Panther Ausf A - Italy 1943 | Panther Ausf A Russia, NO ZIMMERIT

I've checked a couple Osprey books on panzer divisions, as well as a Squadron publication on SS armour.  Looks like it was the 1st SS-Panzer-Division LAH you are looking for..  According to Osprey, during the summer of '43 they were in northern Italy for occupation duty.  There is a quick entry of atrocities, followed with the unit  sent back to Russia in November of that same year.

Squadron describes their stay in Italy for training and re-equipping, including a battalion of Panthers.

Bit more in depth detail, and photos, here:

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php

regards,

Jack

Thanks for the great information Jack!

Liam

While the 1st SS Pz Dv. did receive a Panther Abteilung while they were re-fitting during the summer of 1943 in Northern Italy, LSSAH saw no combat action in Italy, only training and anti-partisan duties, then promptly sent back to Russia. While I have some photos of these Panther A's, they appear to have Zimmerit in most photos, some you just can't tell.

A Panther Ausf A without zimmerit can be seen in at least one photo of vehicles of the 1st Battalion, Panzer Regiment 4, (an independent Panzer unit which was detached from the 13th Pz Dv and sent to Italy.)  I can't find the photo at the moment, but a two-page color artwork depicting this photo can be found on page 58-59 of Osprey's Anzio 1944. These Panthers saw action in the spring of 1944 in and around Anzio, Nettuno and Aquillo.

Thanks for the info Ixion, I would love to see that photo if you ever find it (Or do you recall the Number on the turret?). I guess I will be modeling my Panther after this... time for some more research. I can't be certain but the picture below is suppose to be an Ausf A in Anzio. I can't make out if It has zim on it or not.

I'm still new to the hobby and getting to know my way around the history aspect of it. Would I be correct to assume this tank would be painted in the Dark Yellow fashion with the Balkans Cross between the exhaust and on the turret?

Liam

Yep, more research required - lol.

This Panther definitely is no longer from an  SS unit.  The commander in the copula has the chest eagle on his jacket (the SS wore their eagle insignia on the upper left sleeve).

If the setting is Anzio, it is likely very early 1944.  The allied invasion took place January 22nd.  Initially the Panthers sent there were organized as an independent battalion, I./Pz Rgt.4 and would eventually be absorbed by 26 Panzer Div.

regards,

Jack

Good news...I found the photo, bad news...the artwork based on it in Osprey's Anzio 1944 is wrong.   The Panther A in question actually does have Zimmerit in the photo. This is not as easy as I first thought. I did manage to find the combat history of the 1/ PzRg 4 in the Combat History of sPzAbt 507 , as they were attached to the 507th during the campaign, then absorbed into the 26th Pz Dv. Here again, grainy photos make identification difficult. On page 188 of Combat History of sPzAbt 507 there is a photo which could go either way, sorry I don't have a scanner or I would post it.  The photo you posted of 221 appears to have Zimmerit. Starting on page 42 of this;  http://www.scribd.com/doc/82564016/Panzers-in-Italy-1943-1945-English you will find photos of 1/PzRg 4 Panthers. 221 is finished in overall Dark Yellow with crosses at the far front of the hull sides and between the exhausts on the rear. No crosses on the turret. At least some had turret numbers on the turret rear as well. Osprey's Modelling the Panther Tank covers a detailed built of Panther 415 of 1/PzRg4, but alas, with Zim.

The only photo of a Panther A without Zim that I know of of the top of my head is on page 62 of Jentz's Panther Tank, the Quest for Combat Supremacy and it certainly isn't in Italy. You only have about a week's worth of production from the 4 plants before the introduction of Zimmerit, so finding a photo will be difficult at best.

Here is a shot of the rear of 221;

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=250556&mode=view

Note the storage box and bundle of fascines on the rear deck, as can also be seen in the side view of 221 you posted. You can also see the small square-patterned Zimmerit clearly on the left rear hull storage bin.

