Saving Private Ryan - this has been bugging me

Here is a link to a list of current 60mm mortar rounds and fuses. At least since the 1980s when the 60mm came back in to US Army service

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mortar/60mm.html

Now looking at the diagram of the round if one holds the forward portion of the round and not the tail assembly, it looks like the propellant gasses bbIII talks about would miss the hands... kind of like during the firing of  a revolver.

below are typical WW2 60mm US mortar rounds

and some info on WWII era rounds

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/60mm.html

Stik,

Mayyyyyybe... but I'm still skeptical.  Granted, I've never been in a situation where I needed (or was inclinded) to try it, but there is still the issue of, in effect replacing the mortar tube with your hand and holding the round after the igniting and booster charges are fired...  seems a bit unlikely to me.  I mean, look at the size of the charge (I know it is an 81, but the 60 is not much smaller - definately larger, or about the same as the 12-gauge shell), on the site you linked to...  A lot of pressure is being released.  That is going to have some ooomph.  Granted, much of it will dissipate due to the absence of the tube, but...

Then there is the issue of throwing the round hard enough and far enough for the round to spin enough to arm the fuse (assuming as I am that WWII rounds armed through rotation as do modern rounds).

The fact of it is, when I see the scene in the movie, part of my mind says, "Hmmm, not so fast", but another part of my mind says, "Yeah, throw another one at those Kraut bastards!"

I am right with you there. I am curious as to how plausible it is. Sounds like a great one for Mythbusters to examine. I can pretty much buy the banging to arm the fuse as long as the round is gripped midsection. Like a bang stick or zip gun it will let your hand know its there, but in that tight of combat bruising is low on priorties. Liek you said, "throw another one!" I can't find anything online to specificly say how they were armed. Much of what has been mentioned here are all modern (Vietnam and later) rounds and fuses. Obviously the launch method has not changed at all since first invented (a perfect example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ). Fusing I suspect were much simpler, timer or impact. VT was not allowed to be used in anything but AAA until the Battle of the Bulge due to its' secrecy. Only then was it released to FA as a nasty surprise to the Germans. I will say that i am learning for more about mortars here than I knew before. All I knew was call for fire... You called, they delivered.

Here are the four types of 60mm rounds in service:training, HE, WP-Smoke, and Illum. Nice and simple.

I just found this link to a table of comparison from an Army.mil webpage about comparison of old (presume WW2) and new (current) 60mm mortar rounds. look about 1/4 down the page. I could not get the images to transfer.

https://rdl.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/10575-1/ACCP/MM25987/lsn.htm#chart

Interesting page but it didn't answer the ultimate question about how those rounds are armed.  Still, based on the information I currently have available, I'm going to move this myth from the 'Busted' pile into the 'Plausible'....

By the way, speaking of SPR, I saw a thread on another forum where someone was claiming that, in the final scene, where Miller is shot up at the end of the bridge and the Tiger is coming towards him and he is plinking away at it with his .45, that it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there, that destroyed the tank and not the fighter that flew overhead a second later...

Sounds like a job for

That guy probably thinks "Steamboat Willie" is the one who knifes Fisch also...

bbrowniii

By the way, speaking of SPR, I saw a thread on another forum where someone was claiming that, in the final scene, where Miller is shot up at the end of the bridge and the Tiger is coming towards him and he is plinking away at it with his .45, that it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there, that destroyed the tank and not the fighter that flew overhead a second later...

Hey, in Hollywierd ANYTHING is possible!  I mean, look at the moon landings.  They made them so real people actually think we went to the moon when all along it was done on a sound stage!

Brian

Wow, are we REALLY going to go there?  This thread will either hit 100 pages or get locked!

Chris

P.S. We did land on the moon.  Just saying......

That was sarcasm about the moonlanding... Hence the little "devil" emoticon..

I was only talking about fuze arming, but since you brought up the primer issue, Brownie, is it possible that the primers were recessed far enough inside that there wouldn't be any actual strike on the primer?

