The group build to end all group builds - THE GREAT WAR

Marc - not sure what is meant by "gigantic listening device" but a couple brands not mentioned:

Royal Model

Model Victoria

regards,

Jack

So I went to the LHS today.

30% off sale on ALL Roden kits.

Suffice to say...I'm going to throw my "hat in the ring" with Roden's 1/32 Nieuport 28c1.

Interestingly enough, though French, the 28c1 was only flown in combat by American forces.

Think I'm probably going to start soon. Have to drill out the rigging holes (weak), but this one is way easier on the parts count than the WnW kits.

Doogs - nice snag there... Part (from Poland) has a detail set for that Roden kit.

jgeratic1

Doogs - nice snag there... Part (from Poland) has a detail set for that Roden kit.

I'm definitely considering it, but 1) it's pricey and 2) I can't seem to find a US source for it anywhere. But man, I'm LOVING the brass + acetate windscreen and the bracing wires in the cockpit.

DoogsATX

TD - Very nice! I tore through all the books of the Destroyermen series recently (WWII sailors on a WWI-era four-stacker destroyer get transported to an alternate earth where dinosaurs never went extinct and intelligent life evolved far differently...), and it's definitely piqued my interest in WWI floaty things. May have to branch into ships at some point...

I, too, thought the portholes were drilled out. Excellent job on those!

Alright gents - rigging conundrum!

So...most modern pictures of the Nieuport 28 show double flying wires, a la the Pup:

BUT...if you look at the actual aircraft flown by the 94th Aero Squadron during the war...

It's obvious that, not only is it NOT a double wire, it's flat. Like a really big version of the Brits' flat aero wires.

So the question becomes...how to rig this!?!?

At first I was thinking like a really thin rubber band or something. Or flat nylon thread, perhaps? But then how to attach it and make sure it's taut?

Doog,

Let me check a Listserv list on WWI models: vets all. I've got a Nuke too and would like to know.

Eric

I believe those wires were actually oblong and known as 'flying wires'.  I saw this place in Europe selling them in PE form

http://www.radubstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_68&products_id=321&zenid=f022504d5f5346d6b319941020768120

 After my Fokker, I realize I don't like the 'cut to exact length' method that these will require. But you you may find them useful.  I also have EZ line that I've been meaning to try out. It's a elastic line that really stretches, unstretched its flat in profile. If you pull it really taught, it becomes very thin, but I imagine you can pull it tight let still maintain a flat profile. The nice thing about it is that it gives so it minimizes damage after its been mounted. Like I said, I have some, but didnt' have a chance to use it yet.

http://www.bobeshobbyhouse.com/ezl.html

Here's another review

http://misc.kitreview.com/tools/ezlinereviewbg_1.htm

If you look at the last close up photo there seems to be a clue there.  Here is a blow up of it:

I believe there are the 2 wires as shown.

Do you have a link to the Polish company that made those PE for the Roden kit?

waikong - I think they're the same concept as the aeronautical flying wires used by the Pup and many other British aircraft. Think this is a bigger implementation, as the Pup still used double wires coming from the upper wing struts.

I eyed that set (RB Model makes them, no?) when I was prepping for the Pup, but cut-to-length on something like that gives me the willies!

As for EZ Line, I've got some. Didn't know it sat flat, but then I haven't taken it out of the little bag it came in, either.

Heavens Eagle - I think there may be a double turnbuckle (or some kind of wider, flatter thing) going on, but I can't find a single angle of an actual WWI N.28 showing those upper strut-to-fuse wires as doubles. 

This one's like the one above, only at greater resolution.

Here's the prototype (if you look closely you can make out the Eiffel Tower above the cowl). 

A Swiss example. Looks like the forward wire is actually a bit slack in this one.

This one would make a great diorama:

Post-war courier service, but same idea:

Far bottom left. There's clearly only the one eyebolt and what looks like one turnbuckle. 

This is apparently from the national museum of the USAF, and confuses the heck out of me. I need to do more research into this particular aircraft and whether it's a replica or not.

Well good news for those interested in the Nieuport 28 PE set from

JADARHOBBY  has it for $23.39 USD and they do accept paypal.  I have ordered from them many times, so yes they are legit.  It is a bit better price than the $31.00 Rollmodels is asking for.

regards,

Jack

Jack, this "gigantic listening device"

I want to reproduce this photo.  The guy with the shovel is perfect.  Thanks.

