US CARRIER AVIATION GROUP BUILD 2013

Greetings, Clemens.  I just took a look at the front page, and I don't mean to be overly picky and fussy, but the scale is much worse than 1/350.    I haven't even built a ship that big.  It's 1/700.    

My eyeballs can feel the difference! 

Thanks.

And thanks again for the positive feedback, Greg, Clemens and Tony.    I'm liking naval carrier aviation more and more all the time.

Given the comments on Eduard masks I've decided to look into these for my TBD, as their is a fair amount of canopy to do.  One advantage to having done armour kits is not having to deal with windows!

I have started on the cockpit and will try to figure out how to post pics here sometime next week.

P.S.  A little belated, but the Lexington looks very sharp Checkmate.  I cannot imagine the patience needed to build 1/700 scale aircraft and actually put markings on them.

Checkmate: Sorry man, I have no clue what I was thinking when posting 1/350 instead of 1/700. I changed it immediatly when I read your comment...

Rob: Looking forward to some pics!

Also looking fwd to some pics, Rob.

If you decide to give Eduard mask kit a go, also be interested to follow along with your progress. Found mine quite intimidating at first, seemed to go better over time.

Clemens, got to thinking about your super-clean mask job ( your pic pg 50), curious, do you do the Future pre-spray thing after masking to do the seal the edge thing? I tried it both ways, with mixed thoughts.

Nope, I just slapped the masks on and started spraying some paint on.

I wasn't too worried about sealing the masks as I was spraying with very low pressure (under 1 Bar/14 psi).

I seal the masks with an extremely thin coat of Alclad gloss coat, but I do that only when I display the canopy closed and use it for a cockpit mask. In this case I glue the canopy in place, mask it and then apply a clear coat to seal the mask AND possible gaps between the canopy and the fuselage, so I have no overspray on the inside...

Checkmate02- that Lexington and her squadron are simply awesome.   I think that you have done their service proud.

Greg- what kind of paint was pulling up from the masking?   I've had too many problems with MM acrylics doing that to me, so I went back to enamels cut with lacquer thinner for more 'bite' and haven't had any major issues like that since then.   I don't know of anything more frustrating than pulling up a mask and bringing the underlying paint with it.

Some guys are able to use post-it notes for their masking, but they just blow off the model whenever I've tried it because my AB requires a little too much air pressure to make that feasible.

As far as pulling up paint goes, I nevrer had any issues when using Tamiya and Gunze acrylics. Even withouot priming the model. I use Tamiya tape for masking.

I hope this is of any help...

Cheers, Clemens

Clemens- Thanks for explaining your procedure. Since I've never sprayed with a canopy attached (yet), would have never thought about the over-spray from imperfect canopy/fusalage seal. Great tip, thanks!

Curious, do you do the dip in Future thing with your canopies?

Dre, guess what? MM acrylic. Hmmm.

I must admit, I did a very poor job preparing the fuselage for primer. I had handled the fuselage for months, and all I did prior to the prime was wipe (not thoroughly) with a damp paper towel. Where the paint came up (primer and all, obviously) it is oily smooth so it makes me question my surface prep. Areas that were easy to wash before priming (wings, stabilizers, etc which I primed separately, I've had no problem with.

This is my first go-round with acrylics, and I really, really like working with them. Easy cleanup, easy airbrush cleanup, odorless and safety issues. That said, I have thoughts of trying some enamels next time, see how it goes.

Thank you very much for providing input to my situation, will be giving it some serious thought. Also, appreciate the thin with a bit of lacquer thinner for bite tip, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Yep, those Tamiya paints are close to indestructible once cured but they can lift off if the plastic isn't clean.   Mostly it will be tiny spots as opposed to great big sheets like MM acrylics.   I've never used Gunze paints.

That Tamiya tape is good, but I've had one bad experience where the tape's adhesive pretty much melted into the underlying paint.  I still have no idea what went wrong there as the paint was 2 weeks cured but I suspect that I left the tape on too long before returning to that model.

