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Monogram 1/35 M48 Patton

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:10 PM

Hans von Hammer

Ok.. So I'm golden with calling this thing an M48A2 (for the name-plate), yes?

That is what it is, that is what the box, both old and new, says it is, an M48A2. It's probably the oldest 1/35 scale armor model kit that is still well regarded. Most likely because it hasn't been superceded by a new tooled version. Many use the venerable Tamiya kit to dress it up with more refined detail parts, but the basic kit is a solid build.

Most kitbashes I've seen to upgrade this kit involve swapping the turret for the Tamiya kit, detailing the Monogram cupola with parts from the Tamiya kit, adding the suspension from the Tamiya kit, cleaning up the molded on tool details from a kit with a similar tool rack, etc. I've seen Eduard PE made for the Tamiya kit used to detail the headlight guards and fender supports, etc.

I've also seen this kit used with the Ironside M67 flame tank kit (basically an Academy copy of the Tamiya M48A3) to make that model more accurate since the flame tank was more commonly found on the A2's gas powered hull not the diesel engined A3. It gets reissued about every 10-15 years. I think 1996-97 was the last time I saw it reissued in the original blue long box.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:15 PM

Original long box art work, also used for the mid 90s reissue:

Box art from the 1980s reissue:

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:18 PM

I believe the gunner's sight on the roof of the turret is significantly different than the standard gunner's sight housing on a regular M48. The M67 really came in two version, an M67A1 based off the M48A2 and the M67A2 based off the M48A3. I do not know which one was more prevalent in use.

The gun tube is significantly different as well; shorter, fatter, with a phony muzzle brake to make it cosmetically look like a regular M48 gun tank.

Edit: Here is an excellent photo of an M67A2 (M48A3-based) Zippo. Notice the sight in front of the cupola, which is traversed over the right side of the turret. The sight is much different than the one on the Monogram or Tamiya kit.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:09 PM

Ok, thanks Rob...

Now one more question.. The cupola has a regular M2HB .50 cal or is it that cockamamee M85 .50 cal.?

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:28 AM

Rob knows it a lot better than me, but I heard that in the commanders cuppola was the regular M2 ma deuce. In Vietnam the boys often pulled it out and mounted it on a makeshift pedestal, sometimes made of steel plate and parts taken from the ACAVs, for more flexibility and field of fire. Hope it helps, good luck with your build and have anice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:19 AM

Hans von Hammer

Ok, thanks Rob...

Now one more question.. The cupola has a regular M2HB .50 cal or is it that cockamamee M85 .50 cal.?

It's an M2HB, but not a regular one. It is the same type that is used on the M1-series tanks and called the M48 turret type. It differs in that 1) it does not have a regular charging handle, it uses the M10 charging handle which is a fragile cable with a V-shaped metal grab handle at the back; 2) it does not have hand grips at the rear; 3) and since it it designed to be mounted to a cupola with a sighting system, it does not have any sights on the top of the machine gun receiver.

While the below picture is NOT a photo of an M48 cupola interior, it is a photo of the M48 turret type M2HB with M10 charging handle. This photo is of the machine gun in an ASV cupola, but that is the same version of M2 used in the M48 cupola (hence the name) and in the M1-Abrams series commander's weapon station. The M85 is an entirely different animal of which I have no love for. I hated that thing almost as much as I hated the old M219 coaxial machine gun.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:42 AM

Pawel

Rob knows it a lot better than me, but I heard that in the commanders cuppola was the regular M2 ma deuce. In Vietnam the boys often pulled it out and mounted it on a makeshift pedestal, sometimes made of steel plate and parts taken from the ACAVs, for more flexibility and field of fire. Hope it helps, good luck with your build and have anice day

Paweł

I'm not an expert on the M48 by any means; my time on them was limited to the M48A5 gun tank and the M48A5 AVLB and I can probably count the times I got to train on the AVLB on one hand.

It's not as simple as pulling the cupola M2 out and sticking it on a pintle. It'd be easier to "acquire" a regular M2 from a destroy M113 or wherever the gun trucks found theirs and go that route. If you ever had to pull a charging handle on an M2, it would be impossible to do so from inside a cramped cupola. There'd be no way to get any leverage to pull it. That's why the cable's there, you pull it straight down. There is no wooden charging handle on the right side.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, November 18, 2011 3:04 PM

Rob Gronovius

 Hans von Hammer:

Ok, thanks Rob...

Now one more question.. The cupola has a regular M2HB .50 cal or is it that cockamamee M85 .50 cal.?