I love those acoustic warning systems ... very 'steam punk'... here's some more . Check out this link if you want even more examples, I didnt' know they had them up to the 1960's http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/ear/ear.htm

great sit Waikong.  There is one that looks very much like the pic I found.  This would make a very cool series of mini dios.

jgeratic1

Well good news for those interested in the Nieuport 28 PE set from

JADARHOBBY  has it for $23.39 USD and they do accept paypal.  I have ordered from them many times, so yes they are legit.  It is a bit better price than the $31.00 Rollmodels is asking for.

regards,

Jack

1 - Curse you

2 - I don't know Polish and Google doesn't translate buttons. Is there an English version available anywhere? Hard to buy it if I can't figure out how to add it to the cart...

Regarding the JADARHOBBY webpage, near the top right you will see a small Polish and British flag, click the unionjack and it will switch the language to english.  Just a bit below that there is a heading  Waluty - here you can click to change the currency.

regards,

Jack

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One more thing. The USAF is a replica found at Wright Patterson. Below is description from http://www.wwi-models.org/ which has a photo archive.

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This is a mid-1990s reproduction of very high quality. Note copper (?!) turnbuckles and copious use of black/white/gold Nieuport logo. Flying wires are doubled, and these taped together. The wooden struts have black enamel end caps that are fitted into natural steel-colored flanges and are reinforced with tan tapes lighter than the wood. The air induction tube is aluminum. Venture ASI is black enamel, with visible copper tubes therein. There is a brass cap on the propeller thrust plate, as well as on the wheel hubs. The cabane struts have a black base. Note cowl ring rivets. Also note leather patches reinforcing critical wing fabric points.

Lance Krieg

________________

Eric

Superb Marc, simply superb.

Nate

EBergerud

It's double rigging wires. What you see in the 94th squadron pic is a 

fairing taped between the wires to prevent them to vibrate too much 

during flight, which streamlines them and preserves the correct 

rigging of the wings. 

 

Eric! You, good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!

The fairing actually makes a ton of sense. I can imagine the wind kicking through double wires must have been extremely annoying.

I've got an idea of how to rig this in a way that might just preserve my sanity. Shape the fairing out of metal. Two pieces of micro tubing with some brass strip between them. Glue together. Fill with putty, sand into aerodynamic goodness. Insert rigging line into ends of the tubes (which would extend past the strip by a few mm in each direction), and connect said rigging via turnbuckles to mounting point on the fuselage.

I think that just might work...

EBergerud

History trivia: The Kaiser had a big mouth and there wasn't a soul in the German government that thought Germany would dominate China for 1,000 years. The huns were real enough though. They were a probably a group of warrior nomadic tribes unified by a string of charismatic leaders the most famous of which was Attila. They terrorized Europe and the western steppe for about a century: about 450 AD give or take their empire was huge. After Attila died they simply disapered: no doubt terrorized each other. We're not even sure what language they spoke: early Turkic is a good guess. Their reputation of pointless cruelty made them a fodder for legend among Germans, although the Huns killed more Germans than other peoples probably. Hence the idiotic remark by the Kaiser which made good fodder for British propaganda during WWI. Very odd guy, the Kaiser, wanting to identify his soldiers with probably the most nihilistic group of barbarians in history. Brit soldiers called the Huns "Jerry" or "Fritz" and only rarely "the Hun" - reason not clear. Maybe they weren't good at Turkic.    

Eric

Between August and the end of December 1914 the Home Fleet traveled over 15,000 nm evading German mines and submarines. I would say that the Iron Duke would have been weathered and covered in coal dust by the end of that period.

Doog: always true to the craft. I would have noted that "most but not all" of the Nieuports were rigged with taped double wires and rigged mine as one of the "not all" in the Pup fashion.

Bondoman: Probably did the RN good. Both navies were building up their complement for wartime operations and that meant a lot of new sailors and hence the need for serious training. Actually the two fleets did keep pretty active  (Germans usually in Baltic of course) - you don't want lots of sailors sitting around port, especially if you want the ships to perform at the level they were supposed to. (The Germans found out the hard way that idle sailors are bad sailors in October 1918 - the German economy was in serious trouble by 1918 and the KM was put on stiff rations of everything and had less time at sea.)  No simulators around to train the gunners in those days. So weathering a Dreadnaught is a fine idea - although I'd leave off the coal dust or Jackie Fischer would turn in his grave.