That photo is definitely showing zim...cheers....Kenny

This is what I was afraid of, dam zimmerit. Where was the Panther you speak of in Jentz's book? And apart of what Pz.Div? ... The research will never end, haha

Liam

The photo is on page 62 of Jentz's Panther Tank, the Quest for Combat Supremacy. This vehicle (no unit listed, but appears to be in Russia) was built by Daimler-Benz on or about October 1st, 1943, a month after Ausf A production  began and three weeks Zimmerit application was offically to have begun. The Fahrgestell nummer or Chassis Number of this vehicle is 151951. Fgst.Nr. for Panther Ausf A built at Daimler-Benz ran between 151901 through 152575. This means there were 50 Panther Ausf As built at D-B by Oct.1st, when this vehicle, which was without Zimmerit, rolled off the assembly line. If Zimmerit application had not yet started at D-B by Oct. 1st, most likely the preceding 50 did not have it either. It is not known how soon after this date Zimmerit application at D-B actually started. A similar situation could also have existed at MAN, MNH and Demag as well. So there were a considerable, yet still small number of these vehicles built. In addition, on page 144 there is a brief operational history of Panthers in Italy. This shipment of 76 Panthers for 1/PzRg 4 was mainly early Ausf A, but there were also a few Ausf D included, this may raise the possibility of a few unzimmed Ausf A being present. However, many of these unzimmed Ausf D and Ausf A could have received Zimmerit at a later date when sent back for major repairs, but we know the not all of them did, as I also came across another photo in the Ardennes of a Ausf A without Zim. 

Big ol' can of worms here....

So I could still model my panther with no zim after the 1/PzRg4 in and around Anzio, Or perhaps model it after that one in the Ardennes, I found some photos on it here, but it appears to be an Ausf D in Russia...

While it appears possible that 1/PzRg4 might have had one, I would still want to find a photo to be sure, but that's just me. Or go with the Ardennes one, since you found the photo and artwork.

Yeah, I would also want a photo haha. But the one in the Ardennes region is also speculated to be a D in Russia... oh my oh my

Here are some pictures I found of Ausf A's which are questionable, but appear with out zim. I don't have a keen eye for spotting it in these grainy photos though.

one

Two

three

All 3 of those photos show zimmerit.

Thanks for comformation, like I said not a keen eye for those details on old crappy photos. I still wonder if that Panther was actually an Ausf A in the Ardennes.

438 in the Ardennes is definately NOT a Ausf D. You can plainly see the square-cut interlock between the turret side and turret front, Ausf D had a dove-tailed interlock welding seam.

Well that's good news :) Now I just need to brush up on my camo painting skills, haha.

Ah, how I long for those days, not so long ago, early 70's,  when I could build the old Tamiya Panther ausf A,  no references anywhere, no zimmerit (what's zimmerit?) paint it like the box art, and look at it in blissful ignorance.  But I still wouldn't want to go back to that point in time.

Perhaps you might want to consider doing your own zimm?  I've done it many  times, isn't really all  that hard. Well, it can be a pain...  Or you can consider that it was one without zimmerit that never had it's picture taken.  There had to be one of those, right?  As some others here have observed, zimmerit  can be quite difficult to observe in grainy photos.  I've had that problem as well.

good luck

Doug

BTW, I built a Dragon A based on that pic in the Jentz book, no zimm,  then one with Cavalier zimm.

Yeah, I'll build one with zim and one without at some point. I try and tackle making my own zim at a later point, haha.

According to the site I lifted it from, "ausf A sicuramente non zimmerati".  I have not seen this as a actual photo. There are tons of GD photos to wade through......maybe later.

Not necessarily a can of worms, but perhaps a needle in the haystack?  According to a quoted source from  Jentz's "Germany's Panther Tank", production of the Ausf A started in Aug. of 1943 with only 3 being completed that month.  Difficult to guesstimate just how many early A's left the factories sans zimmerit as the official application dates vary so widely.  It does knock out I./Pz. Rgt. 4 as a possibility as they were sent to Italy in February 1944 to counter the Anzio landings.

