Rare color pic of German Dark Yellow...

Satori wrote:

Similar looking lump of mud by the road side: Red flowers were clearly visible behind the burning Tiger hull. We might need a botanist to id the vegetation.

Sorry... inconclusive at best, IMHO.

Doh! The schurzen are plain as day! I was so intent onlooking at the background and trying to tie it in with the Tiger and Mk III that I did not even bother to really examine the tanks... The lead Mk IV also looks to have some rough zimmerit too...

edit- I will still wager the original first three pics posted, the 501st Mk III w/burning overturned Tiger and the two of the Mk IV "8" are from Tunisia.... the later picks of the Mk IVs w/schruzen and three color schemes, Italy perhaps? 

wbill76 wrote:

Satori wrote: The piece of armor folded upward on top of the turret looked alike don't they? Cupola on one was knocked out of place, and missing on the other. Look closely at the front view vehicle, it has turret schurzen fitted. The rear view vehicle does not. You can see what you want to see I suppose regarding the armor folded upward on top of the turret, one looks like a schurzen plate while the other is tough to say exactly what it is...that's the trouble with knocked out vehicles, they have a tendency to lose their integrity at various places. These two photos, aside from being knocked out Pz IVs, have nothing in common with each other...

I concur.

Satori wrote:

The piece of armor folded upward on top of the turret looked alike don't they? Cupola on one was knocked out of place, and missing on the other.

Look closely at the front view vehicle, it has turret schurzen fitted. The rear view vehicle does not. You can see what you want to see I suppose regarding the armor folded upward on top of the turret, one looks like a schurzen plate while the other is tough to say exactly what it is...that's the trouble with knocked out vehicles, they have a tendency to lose their integrity at various places. These two photos, aside from being knocked out Pz IVs, have nothing in common with each other...

TD4438 wrote:

Damn good discussion.I noticed the tracks on these tanks are rusty.How long would it take them to look that way in Tunisia or Italy?

In damp conditions, surface rust will form quickly once the vehicle stops moving, sometimes overnight (seen that myself and was quite suprised). And as WBill said, if set afire,a soon as the metal cools, it begins to oxidize. In dry conditions, it will also rust/oxidize quickly, once there is no longer movement to scrape it off.

Satori wrote:

same tank?

No. The rearward shot clearly shows black three digit vehicle numbers. The two vehicles in front of the forward shot all have white three digit vehicle numbers. The topography also doesn't make sense for these to be the same vehicle. Also, the shot of the rear shows the commander's cupola gone from the black digit vehicle but it's there in the front view vehicle. Two totally different knocked out vehicles.

same tank?

Similar looking lump of mud by the road side:

Red flowers were clearly visible behind the burning Tiger hull. We might need a botanist to id the vegetation.

And early H production started in June...so some of those phots may be from Sicily, but the III-N is most definitely from Tunisia. The 501st surrendered in Tunisia and was not reconstituted, so the marking on the III-N is definitive IMHO.

The Life color photos span a great length of time and are indeed an excellent resource. The pic of the Pz IV from the rear up above for example clearly shows two-tone "Tropen" scheme on the turret bin and rear hull.

These two appear to be from a different location altogether (note the presence of flowers, different landscape background, taller grass, etc.) vs. the one above although it's tough to say for sure. The two below would be good indications of DY with the color filtering/shift taken into consideration.  The first one also gives a good hint of what Olivegrun looked like too.

IIRC the two photos above were taken in either Sicily or Italy and are not related to Tunisia.

The Japanese publication Achtung Panzer Vol.3 dates the introduction of single piece commander's coupla hatch to May, 1943.

I think the only real point to pin down would be the time frame. I would venture late April or early May at the end of the campaign the Germans were still attempting to land re-inforcemtns in Africa at least through Easter, but less and less was getting thru. 501st heavy Tank Btn was pretty much destroyed in North Africa, reconstituted in Germany , then deployed to the Eastern Front. The Mk IVs are certainly newer production vehicles and quite possibly had successfully run the delivery gauntlet and arrived in Africa in time for the end of the campaign.

But itsn't it great we have internet access now to such great pictures? All arguments aside, this is great reference material.

Hi.

I didn't rule out Tunisia, but I think it's unlikely tanks produced in March or April would of reached Africa in time.

These photos were all taken around the same time at the same location. 

Below: a G.I blew that Tiger upside down. You can see the red flowers across the road on second photo of the burning Tiger, and the pz.III on the third.

stikpusher wrote:

Just curious Satori but what makes you rule out Tunisia for the photos? I dont think there are many other places where the 501st Heavy Tank Btn faced US forces.

What is most notable is to look at the shade of the pic that Manny posted, and then loook at these from Satori--quite a huge difference in both the shade of paint, and the weathered effects. The argument against Tunisa gains some creedence from the former fact, so it's entirely possible?

RMC_Birdgunner wrote:

The knocked out Pz III with the American soldiers looks like something "The Doog" would build. Really Cool pics! Thanks for sharing guys.

Hmmmm, not enough weathering. 

Different angle of the same wreck posted by Manstein's revenge.

The one on the right was later pulled off the road. There were few more around that spot.

Bolted on frontal armor; lack of turret top signal port; late style radioman's hatch and single piece coupla hatch... These are late ausf G, and 825 looked like a upgunned final ausf G. These tanks dated to March 1943 or after, they couldn't of participated in El Guettar. In fact, I doubt those photos were taken in Tunisia.

The lead elements of 501st heavy Tank Btn did not arrive in Africa until late November 1942. Most of their vehicles were new production. El Guettar was fought in March of 1943. So the vehicles in question would only have four months or so of combat usage and exposure to the climate. Unlike the older veterans of the 15th and 21st panzer Divisions. Although most of their older armored vehicles by this point had been lost in combat and their later inventories would be new replacements.

Definitely Tunisia and definitely not Dunkelgelb. These photos were all taken in the spring of '43 around El Guettar and later battles leading up to the final capitulation in May '43. The colors here are likely RAL 8020/RAL 7027 with some dirt/mud mixed in plus the effects of filtering/color shift in the photos. Don't let the green grass field fool you, Tunisia is quite temperate in climate and accounts of the fighting during this time period make mention of the Tunisians trying to plant and tend to their wheat fields but kept having to deal with the Germans sowing them with mines instead!

It is interesting to see the spare track runs painted the same color as the hull as well as the overall condition of the vehicle even though it's knocked out/abandoned. Definitely not the "desert whitewash" effect that's so popular for N. Afrika vehicles.

I would wager on Tunisia being where the photos were taken. 1) Life magazine covered that campaign quite well and many of their photos from there being previously published. 2) the appearance of the terrain and vegetation would match a springtime there versus Russia. 3) I dont know of many color photos from Soviet sources from the Eastern Front, most color photos from Russia were of German origin.

The knocked out Pz III with the American soldiers looks like something "The Doog" would build.

Really Cool pics!

Thanks for sharing guys.

I am no specialist in deciphering old pictures. Correct me if I am mistaken but are the spare tracks painted over in the hull color?

Thanks,

Joe

Unfortunately there was some sort of filter on all these photos.