Dreadnaught Indound: Dragon USA is taking orders on a Zvezda 350 scale HMS Dreadnaught: delivery August 2011. We can hope. Wish it was a Battle Cruiser or a Duke to match up with their Konig, but I'll take what they give us.

Eric

HMS Dreadnought would be nice to see.

BTW EBergerud,if not for your Duke,I wouldn't have built mine.Now I'm hooked good!

I had to raid the stash to get the Duke some back up.

TD4438

 

DoogsATX:

 

TD - Very nice! I tore through all the books of the Destroyermen series recently (WWII sailors on a WWI-era four-stacker destroyer get transported to an alternate earth where dinosaurs never went extinct and intelligent life evolved far differently...), and it's definitely piqued my interest in WWI floaty things. May have to branch into ships at some point...

I, too, thought the portholes were drilled out. Excellent job on those!

 

I am an avid reader and will be on the lookout for these.

 

Followed by joining an Avalon Hill game club that plays "Jutland". I did for a year and it taught me a lot.

TD4438

HMS Dreadnought would be nice to see.

 

EBergerud

 - although I'd leave off the coal dust or Jackie Fischer would turn in his grave.

Invincible Class would be a great addition.

I love these ships you guys are buidling. I always found the ships from late 1800's to around 1915 very interesting.

Avalon Hill!  Wow, that bought back memories. Many happy hours spent moving those little cardboard pieces around hexagons.

When you guys mentioned the Lion, Invincible and Dreadnaught, are these kits you want to build or wish they were made in plastic styrene?  They are available in resin form.  More pricey, but have better detail and photo-etch frets are included.

Massie's Castles of Steel is very good. It's really the third book in a trilogy that includes "Nicholas and Alexandra" and "Dreadnaught." Massie is a writer, not an academic, but does good history regardless that people can read with pleasure: think Barbara Tuchman. Doog: if the world of the four stacker appears odd, track down one of the WWII submarine memoirs that recounts duty on an S-Class submarine built either during or immediately after WWI (nicknamed Pig Boats without affection.) Six of ten were lost in the Pacific before being withdrawn from service in late 42. Pig Boats did, however, use old torpedoes that worked - a problem that the USN was slow to deal with in the Gato class subs and all of their destroyers. This allowed S-44 to sink the IJN heavy cruiser Kako - Japan's only loss at the Savo Island debacle.

In the world of plastic ship modeling there seems to be a few things required to make the grade: 1) the ship should be big; 2) the ship should get sunk. Historical importance of the individual vessel doesn't seem to make much difference. There are, for instance, no versions of Enterprise (CV-6) available although it was easily the single most successful warship in history. (I got an old Tamiya 1/700 and consider myself lucky.)  All ships in harms way deserve respect. But I wish a special edge was given to vessels that were in the middle of those vicious surface brawls of 1942-43 when the USN and the IJN were still more or less on even terms and ships in very short supply. The (unmodeled) USS Helena was in every great battle in the South Pacific until destroyed at Kula Gulf - so getting sunk is no guarantee. The DDs are a little better off, but real warhorses like Sterett, O'Bannon, Maury and Charles Ausburne take some looking. At least Fletcher is there and could stand in I think for O'Bannon and Ausburne.  Anyway, you end up with lots of Hoods, Bismarcks and Arizonas. At least there's a KGV, but only 700 scale Rodney. And Washington, which won arguably the only 1v1 BB action of WWII is likewise only out there in 700 while you have your good choice of Iowa class anti-aircraft battleships. (The Japanese will model anything - including Mutsu whose only claim to fame was that it blew up while at anchor - a bit like the Maine.)

But having no WWI dreadnaughts available is a blinking scandal. These ships made history and were involved in the largest surface engagement in world history. (The British lost more men at Jutland in one day than the USN lost during the entire Guadalcanal campaign.)  And they have such an elegant look to them, especially the Battlecruisers. The Russo-Japanese War is very well represented thanks to Zvezda and Hasegawa's delightful Mikasa. I read on Modelship that Airfix did badly with Iron Duke and this didn't encourage anyone to to pursue the matter outside the world of resin. Below is a no doubt quickie construction of the incoming Zevezda Dreadnaught (considered out of date by 1914 and hence not a member of Grand Fleet):

Eric