much and it will run. That is why I am really sold on the Talon paints. You can spray them on the already smooth plastic with no primer coat needed. You just have to make sure you polish the plastic anywhere you have done any seem repairs so the scratches do not show.

Soulcrusher

Hey guys,

I think i'm back in business on this one:

Painted, futured and dried overnight i will be ready to attach the landing gear after work today. Still pondering wether to accentuate some panels with a darker shade of aluminum....

Also just ordered myself some metal foil adhesive this morning. If Randy can paint, i can foil... LOL. Most likely candidate is the monogram Mig15 (looks like an easier foil job and darn cheap on top of that) but i also have my revell P51D now and an early NMF, yellow wing Wildcat by Hobby boss is coming my way

Richard

The Mustang is looking good kermit.

Yup Kermit you went and forced that paint into submission. Well done

Lots of great work going on!

Owl -- SC is right, NMF takes time to learn, there are a set of steps to go through and some techniques are more forgiving than others. I spray Humbrol and MM enamels and cut back the surface with 2000-grit automotive paper, lubricated with water. You have to go ultra-carefully as you can go right through easily, but the technique allows you to cut back/buff out orange peel or other unevennesses, so it's a way of recouping what the airbrush alone may be reluctant to give you. The good news is that with the paint levelled out the finish suddenly looks a lot more metal-like than paint-like. Using the mix of flat aluminium with the chrome silver gets you a finish tough enough to mask over reliably (with Tamiya low-tack tape only, and even that is slightly de-glued before it goes on). Witrh these techniques in combination you can build up a varied overall finish.

I've been spraying for 31 years and I still can't tackle gloss enamels with anything but terror... My next experiment will be flat acrylics followed by Microscale acrylic clear, a formula I've had great success with so far via brush application. If it sprays in anything like a friendly fashion it may be my technique of choice in future.

Good luck -- never forget, two thin coats are better that one thick!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

NiceFit – I think most plastic fuel tanks, ordnance, torpedoes, etc always come in two halves, it is a matter of fit! Tamiya has the better fit. Squadron has a selection of True Details resin AMs on sale every month; I have slowly accumulated bombs, fuel tanks, etc at very cheap prices (less than couple bucks each).  And thanks for posting those instructions. I took advantage of the Lucky Model recent sale and ordered the Tamiya P-51B Blue Nose with figures for about 1/3 of the listed price; you can see it here:

http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=TAM92216

I also have the old Monogram P-51B, I expect SOME differences when it is time to build them lol  I have never seen the P-51B at my Michaels.

Vetteman – No need to apologize at ALL for the shrink tubing idea. *I* wish I could take credit for it, but I read it somewhere (magazine, this forum?) couple years ago. What is important is the fact that it was a useful tip which helped fellow builders, which is the whole point of a GB : )   

Kermit/Richard – Very well done and nice recovery! Bird looks great, look forward to more of your work!

Owl –  Enamels take longer than acrylics to cure; how long depends on the thickness of the coats and where you live! (humidity and heat). I live in southern CT, and USED to say never got as hot as the South, except last week we hit 100+ 3 days in a row, with high humidity lol..   Anyways, I always let my enamels dry/cure for 2-3 days minimum. I use Testors/MM enamels almost exclusively. Just because the paint does not feel “tacky”, it does not mean it is cured. I err on the side of caution and let my pain dry/cure for 3 days; Future coats, also for 2-3 days. I have yet to peel off any paint after masking with those drying times. One last thing…. People thin different ways and use different thinners… I found out that on MY hands, the thinner from testors/MM works better than generic (and cheaper) thinners. Of course, never use lacquer thinner since it is too hot; I only use it to clean the AB at the end of a paint session. I remember the first time I tried out lacquer thinner as my “paint thinner’… I started to spray some ship sub-assembly, and saw my carefully puttied-sanded repair work melt before my eyes lol 

From Swammy’s web site, a primer on AB:

http://www.swannysmodels.com/CJairbrush.html

There was a comprehensive article on FSM but I cannot track it down at the moment. Basically, the trouble-shooting guide states that the vast majority of “orange peel” effects are due to not mixing enough thinner with the paint or AB from too close a distance, as soulcrusher explained.