I may have another contender,  though more recent research may come along to debunk it.  This one takes it's setting in southern Russia with Schweres Panzerregiment Bäke.  A photo appears on page 9 of Squadron's Panther in Action.  More info and a dedicated build here:

members.verizon.net/.../panther.htm

regards,

Jack

Before this thread runs completely off the edge, I would just like to state that I have no evidence there were any non-zimmed Ausf A in Italy at all. The stupid drawing in Osprey's Anzio 1944 started this goose-chase by depicting a naked Ausf A in a two page color spread and being familiar with the actual photo, I ran with it. Upon finding the photo in question and realising the Osprey drawing is bogus, I've got no game. The time period is close enough, the shipment of early model Ausf A's are in the right period, but without records of Fgst. Nr. and where they were shipped, one can only hope to find a photo, otherwise this is like trying to prove/disprove God.

Anyways, in the link Jack posted  is the photo in question from page 62 of Jentz's Panther Tank. Great news! Now we know what unit it is from! The caption under it in Jentz's book states it was built on or about Oct 1st from the D-Benz factory. Production figures on page 60 state that 50 Ausf A were built  at DB prior to this vehicle, since it doesn't have Zim, I highly doubt the previous 50 did either, then there are the other 3 factories outputs as well. So I'm going to say there were at least 50 Ausf A without Zim. The introduction of Zimmerit was scheduled for Sept 7th, but all factories did not start at the same time. Only 3 Ausf A total were completed before Sept of 1943 at all 4 factories, production did not start in earnest until Sept..

 Even though the shipment of 76 Panthers to 1/PzRg 4 wasn't until Feb of 44, it still had some Ausf D included, be they rebuilds (probably, since there were so many problems with them ) or new, I don't know, but the Ausf A were  early production models, as seen by the initial horizontal jack placement in photos, and other features as well. Besides, Squadron misidentifies this as a Ausf D, which it is not, because we know the Fgst.Nr. is 151951, which can actually be seen in the photo in Jentz's book.

Time to check out Panzerregiment Bäke.... Schweres Panzer-Regiment Bäke was formed on 23 Jan 1944, so just about the same time as the actions in Italy.My guess is if a non-zim Ausf A can show up in Russia at this late date, maybe Italy too? I would like to know how this Ausf A was identified as belonging to Schweres Panzer-Regiment Bäke?  I'm not saying it doesn't belong to Bake, I'd just like to know, as it might shed some light as to the rest of the non-zims...however many there actually are. Since Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 is part of this unit and I have the Combat History of sPzAbt 503 I'll see if there are any photos or info there...Searching for II/ Panzer regiment 23 isn't yielding much.

Alas I am confused, this is some tough work finding these non zim tanks. So perhaps there may have been no zim Ausf A's in Italy and in Russi... what of the 438 in the Ardennes? Could this possibly be in Russia?

Liam

Don't you just love it when a simple question grows into something ridiculous?

Squadron's Panther in Action, page 14 caption says 438 is in the Ardennes. It also states it is a Ausf D....well, in Mr Jentz I trust, all others take a back seat. 438 most certainly is not a Ausf D, the diagram on page 57 of Panther Tank, Quest for Combat Supremacy clearly shows the difference in the interlocking turret joints of a Ausf A vs a Ausf D, which can be seen in the photo, so Squadron is wrong about that. I looked in my copy of the 544 page Battle of the Bulge, Then and Now to see if I could confirm 438's location, but could not find the photo. The fact that it is a Bundesarchiv photo helps a lot, as we should be able to track down and confirm it's location, assuming I can remember which website will do this type of search.

Well thats good news, from Italy to the Ardennes.. boy was this fun haha.

Liam

Here you go, knock yourself out;

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/

Put on the hip waders, its going to get deep!

OK, I'm out for the night, I need a beer....have fun!

Cheers Ixion! I found another angle of the 438 and 435 aswell ;) 

Looky what I found;

www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/.../_1359693881=detail&search[focus]=21

Please feel free to retire one's Squadron's "In Action" series to the nearest National Park outhouse....

Squadron in action series have lots of nice photos, really poor captions.

Well, thats closure enough for me. I'll model my Panther Ausf A based on the idea that there were a couple more like the 438 and 435 seen in the pictures and stick it onto a diorama in the Ardennes. I still can't make out the camo pattern on them though. Cheers for the help Ixion!

Liam

Read the Bundesarchiv carefully ....Russland Nord...that's northern Russia!