Dre: Gunze paints are even harder to get off the model once fully dry IMO, but you are not allowed to touch them untill then. Theis semi-gloss paints have a long drying time if you thin them a lot. I made that mistake on my Wildcat, resulting in those nasty fingerprints...

Greg: I don't use Future at all. We don't have that stuff in Austria as far as I know, and the stuff that comes closest to it is no good for models. It starts getting cracks all over the model after a longer period of time. That's why I use Alclad clear coat only. To answer your question: No, i haven't tried dipping clear parts in any kind of clear lacquer, but I will try with one of the many spare canopies you get with Eduard's Fw190s (you get 4 canopy hoods per kit and only need 1 of them...).

Cheers, Clemens

Another interesting thing about Gunze paints: The semi-gloss paints become dead-flat once you thin them with water, and they dry really quick as well.

Appreciating all comments about paint and masking.

Dre, you nailed it. My MM acryl lifted off in big sheets. I did the cowling ring with Tamiya, It's been masked for quite a while and way things are going, be a while longer. Be curious to see how it acts.

I've never seen Gunze anywhere except the web. Perhaps worth trying some time. Sounds good. I like the no priming part.

Clemens, thanks for responding to my inquiry about future and dipping etc. I wondered if that was the (additional) purpose of the clear coat.

Yep, no priming is a nice feature. I just use it on the inside of my aircraft models though, as I want the paint to have a good grip to the surface on the outside.

SchattenSpartan

Yep, no priming is a nice feature. I just use it on the inside of my aircraft models though, as I want the paint to have a good grip to the surface on the outside.

So are you saying you use enamels on exteriors? Odd, after yet another mishap (see below), this is the direction I was thinking. Acrylic inside and detail brushing, enamels outside. But I thought I'd order some Gunze first and test. So after I find out what you use on the outside, you might have just saved me a testing step.

Todays disappointment, just carefully unmasked the main canopy. 90% just fine, but 3 sections of almost completely pulled off paint separation strips. Repairing this might be over my pay grade on this build. What do you use to paint your post-masking canopies, Clemens and anyone else? Acryl or enamel for bite? (I did keep all the used masks, so I should be able to re-use the damaged section ones).

I am really surprised, I've done a ton of reading in the past 4-5 months, and have neither stumbled across info re MM acryl tending to pull off in sheets, or acrylic bite being all that bad in general.

Guy, not trying to monopolize the thread here. Feel kinda dumb at the moment. Everything is sort of falling apart at the end of the build, just want I didn't want. But.......... this is how we learn. (Keep telling myself that)

SchattenSpartan

Checkmate: Sorry man, I have no clue what I was thinking when posting 1/350 instead of 1/700. I changed it immediatly when I read your comment...

Rob: Looking forward to some pics!

Thanks, Clemens.  No problem.  No doubt the photo only makes them look that big.

Thanks, Rob.  When you are finished with your 1/48 Devastator, Trumpeter makes 1/700 Devastators, too! 

Thanks, Dre.  There is something outstanding about carrier flight crews, flying hundreds of miles over open water, carrying out a mission, and finding the way back home, with the equipment available during WWII.  

Greg

SchattenSpartan

Yep, no priming is a nice feature. I just use it on the inside of my aircraft models though, as I want the paint to have a good grip to the surface on the outside.

So are you saying you use enamels on exteriors? Odd, after yet another mishap (see below), this is the direction I was thinking. Acrylic inside and detail brushing, enamels outside. But I thought I'd order some Gunze first and test. So after I find out what you use on the outside, you might have just saved me a testing step.

Todays disappointment, just carefully unmasked the main canopy. 90% just fine, but 3 sections of almost completely pulled off paint separation strips. Repairing this might be over my pay grade on this build. What do you use to paint your post-masking canopies, Clemens and anyone else? Acryl or enamel for bite? (I did keep all the used masks, so I should be able to re-use the damaged section ones).

I am really surprised, I've done a ton of reading in the past 4-5 months, and have neither stumbled across info re MM acryl tending to pull off in sheets, or acrylic bite being all that bad in general.