...it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there,...

That guy read too many "Haunted Tank" comics... Rick (Jeb's gunner) could put a 37mm down the Tiger's tube, but would wait until the loader had the breech open in order for the 37mm round to go down the tube and detonate inside the turret...

Anyhow, the 88's fuze wouldn't be armed, hence a bullet-strike wouldn't set the round off..

Killjoy

Wow, are we REALLY going to go there?  This thread will either hit 100 pages or get locked!

Chris

P.S. We did land on the moon.  Just saying......

As Hans said twas a joke.  My tounge was firmly planted in cheek with that statement.

Brian

Hans von Hammer

That was sarcasm about the moonlanding... Hence the little "devil" emoticon..

I was only talking about fuze arming, but since you brought up the primer issue, Brownie, is it possible that the primers were recessed far enough inside that there wouldn't be any actual strike on the primer?

Nope.  The primer is flush with the base of the tail.  Smack that puppy on the ground or a rock and you are dropping it directly on the primer.  HOWEVER, on an 81mm mortar round, when the primer goes off, it drives the floating firing pin into the ignition charge, which in term ignites the increments.  The ignition charge is located further up the tail assembly (by a couple of inches), BUT that is on the 81.  I think the ignition charge on the 60mm mortar rounds (because they are significantly shorter than the 81) are  located directly above the primer....

Hans von Hammer

...it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there,...

That guy read too many "Haunted Tank" comics... Rick (Jeb's gunner) could put a 37mm down the Tiger's tube, but would wait until the loader had the breech open in order for the 37mm round to go down the tube and detonate inside the turret...

Anyhow, the 88's fuze wouldn't be armed, hence a bullet-strike wouldn't set the round off..

Yup....  I just found that perspective a little.... moronic...  I mean, did the guy actually WATCH the movie, for cryin' out loud?

Some of you are assuming that arming the fuse and firing the propellant go hand in hand. At least on the PIAT this is not the case, the firing pin goes well into a cavity on the round (the PIAT is really more like a rifle grenade in a bazooka looking launcher) so it is not easy to trigger the propellant, but giving it a solid smackdown on the tail will trip the fuse.

Don't mortars have a variable charge to adjust range? If so shouldn't it be possible to remove the propellant completely? (assuming you can trick the fuse with the smack on the tail bit).

Aaronw

Don't mortars have a variable charge to adjust range? If so shouldn't it be possible to remove the propellant completely? (assuming you can trick the fuse with the smack on the tail bit).

I kind of addressed this, but to review:  yes, mortars do have removable propellant charges (called increments).  However, even a round fired with charge zero (all increments removed) will travel quite a distance - I don't have firing tables in front of me, but it would be a couple hundred meters for a 60 (I assume).  And, yes, the arming and the firing (at least on modern rounds) are seperate, but that smacking part initiates the firing sequence (and perhaps on WWII rounds the arming as well).

Hans von Hammer

That was sarcasm about the moonlanding... Hence the little "devil" emoticon..

I was only talking about fuze arming, but since you brought up the primer issue, Brownie, is it possible that the primers were recessed far enough inside that there wouldn't be any actual strike on the primer?

 

...it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there,...

 

That guy read too many "Haunted Tank" comics... Rick (Jeb's gunner) could put a 37mm down the Tiger's tube, but would wait until the loader had the breech open in order for the 37mm round to go down the tube and detonate inside the turret...

Anyhow, the 88's fuze wouldn't be armed, hence a bullet-strike wouldn't set the round off..

Hans, you are truly a man after my own heart.  I have a box full of GI Combat (The Haunted Tank), Sgt Rock, and Weird War comics.  I also have the first 12 (only 12 for that matter) of the Blitzkrieg comic from the German perspective.  Ah Nostalgia!

Hans, you are truly a man after my own heart.  I have a box full of GI Combat (The Haunted Tank), Sgt Rock, and Weird War comics.  I also have the first 12 (only 12 for that matter) of the Blitzkrieg comic from the German perspective.  Ah Nostalgia!