 

It's an M2HB, but not a regular one. It is the same type that is used on the M1-series tanks and called the M48 turret type. It differs in that 1) it does not have a regular charging handle, it uses the M10 charging handle which is a fragile cable with a V-shaped metal grab handle at the back; 2) it does not have hand grips at the rear; 3) and since it it designed to be mounted to a cupola with a sighting system, it does not have any sights on the top of the machine gun receiver.

While the below picture is NOT a photo of an M48 cupola interior, it is a photo of the M48 turret type M2HB with M10 charging handle. This photo is of the machine gun in an ASV cupola, but that is the same version of M2 used in the M48 cupola (hence the name) and in the M1-Abrams series commander's weapon station. The M85 is an entirely different animal of which I have no love for. I hated that thing almost as much as I hated the old M219 coaxial machine gun.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6215/6350473300_c12bff0fab_b.jpg

Ya got me confuse-ed...

Ain't the above an M1's TC cupola? I see the spade-grips and a charging handle..

This site's calling it "Machine Gun, Cal .50, Browning, M2, Heavy Barrel, M48 Turret Type"... (Even has the damn national stock number)...

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/M2.html

Or did you mean that there's just no grips or "regular" charging-handle on the just M48's Mother Duece? (BTW, is/was the coax an M1919-type .30cal?)

Also, is the pic you posted showing the sight extension for the .50 and would that be similar to the M48 TC's sight-extension? And did the M48 use a similar set-up like that hose for catching the brass/links as the ASV does, or did they hang a bag of some sort, or just let the junk hit the turret basket floor?

Sorry to be a walkin' question-mark, Rob, but this build is kinda like "Topsy" and "Just sorta growed"...  I'm filling the turret with all kinds of greeblies; in the hull, I even scratch-built the gas-pedal, complete with holes..

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Friday, November 18, 2011 5:56 PM

Rob - I'm glad I wrote something, by correcting me you taught me some really interesting details. Thanks a lot!

Hans - good luck keeping the model detailed! I like your attitude on this one, so have fun!

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, November 18, 2011 6:15 PM

Hans, that's an M1A2 improved commander's weapon station. Because of the CIT-V screen and assorted electronics, the M1/M1A1 commander's weapon station (CWS) with its power traverse was deleted and an "improved" weapons station (aka cupola) was added to the M1A2. That improved commander's weapon station can take either type of M2HB.

Notice how the commander is grabbing handgrips, almost like a bicycle's handlebars, rather than the .50's traditional wooden handles and butterflies.

The M1/M1A1 commander's weapon station had several issues that often put it out of action, either item would make the weapon inoperable which in turn would deadline the tank (yes, the commander's .50 would deadline a tank!).

The first issue was with the M10 charging handle. That fragile cable would fray right at the point where the cable came out and rubbed on a metal pully. Guaranteed to occur when you really needed the machine gun operable, like during gunnery.

The second issue was the brass gear that raised and lowered the machine gun's elevation. This problem only occurred when the blank firing adapter was attached during training like NTC or other maneuvers. The excess weight of the BFA on the end of the barrel would cause the weapon to "see saw" as the tank travelled cross country eventually wearing the brass elevation gear.

While the powered traverse was nice, it was hardly used and moved the cupola in a rather jerky motion. I was glad that the A2 changed that .50 mount. Probably the overall cost kept the Army from retrofitting all Abrams tanks to the ICWS. Just imaging replacing every single commander's cupola on every tank!

As far as the coax on the older tanks, when I was on the CEV and the M48A5, our coax was a 7.62mm M219 machine gun. I did a quick google search and found that it came into use in 1959. When I was on the M60A3TTS and M1-series tanks, our coax was the M240 7.62mm machine gun.

I do not know what an early M48/A1/A2/A3 or even earlier M60 or M60A1s used.

As to how the M48's spent brass dropped, I'm not sure. On the M48A5 I was on, we used externally mounted M60Ds with butterflies and an anti aircraft sight. On the CEV and M60A3TTS (and would be the same on the M60 or M60A1) I was on, the spent brass and links dropped out an opening on the underside of the cupola's mantlet. The casings and links just scattered around the top of the turret and spilled over the side of the tank.

I bet the environmentally aware, recycling folks probably thought it would be better to collect the brass on that ASV. Them dang links were always getting stuck in the grills and falling into impossible to reach spots. I bet my old A3 probably had brass links older than me stuck in various spots.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, November 18, 2011 6:37 PM

Edit: Did some quick homework and found out what happened to the M48 .50 cal brass. It went out a chute and dropped out of the cupola. This photo shows the spot, right above the hanging smoke grenades from the bottom of the semi-circular plate with the four bolt indentations, just forward of the first vision block (not the riser's vision blocks). Of note is the ground mount tripod that looks like it was cut and probably welded to the top of the cupola mantlet.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, November 18, 2011 9:30 PM

Ahh.. I see it...