Guy, not trying to monopolize the thread here. Feel kinda dumb at the moment. Everything is sort of falling apart at the end of the build, just want I didn't want. But.......... this is how we learn. (Keep telling myself that)

I use Gunze paints everywhere on my models. I was talking about the no-priming "feature". I never use primer on the cockpit, but I do so on the outer surfaces of the plane.

That problem you have with your masks sounds really bad. I can't really give you any advice here, as I don't use Model master acrylics. I can't even get them here in Austria...

I can give you some tips for the future (just some stuff I find useful):

• Wipe of your model with a cloth dampened with rubbing-alcohol before spraying any paint on it
• Use a primer (I prefer Alclad's primer because I can use it in my Airbrush, but any good primer will work)
• Sand the primer smooth if it is too rough (some primers tend to have a very coarse surface)
• Spray paint on (in thin layers)
• Wait untill it is completely dry
• Put masks on
• Spray next layer of paint
• Remove the mask IMMEDIATELY after the paint has almost dried
• Repeat the last 4 steps for every new color you apply

This is my way of working with Acrylics (and masking them). It works without any problems (except that mishap with my Wildcat), but as I said, I use Gunze (and sometimes Tamiya Acrylics) only.

I think your best bet for fixing the color on the Canopy is to just respray it. If the damage only applies to the canopy hood and not the windscreen, it should be quite easy for you to mask off the individual panels by using some Tamiya tape cut to shape (just some rectangles). I recommend you get some of tha stufff, as it doesn't stick taht well to the surface and is less likely to pull off the paint under it. If you want to remove the paint before doing that, simply soak the part in rubbing alcohol or, even better, Revell's "Aqua Color Clean" (it is able to remove Gunze and Tamiya paints without any problems, so it should work with MM Acrylics as well). It is important that the parts you are stripping with that stuff were NOT primed. It won't work (or only limited) otherwise. The good thhing about it is that it doesn't fog clear parts at all... I saved my Wildcat's landing gear this way.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

I hope I could help you out a little bit at least....

Cheers, Clemens

Greg: GBs are about having fun, building some stuff "together" and also helping each other to make everyone's build as much fun as possible! So feel free to ask any question, no matter how stupid it might sound to you, and I will do my best to answer it. I think a lot of the guys here will agree with me and I'm sure we can and WILL help you out!

Just keep in mind that I am relatively new to the hobby, so I have not as much knowledge as some other guys do...

Just don't give up on the Avenger! I love all the work you put in it and it really pays off! I am sure you can build a beautiful model out of that kit! Remember: This hobby is about having fun. If you get frustrated with a kit, leave it alone for a few days and come back to it again after you gained some new energy!

If you want to keep building on something in the meantime, just build a second kit at the same time. Just pic a Tamiya kit to go along a challenging build. Those kits are a dream to build and look really great. Try keeping the subjects of the two kits somewhat different, so that one of them doesn't remind you of the frustration you had with the other.

I am building one of Eduards Fw190s at the moment, but I had my Wildcat on the bench at the same time. Those Eduard kits are a real challenge for me (a lot of fit issues), but I only do a little work on it at once, and the switch back to the Tamiya kit for the rest of the day...

Cheers, Clemens

Sorry for the huge amounts of text. I didn't realie I wrote that much. I guess you get the point...

checkmateking02

Thanks, Dre.  There is something outstanding about carrier flight crews, flying hundreds of miles over open water, carrying out a mission, and finding the way back home, with the equipment available during WWII.  

I agree. As an out of service civilian pilot, the mere thought has always given me goosebumps.

Outstanding tips and advice, Clemens. Thank you!

Ok, I am going to order some Gunze for sure now. You were correct, I did miss the part that you only 'primed' the exterior surfaces. I have used MM gray primer, for all the good it did.

D'OH! re the rubbing alcohol wipe!!! I got so hung up with my soap and water routine, and could come up with no way to do it on the joined fuselage, that I did a wipe with water and drop of detergent and called it good. Never gave an alcohol rub a thought. Again, "D'OH".