Well, I didn't pick m' screen name because I thought "Hans" sounded good, lol...  I too spent many hours in my "fort" with "The Combat Happy Joes of Easy Co.", "Jeb Stewart" and Rick, Slim , & Arch, and the rest, like "Enemy Ace", "Lt Steve Savage", and "Johnny Cloud"...

NEXT:

* Capt. Miller is a Darby Ranger. Their uniforms are completely wrong

* has anyone noticed the complete absense of Browning 30 caliber machine guns with the shoulder stock? This was a weapon widely used by airborne units

* P51D's are tank busters? I think that the term was applied to Typhoons and medium bombers (A20, B26, and Invaders). The P51d was used as an air superiority fighter. Perhaps a P51A?

gary

Capt. Miller and Darby's Rangers. Now here we get in to some "rivet counting". Darby's Rangers were formed in 1942 in the UK, originally the 1st Ranger Battalion. 50 went ashore at Dieppe in August 1942 to get combat experience. After North Africa, the 3rd and later 4th Ranger Battalions were formed and added to the force. They were destroyed at Anzio early in the battle during late January and survivors transferred to the 1st Special Service Force. These Ranger units wore the black, white, and red Ranger scrolls like what is worn on todays Ranger Regiment soldiers (the scroll, not the tab from the school). 

Rudders Rangers, the 2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions, which would go ashore in Normandy were formed in the US and then sent to England as part of the force for Overlord. These Rangers originally wore the Blue and Gold diamond shaped Ranger patch and later adopted the scroll.

I have read of one Ranger officer in Rudder's Rangers that had previously served in Darby's but he was relieved before the invasion. These two battalions had seen no action prior to June 6 and would have had little to no need for replacements coming in to the unit prior to the landing. Except perhaps to replace men injured or killed in training accidents. So possible, yes, probable...? you decide.

As far as uniforms go, the researcher did a great job there. For Overlord, the Ranger Force wore impregnated (an anti gas treatment) HBT fatigues with M41 field jackets and assault vests. What the actors wore in the movie. Helmets were marked as shown with the standard NCO or officers white stripe on the rear of the helmet as an orange diamond with the number of the battalion on the diamond on the back of the helmet as well for all Rangers.

Tank Busters? I think that was due to what they had flyable for filming. P-47s would have been the best choice, but how many of those are still flying today? Plus I do believe that Spielberg has a "thing" for Mustangs. Just a hunch, but look at "Empire of the Sun". And if you watch the special features Disc with movies he made as kid with a home camera near a desert aircraft boneyard. In the ETO, the few US P-51As were recon photo birds. Most Allison engined US P-51s flew in the MTO or CBI.

stikpusher

Tank Busters? I think that was due to what they had flyable for filming. P-47s would have been the best choice, but how many of those are still flying today? Plus I do believe that Spielberg has a "thing" for Mustangs. Just a hunch, but look at "Empire of the Sun". And if you watch the special features Disc with movies he made as kid with a home camera near a desert aircraft boneyard. In the ETO, the few US P-51As were recon photo birds. Most Allison engined US P-51s flew in the MTO or CBI.

I think you can also write that off as 'grunt talk'.  The the lowly infantryman, every tank was a tiger, everytime they got shelled, it was by 88's, and every plane that killed a tank was a tankbuster.  I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

I agree on terminology. But as far as the role of the aircraft itself. Mustang was the hottest fighter in the USAAF in the ETO. They were tasked with the air superiority mission by the time of D-Day, the P-47 and P-38 had the dual fighter bomber role by then, but not the P-51. Not a big deal, save for the aero historian.

Biggest issue I had with authenticity was the German haircuts... The German Heer and Waffen-SS hair regs were quite strict, and the buzz-cuts shown on "Steamboat Willie" and the SS soldier were pretty unlikely...  Most German haircuts were a kind of loose "High & Tight" with long hair on the top and "whitewalls" on the sides... I actually wore a WW2 German hairstyle during my reenactment days and, since I was still on Active Duty, a source of (good-natured) friction between me & my Sergeant Major on several occasions, even though I was still within the scope of AR 670-1...   Had to give it up when we got those stupid berets though...