Sorry for the long post! Will re-start my builds this week. And congrats to La Furia Espanola (Spain) for winning the World Cup, and me and the Mrs for our 20y anniversary!  Cheers all

Richard, she turned out really nice!!!! Excellent recovery!!!!!!!

JMart congratulations on 20yrs together!!!!

...congrats to La Furia Espanola (Spain) for winning the World Cup...

Hmmm...

Thanks for the compliment though (and everybody else ofcourse) and congrats on your anniversary

Richard

Excellent recovery there, Kermit!

Rob

kermit - I like the new look of your Mustang! Great finish. When I've had those discouraging moments, a good night's rest is usually sufficient enough to renew my spirit to try again. I can't wait to see your continued progress.

jmart - I have not had a chance yet to browse Squadron for external fuel tanks. I don't need 'em for my current build but should I tackle another Mustang or Me109 I will certainly take a look.

gamera - I'm sorry to see you banging your head. Time off/away (sometimes for as little as a day) certainly helps. We'll all still be here to welcome you back.

owl, soulcrusher - I'm learning a lot from your dialog on enamels. Thank you.

My progress - I'm gluing the AT-6 Texan fuselage together using the technique outlined in the "Fuselage Building" article. All is going well, but I'm not getting that "ooze" above the seam as described in the technique. I'm guessing it's because the Tamiya Extra Thin Cement is so thin it won't behave that way. Anyway, the bond seems to be good. Note - During the dry-fit, I did notice a gap in the upper/forward part of the fuselage and determined the forward instrument panel was causing the gap. I sanded the port and starboard edges of the panel and will reinstall it after the fuselage halves are glued. Something for you future AT-6 builders to keep in mind...  

Hello everyone,

Here is an update on the P-47. I have finished all of the decalling-lots of small stencils, and have to install the bombs/rockets/fuel tanks and landing gear doors. I am going to spray a coat of Future over the decals- I have found that some came off on my fingers while holding the model to place other decals.

I am still not too sure how I am going to weather it- I kinda like a fresh look, and all planes had to start that way anyways.

Rob

maxfax - She's a beauty! I'm quite impressed with your modeling skills. Well done so far.

alrighty, Im back home now and can upload pictures. there are going to be quite a few detailing the trials and tribulations of this mustang's paint jobs....

the first pic is of the MM paint not wanting to adhere to the bare plastic (or something, i dont really know) so I had to strip it and I applied a base coat od gloss black, but then i got fisheyes!! arg!     I waited until the paint dried then took a cotton ball dipped in iso alcohol and scrubbed them away and repainted the areas.

i then applied the MM acrylic aluminum, but it was not as bright as I wanted so I coated it with future after it cured for preparation of the chrome aluminum

i think you all know what happened next...     i like the shine much more, but I still have a LOT to learn....and fix

PIC HEAVY!!!

anyway thats where shes at now. Im waiting for the enamels to fully cure now, then I will try to fix the trouble areas

Im thinking I will have to get another plane/mustang to do another NMF on and attempt to get it right!

OWL

Owl there one other huge step in preparation for any painting that I do also that makes a huge difference. I take a lint free paper towel and dampen it right before I am going to paint.and wipe down the entire model to remove and residue from the model. As all of the experienced modelers will tell you the number one thing that can ruin a paint job is the naturally occuring oils from our hands. I make it a practice to wash my hands before I sit down to work on my models. Also once I have applied the NMF paints to the model I never hadle the model with my bare hand agian. Most NMF products are very sensitive to fingerprints. Another trick for NMF paint jobs is to polish the paint with a soft piece of and old cotton t shirt. It can remove small imperfections and also bring the shine up a bit.

Soulcrusher

Owl,

I can only concur with what SC is saying. Used to have these peoblems myself everytime i tried to paint (especially) acrylics. A method i found that works for me is using those little paper cloths drenched in alcohol or whatever it is drenched in that people use to clean their glasses. You know,... the little bags that you have to tear open to get the cloth out. Maybe needs a second paper if you did a lot of filling and sanding...