Priceless advice, thank you very much and please be as wordy as you want. I've always been a believer that no meaningful information can be exchanged using this medium with one sentence replies.

I am proceeding on all fronts as you suggest, short of starting another one right now, but still, that's good advice for the future. And thanks for the encouragement, and again, apologies for my whining.

Thought it appropriate to post a shot showing my version of "large sections of paint pulling off". :)

This occurred after masking for the top navy blue. Hey, I messed up the mask from the turret forward on both sides anyway, so what's a little more challenge, right? :)

Might frame this one. "My first masking job".

Thought I might mention that to repair this, I need to mask it. A bit of a Catch-22. I shall be doing some very serious de-tacking of all tape used, that's for sure.

One other note, a great part of the damage was due to my use of blue painters tape (only had thin tamiya on hand). Oops, bet I won't do that again. :)

Greg, there is a technique for the next time you find yourself with broad areas to mask, and only have a little of the narrow tape on hand.

mask your separation between colors area with the thin Tamiya tape, then mask off strips of the area you want protected from the spray,,,,,,,,then cut out cardstock masks to go between those lines of tape, overlapping slightly,,,tape the card masks only to the Tamiya tape with your wider/cheaper tape,,,,,repeat to cover your area, never letting cheap tape touch your painted surface, always trimming your cardstock to leave a thin "over taping" area to lay your Blue tape onto your Yellow tape

I once had to do it this way for a long time, because of finances, I just didn't have the luxury of spreading Yellow Tamiya tape over the whole area I wanted masked off,,,,,,,,I still do it whenever I have a large area to cover, just because it goes on and comes off so much faster

The reason for doing it in strips is that I never liked working with a large piece of cardstock that tried to do the whole area at once,,,,it was hard to "trim everywhere perfectly" that way

Greg, that photo of the paint peel brings a tear to my eye after all the work you've put into this kit... sorry, man.  

Clemens gave a good run down on procedures, all I'll add is "SimpleGreen".   That stuff will cleanly remove most acrylics in a very short time.   It is best used as a last resort, when soaking the painted work is the only option.  I don't think that it will help in this instance, though.  

It looks like you'll have to lightly sand those areas before respraying to avoid having peel edges showing up- I didn't and it was obvious where the peeling had occurred under the respray.

That peeling is fixable, it just depends on how much effort you want to expend doing it..   I know that I would be highly tempted to do a quick sand-and-respray of those areas and then paint the entire thing in dark sea blue!  

And don't worry about long posts full of questions because there's always someone who has dealt with the problems at one time or another and is eager to share the knowledge learned, even if it is a cautionary tale.

ohhh, another thought

keep that photo for all the guys that say "I have never washed a model and have never primed one, and I have never had a problem since I built my first kit back when Penquin released their first plastic model, so paint will NEVER lift off of your model, it just never happens", lol

the photo is living proof that sooner or later,,,,,luck can run out on anyone in this hobby,,,,,,,,we usually just don't post our mistakes,,,,,you should know that I had to build 17 Skyhawks to get my first 12 finished,,,,,,and no, I don't have pics of the 5 that didn't get decals, lol

REx

True words, Tarn.

(although I readily admit to both never washing the sprues or priming beyond a preshade)

That is a sobering picture, Greg.  If it's any consolation, I only use enamels, thinned with lacquer thinner and, earlier, Dio-Sol--a very "hot" product from Floquil (and no longer available, probably because it was too "hot").  This stuff is supposed to give some "bite" to the paint/plastic interface. . .

And I have still had some paint lifting, even after washing the plastic.

Paint lifting might be a corollary to Murphy's Law.

I used kitchen aluminium foil a lot for masking. It's very flexible and will follow curves. It's good for the in between bits between your masking tape, and is a good deal cheaper. I haven't had paint lift for a while, but I'm sure to on my next model now.

Cheers

Tony

I never wash my sprue but I always prime using Tamiya primers. Knock on wood I haven't had the paint lift yet. I'm sure it will happen after I do an extreme camo job.

Murphy's Law says always happens at the most inoportune times.