Hans von Hammer

Biggest issue I had with authenticity was the German haircuts...

If that was your biggest issue, I'd say you were a pretty big fan of the movie.

I like the movie and thus I try not to pick it apart much. I was thinking, since you mentioned it, that though the P-51's primary mission was to escort bombers wouldn't it have been common place for the fighters to strafe targets of opportunity once the bombing mission had been completed? If that's the case, it could explain why several P-51's came to the rescue. This, however, would bring up another question. Can 6 .50 calibers do that much damage to a Tiger? The Tiger had (correct me if I'm wrong) 26 mm of armor on the turret top and engine deck. Could a .50 cal round penetrate that? Clearly rockets would have been the optimum choice, however, in the movie the 51's aren't carrying rockets or bombs, especially if they had just been escorting bombers.

......unless of course it was actually Capt. Miller's Colt 1911 that destroyed the Tiger and not the P-51's........

oddmanrush

 in the movie the 51's aren't carrying rockets or bombs, especially if they had just been escorting bombers.

Well, we don't know that.  Perhaps the -51 had been carrying a rocket and used its last one on the Tiger....

stikpusher

Capt. Miller and Darby's Rangers. Now here we get in to some "rivet counting". Darby's Rangers were formed in 1942 in the UK, originally the 1st Ranger Battalion. 50 went ashore at Dieppe in August 1942 to get combat experience. After North Africa, the 3rd and later 4th Ranger Battalions were formed and added to the force. They were destroyed at Anzio early in the battle during late January and survivors transferred to the 1st Special Service Force. These Ranger units wore the black, white, and red Ranger scrolls like what is worn on todays Ranger Regiment soldiers (the scroll, not the tab from the school). 

Rudders Rangers, the 2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions, which would go ashore in Normandy were formed in the US and then sent to England as part of the force for Overlord. These Rangers originally wore the Blue and Gold diamond shaped Ranger patch and later adopted the scroll.

I have read of one Ranger officer in Rudder's Rangers that had previously served in Darby's but he was relieved before the invasion. These two battalions had seen no action prior to June 6 and would have had little to no need for replacements coming in to the unit prior to the landing. Except perhaps to replace men injured or killed in training accidents. So possible, yes, probable...? you decide.

As far as uniforms go, the researcher did a great job there. For Overlord, the Ranger Force wore impregnated (an anti gas treatment) HBT fatigues with M41 field jackets and assault vests. What the actors wore in the movie. Helmets were marked as shown with the standard NCO or officers white stripe on the rear of the helmet as an orange diamond with the number of the battalion on the diamond on the back of the helmet as well for all Rangers.

Tank Busters? I think that was due to what they had flyable for filming. P-47s would have been the best choice, but how many of those are still flying today? Plus I do believe that Spielberg has a "thing" for Mustangs. Just a hunch, but look at "Empire of the Sun". And if you watch the special features Disc with movies he made as kid with a home camera near a desert aircraft boneyard. In the ETO, the few US P-51As were recon photo birds. Most Allison engined US P-51s flew in the MTO or CBI.

Darby Ranger were the ones that scaled the cliffs. They wear a completely different uniform that regular Army did at the time. It closely resembles a Vietnam era jungle fatigue, but is grey in color. The shoulder patches they wore I don't really remember. There was no lower pockets on the pants as best I can remember. Somewhere I have a photo of what was said to be the last surviving Darby Ranger in uniform, so I'll have to start the hunt for it this  weekend. It's been years since I've seen it, but I know I didn't toss it.

as for the aircraft, I never felt that the P51D was the wise choice for the film. They were not as well suited for low level raids as the P51 / A36 were (as well as a P39/ Tempest were. But in reallity it would probably have been an A20 or a B26 Marauder out the busting tanks. Perhaps a Havoc with invasion stripes (I don't remember seeing them on the Mustangs by the way)

gary

bbrowniii

 

 

 

Well, we don't know that.  Perhaps the -51 had been carrying a rocket and used its last one on the Tiger....