After that i wash my hands and do my spray job. Worked like a charm everytime sofar. Don't use it on painted surfaces though!

Read about other people soaking the sprues in dishwash water before starting their builds. Some kits have alot of grease on them ("mold release") just out of the box that will bug you in the painting phase. It is a phase in the manufacturing process of kits. Sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's not.

Cleaning your assembled kit before your first paintjob is some good solid advice that can only help and not hurt

As for my own P51...

Bad luck and trouble seem to haunt me for this build... Was gathering the landing gear bits and bobs just now and found out i totally LOST some parts. The little hatches that go on the gear legs... Had em painted and stuck to a piece of tamiya tape in order to NOT loose em but appearantly i threw away the tape....

Will go through my spares box after work and hope to solve this one..... So stupid...

Richard

Hey Guys, i havn't posted for a couple of weeks (laptop problems) had to read through the last few pages to catch up.....

Crusher, outstanding work buddy your build looks first class

Raptor, Great choice of builds and a great job on what must be a difficult kit, well done indeed

Rob, Now that looks good, great paintwork and  an excellent  choice of decals.....looking forward to seein some more

Richard, hey welcome back mateHope you had a good trip....Sorry to hear about your Mustang woes but it's good to see you have well in hand now BTW i bet you'd like to make some calamari out of a certain octopus.....

Maxfax/Rob – The NMF paint job looks fantastic! Good recovery on the decals….  Tough call on the “weathering”; she looks so nice and pristine I would be tempted to leave “as is” (factory fresh). Maybe minor soot streaks on the guns and cowling.

Owl – Sorry about your paint tribulations; we all have “been there done that”! I think that is the reason a lot of us try NMF on the cheap Revell ponies instead of the Tamiya P-51s ;)

I will echo what soulcrusher states: prepare the area well. I bought some “tacky cloth”, which is basically a sticky gauze. Helps remove lint and debris from the areas to be painted. Do you have a spray booth? I run the spray booth for a few minutes before painting in order for any airborne particles to settle or get sucked in. I also have boxes in which I keep my models post-prep (and pre-paint) and post-paint. I have two teenage daughters, so I have plenty of shoe boxes of various sizes  . The point is, I never leave the model exposed to air (and dust!). I also wash the sprues at the beginning of the build; not sure if that helps but some of the Asian manufacturers (Trumpeter comes to mind) tend to have a lot of mold release. Finally, do you know any nurse, lab techs, anyone working at a hospital? See if you can get a handful of latex gloves (or you can purchase them). I never handle the build without gloves after the paint job.

Kermit – Sorry about the missing parts; maybe you can find a cheap LG replacement. Scale Aircraft Conversions has white metal LG but sometimes on the pricey side of things.   Enjoy your calamari…  My mother’s side of my family is from Spain, I have been there a few times and became a fan when I was a young lad…so you can imagine my elation, nothing personal mate!

PS – For those who have no clue about soccer/futbol, rooting for Spain is what rooting for the Red Sox used to be… always good, but never an important win, always finding a different way to lose or choke and break your sports heart!

a big thank you to soulcrusher and kermit, both of your advice have been very informative and I really appreciate it!  although I can honestly say that this is the fits kit where I have ever experienced the fisheyes...I'll make sure to wash my kits from now on

Jmart, i do not have a spray both-- but I have an uber-fancy cardboard box out in the garage!     after painting I have a large box that I put the models in to cure

speaking of curing, while I was waiting for the Future to do so, I built this little fella as a stress release: a Heller 1/72 scale Mirage 2000N. I got it done in about 2 days. talk about a weekend build! it had some seam issues, but nothing really major. the cockpit was pretty bare, so i spruced things up by painting in details and adding seat belts from making tape (a first for me)

Enjoy!

OWL

Rob she's really looking good mate!!! Yeah, I like it the way it is too, maybe just the complementary streaks from the cowl and light exhaust staining should do the trick.

Owl, I see what you were taliking about your paint troubles. Practice makes perfect, well, better anyways!! That Mirage is a lil gem!!!! Very nice stress reliever!!