As for the fifty being moved to a field-expedient mount outside the cupola, I believe I saw that same modification on Israeli M-48s as well, along with the fifty-cal "range-finder" they used...

I may go that route instead of mounting it in the cupola since I can't find any really good pics of it being installed that way on M48s in combat zones...  Seems TCs in Vietnam generally preferred to risk snipers in order to see better and be able to engage targets easier with Mother Deuce out there...  I don't have a spare cupola riser though...

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, November 18, 2011 11:40 PM

I think the riser was an A3 thing, but I may have one from a Tamiya kit I converted into a true A5.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:26 AM

Then I'm ok without the riser since I'm doing an Alpha-2, check?

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:58 PM

Correct, the A3 came standard with the cupola riser and the A2 did not. But the cupola riser could be retrofitted to the A2 so that is not a good vehicle identifier. Usually, an A2 would not have it, but it could have it.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Saturday, November 19, 2011 1:21 PM

Ok.. Thanks.. Gonna KISS this one and go without the riser, since I want to use the Tamiya Riser on their A-3...

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:09 PM

I've got the pieces if you' like them, let me know. They're out of the Tamiya kit, or the Acad knock-off.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:28 AM

RBaer

I've got the pieces if you' like them, let me know. They're out of the Tamiya kit, or the Acad knock-off.

Woah.. That's a save.. Contact me back-channel about them...

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:58 AM

Some progress has been made on the driver's compartment..

 The seat is from a Marder kit, the rest is just scraps and stuff from the parts-box... I'll post more later, but my camera-batteries went Tango Uniform and I got it a bit more "crowded" in there now...

It's a "Monday Kit"...

Grrrrr... Effin' short-shot...

  • Member since
    April 2009
  • From: Carmel, IN
Posted by deafpanzer on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:11 PM

Looking great Hans!  I built the same kit when I was 15 years old or so AND I still have it sitting on my shelves.  There is something special about it because nothing is broken like all other built models as they didn't survive years of moves and storage.  I will post a picture when I have the chance...

I will be following your work because it will help me feel YOUNG! Thanks buddy!

Andy

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:51 PM

They'll probably replace that part with a quick phone call or email.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:38 PM

Not worth the wait, Rob.. It's an easy fix with a little sheet styrene and putty...

Thanks DP...  I too built it at about that age, it was my very first armor kit as well, and the first introduction I had to Shep Paine's work, as the diorama tip sheet was included back then... Which is also when the diorama bug bit me, and I've been building them ever since...

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:40 AM

Hans von Hammer

Not worth the wait, Rob.. It's an easy fix with a little sheet styrene and putty...

A modeler's version of those Viagra commercials; like the one where the truck gets stuck in the mud and the rancher gets his horses from the trailer to pull them out.

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
Posted by Hercmech on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:55 AM

This is a cool thread...not only for the build but for all the info that is presented.


13151015

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:20 AM

Rob Gronovius

 Hans von Hammer:

Not worth the wait, Rob.. It's an easy fix with a little sheet styrene and putty...

 

A modeler's version of those Viagra commercials; like the one where the truck gets stuck in the mud and the rancher gets his horses from the trailer to pull them out.

lol... Damn, now I got that stupid blues tune they play on that commercial stuck in m' head...

cb1
  • Member since
    December 2009
  • From: D/FW Texas
Posted by cb1 on Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:41 PM

Im enjoying this tread! so far so good!

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, December 4, 2011 12:05 PM

Finally got batteries for camera.. Pics will be coming late tonight...

TTFN..

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:22 PM

More progress on the Patton..

First, fixed that turret short-shot:

Driver's compartment:

Drilled out the cupola armor-glass:

Added a .50 cal from the AFV Quad Fifty:

 

 I'm actually farther along than the pics show.. The hull and upper deck are assembled, the suspension is on, and I'm about to add the tracks... Then it's time to finish up the 90mm and turret details..

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, December 15, 2011 12:42 AM

Whew... First coat of OD has been shot...

Camera's acting up again though... However, before I painted it, I roughed up the surface of the hull and the turret with a short, stiff paint-brush and liquid cement... This was to give the hull and turret a rough, cast texture...

I painted it with Hunter's Specialties Olive Drab "Permanent Camo" enamel from a rattle can... I just have to get out of the War Room for some air now...

Don't worrrrryy anbout th fumeesss, I've finne and eberthig is norbal...

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:31 AM

Oh yeah, without the fumes this hobby would only be half the fun, wouldn't it?

Very nice progress here, I have a question, though - aren't you going to cut out the bottom of the turret? Good luck with the build (and with the fumes Big Smile ), have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

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