Well, I would agree with you there, except for the lack of hard points to attach the ordnance. I mean, all of this is speculation, only a movie, hence some suspension of disbelief is in order. I mean, there is no sound in the vacuum of space but I still love Star Wars...

Gary, I will respectfully disagree on Darby's Rangers. Col. Darby was stateside at the time of the Normandy landings. He was not associated with that Ranger Force.Col Rudder commanded the Overlord Ranger Force of the 2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions. They wore the HBT fatigues with M41 filed jackets for the landings. The HBT fatigues had two large chest cargo pockets on the shirt and two large hip/thigh cargo pockets on the pants. The M41 Field Jackets were a Khaki Olive material with two slash pockets on the front. There are a few photos around on the net of the Ranger Force at Pt Du Hoc which I will try to find and post.

As far as invasion stripes go, they were applied to all Allied aircraft associated with the landings except for certain four engine types (B-17, B-24, Lancaster) Everything else that was to fly in the area of the beachheads had them applied.

Here are a few shots of Rangers at Pt DuHoc. In them you can see the large cargo packets on the pant leg in the hip area. In the middle photo if you look closely you will see a wounded British Commando who accompanied the Ranger Force and a 101st Paratrooper who landed at the base of the cliffs the during the night drop and joined the Ranger Assault.

But in reallity it would probably have been an A20 or a B26 Marauder out the busting tanks. Perhaps a Havoc with invasion stripes (I don't remember seeing them on the Mustangs by the way)

A-20s and B-26s aren't tankbusters in any sense of the word... Even though the A-20 had the Attack designator, it was used in the medium bomber roll in the ETO & MTO, same as the B-25 & B-26...   The A-20s had a major roll in attacking targets like bridges, railroad & troop marshalling areas, and airfields, but they didn't do any type of CAS missions like tank-plinking or hitting pillbox positions and such...

Invasion stripes were applied to all tactical aircraft types used during Overlord, or aircraft used in a tactical roll (C-47s, gliders, L-birds)...  Aircraft like the B-17, B-24, and Lancaster were strategic bombers, hence no stripes..  

Hans von Hammer

But in reallity it would probably have been an A20 or a B26 Marauder out the busting tanks. Perhaps a Havoc with invasion stripes (I don't remember seeing them on the Mustangs by the way)

A-20s and B-26s aren't tankbusters in any sense of the word... Even though the A-20 had the Attack designator, it was used in the medium bomber roll in the ETO & MTO, same as the B-25 & B-26...   The A-20s had a major roll in attacking targets like bridges, railroad & troop marshalling areas, and airfields, but they didn't do any type of CAS missions like tank-plinking or hitting pillbox positions and such...

Invasion stripes were applied to all tactical aircraft types used during Overlord, or aircraft used in a tactical roll (C-47s, gliders, L-birds)...  Aircraft like the B-17, B-24, and Lancaster were strategic bombers, hence no stripes..  

I've read several times that the two hardest things on German armor were Hawker Typhoons and "A" series bombers (probably all medium bombers too). The vast majority of German armor that was knocked out was by aircraft. A group of Havocs or Invaders were often used as a wolf pack looking for targets of oppertunity just like they did with the P47 (what a work horse). Patton even went so far as to issue an order saying that his men were to by pass Panther Tanks and the likes and leave them for the bombers. Now with the Normandy invasion alone; the vast amount of German armor knocked out was from carpet bombing (what planes were used is a mute point). My point here is that you wouldn't use a P51D as a low level ground attack plane. You'd use a P51A or even a P40 or P47. The P51A had equale if not slightly better performance at very low levels that the "D" model. But the Typhoon would have been the weapon of choice in a tank busting role; not a Mustang.

gary