Looks great Terry! Lots of detail in there

Thanks all, its going together nicely so far. Very impressed with Dragon Smart Kits.

Bish I couldn't imagine how it sounded inside those turrets.

Jibber: your SturmPanzer's looking good.

jibber

Bish I couldn't imagine how it sounded inside those turrets.

I dread to think. It was bad enough inside the warrior turret when firing the 30mm rarden. The Sturmm must have been deafening.

Guys I'm searching through all my references for camo patterns used on Brummbars near the end of the war. I can't find a definitive source and I'm nearing the point that I have to make a decision. I'm leaning towards something along the lines of the  box art, but I've also seen 3 color camo but only with zimmerit and I've built this one without it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Terry

jibber - if Wiki can be trusted, I'd say since your kit is a mid-production, it should have zimmerit.  Odd though that photos also exist of late series having zimmerit, even though that practice had ended at the factory by the time these started production.

Have you tried image searching Sturmpanzerabteilung 217 , this was the Brummbar unit in France.  Unit 216 was in Italy, but not sure if that front is still considered as part of the west with regards to this GB.

regards,

Jack

I agree with jack on the Zimmerite for the Mid Production vehicles.

Jack, I have not been able to find any info on when the ball MG was fitted, and I believe this defines the Late Production. But there do seem to be some in Late 44 which may well have been built before Sept, that's my guess anyway.

thx Bish

June '44 is given as the start date for the late  series   - so yes, that explains the presence of zimmerit.  The ball mounted mg also associated with the above date.  I've read though that this was also fitted to already extisting brummbars.  So have to look at other characteristics to determine the late type.

regards,

Jack  

Right, well that sound plausible, if the vehicle are having to go for a major service, fitting the ball MG would make sense. I am not sure about any other modifications made during production, I don't have much info on this vehicle and it doesn't seem to be one that's well covered.

Guys I've checked the 217th, and I found where some had zim and some without. I also found the Italian  deployed units and camo patterns what they used but that really doesn't fit the GB except for the few that were withdrawn to the homeland.

Does a Dark Yellow/Lt Green base color with Dark Green or Red/Brown striping work? I've seen this on a lot of vehicles in urban fighting but no dates?  

Terry, I am not going to be to uptight about it. With German armour it can be tricky as often there were no unit markings, and unless you can find a pic of the exact vehicle you are doing and put it in a certain place at a certain time, its impossible to 100% certain. And with vehicle like the Brummbar its even more tricky. As long as your happy that your scheme represents a vehicle that was used in the west, that's good enough for me.

I've re-read some reference material and not all mid production vehicles received zimmerit. A lot were deployed to Italy and France but near the end some were pulled back to the homeland, now which ones I haven't a clue. Theres a lot of street fighting pics of them but no dates or identifiers. This is the frustrating part. I believe Trojka's book shows this pattern I'm thinking about, it's a yellow/green base with dark green striping. I know this was a common pattern in Italy. I'm read at least a few were transported back to defend the homeland.

This isn't the first time I've tried to research this, theres a lot of "definite maybes" with these units and vehicles especially near the end.

If you prefer, I can zim this one up and go with a 3 color pattern.  

I will leave it entirely in your hands terry. I would not blame you for wanting to avoid the Zimm if possible, I know I would.

I will leave it entirely in your hands terry. I would not blame you for wanting to avoid the Zimm if possible, I know I would.

Terry, have you seen this pdf file on the 217 battalion:

http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/documents/SturmpanzerSpottersGuide_217.pdf

It states, and I've seen it elsewhere, that this unit lost all it's brummbars in Normandy (July-August).

Now combined with this production table,

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Rules/Sturmpanzer-IV-ProductionChart.pdf

it doesn't look possible that a mid-production was on western front post Normandy.  216 was the only other unit to receive the early and mid production types, but they remained in Italy.   The other two units, 218 and 219 were created August and September 1944 respectively, so they were composed of only the late version. 

Anyways, that's what I see, hope it helps.

regards,

Jack

Jack I've read where some were taken from Italy and moved north after losing so much equipment, this is what I can't find out. Which unit, what markings, what camo etc? I know the Italian Brummbars were mostly early and mid w/o zim. Do you have anything on it?

So after reading the material (and thanks I'm always amazed at what guys have) are you saying there were no Mid Brummbars in Germany from D Day to the end?

Terry, if I have read that right, the 217 had all versions of the Brummbar in Normandy. But after Normandy, there were no Mid Production versions in Western Europe. So your build would have to be a vehicle of the 217.

[/URL[URL=http://s1346.photobucket.com/user/kingtiger11/media/Brummbar/DSC00488_zpsd07bfd2a.jpg.html][/URL[URL=http://s1346.photobucket.com/user/kingtiger11/media/Brummbar/DSC00486_zpsb0debded.jpg.html]

I test fitted the gun, and added some PE to the rear hull. I've left off the rear cover to allow access to the muffler. Depending what we come up with, I may apply some Zimmerit made the old fashion way, Milliput.   

Bish which means this vehicle couldn't be included in Germanys defense during the posted times? UGH..

Yes it does. This GB is for anything from D-Day to VE Day, so it include anything during the Normandy campaign.

Ok Bish, just pull it from the list. Thanks

Terry, the brummbar is looking good.

I've no dedicated references at home on the subject, just learning along the way from what is found on the net.  I haven't come across any accounts of these vehicles working individually, they all belonged to one of the four battalions specially created for them.   If you have found otherwise, can you post a link?

There is mention of 216, when in Italy, it did form a 4th company, but this was later sent to Germany and formed the nuclei of 219.    No idea what this company was composed of, but even if it did have mid production vehicles, the area of operations of StuPz Abt 219 was eastern Europe.

regards,

Jack

Terry, it doesn't need to be. They were used in Normandy, so that's ok.

Ok, now that I'm thoroughly confused, let me try and sort it out. Mid Brummbars were assigned to the 217th in Normandy but none survived. SO, the one I'm building could be one of those assigned there and thus be included in the build. And having a mix of Mid Productions, almost any camo scene could be have been used?? If thats the case, then I'll not pursue any further info on the Italian vehicles.

Ye, that about sums it up.

O the joy's of German armour.

I'm wore out, I just wanted to get it right. I have a computer full of info and a ton of books, but it's so confusing thats why I look to guys like you a Jack for help. Much appreciated. I have an idea on how to finish it, and I want to get started on the other build with my Firefly before the Orphaned GB gets going. Thanks guys.

Glad you got that confusion sorted out, Your Brummbär is looking fantastic and it would've been really unfortunate to not have it in here anymore...

I have no idea about all that stuff but she looks great so far!

Thanks, I was sweating bullets but I'm glad it fits the scope.