5. SS Div Wiking question

That's how I would approach it if I were doing a winter camouflage over the summer colors.  I would provide a hint of the criss-cross, then a sloppy winter wash over it.  But, I am new to armor modeling and I am learning different techniques.

Bill

Yeah, not sure what is up with the different camou styles within the same company, but apparently each company had their own distinct pattern.

In the publication Viking Summer by Dennis Oliver, he states 534 had an usual hard edge camouflage scheme seen in August 1944, quite a change from what was usually a soft mottle scheme for 5th company.  The hand painted striped patterns seems to be attributed to 6th company vehicles. These observation though, seem to be typical of the summer '44 period.

regards,

Jack

Colorized...., but same company and a clear view of this pattern;

Obviously summer, so earlier time period, but looks more like previous photo than stripped pattern does. Identified as "Nurzec-Stacja, Poland, July 22, 1944".

Another shot;

 534 really got around, or at least was photographed a lot.

There are however, plenty of shots of Wiking Panthers in stripped camo, this appears to be 6th company;

Hard to corroborate without time stamps or other info on photos.

 For a mere $200;

I went back to the picture of the 522 tank that was posted the other day and copied it on my PC. I enlarged it and ever though it is burry I cannot make out any of the "crisscross camo" that Echelon has on their picture of 522. Think it will be ok to just add a little red and green camo then do the winter camo over it?

I see 7 black shields with the curves of the swastika only.  The cross parts that connect them are seperate decals.  It does look like an interesting set, though, and I will order one.

Bill

But they do. There are 7 of them on the sheet.

If that is the camo on 522 then I'll pick another tank. Going to order an Echelon this week. Thanks for the info.

It is interesting that Echelon printed the full swastika used by Wiking on the cover but not on the decal sheet.

Bill

There is Echelon's decal set for some possible ideas for the camou underneath the whitewash.   The left side are representative of some of Wiking's Panthers:

regards,

Jack

Also, page 61 of the book Squadron book SS Armor states that Wiking was replenished with at least 8 companies of Panther Ausf As at Kovel, Poland after escaping from Korsun.  There are several photos of several of these As.  At this time, Wiking was reported to be authorized 75 Panthers with a strength of 77. All were Ausf. As.  From that point on their Panther strength gradually wore away to zero by April 1, 1945.  They do not appear to have been refurbished with Panther Ausf. Gs.

Bill

Nice links Jack. I have seen the Panther site before but not that page. It clearly shows Wikings got no new Panthers after mid April, those would have been A's.

I am amazed they went a whole year without replacements.

There is also this site dedicated to the Panther tank, and looking through the unit History, there does not look to be any additional Panthers sent to Wiking after March/April 1944.

http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/kurzchroniken-der-panthertruppenteile/173-ss-pzrgt-5?showall=&start=2

Also listing of Panther production and allocations:

http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1944

Unfortunately neither of those links specify Panther types, and you have to awkwardly cross reference with the site's listing of known chassis numbers - Fahrgestellnummern:

http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/zuordenbare-fahrgestellnummern/produktionsjahr-44

regards,

Jack

Thanks guys!!!

I knew I came to the right place for that question.

Never done a build log but might for this tank but it will be a few months before I can ever start.

jgeratic

I know it's not nice to direct members to other forums, but when it comes to historical accuracy questions, you can almost always bet it has been discussed at length at some point over at missing-lynx.

I've looked at few search results there, seems to be the opinion Wiking never did get any Panther G's, and was at the receiving end of the last production batch of the A's.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/search?searchterm=Kovel+wiking&sort=match

regards,

Jack

 

Interesting. The G was introduced in, off the top of my head, April/May, so its certainlypossable Wiking was fully re-equipped with the last A's. But to go through the rest of the war without getting any new tanks, i find that strange.

Will have to check out that link tonight.

However, I have seen several photos purported to be Wiking Panther G's dated Winter, 1945.  I simply did a search for 5 SS Panzer Division Panther Tanks 1944-1945.  Hundreds of photos come up, all labelled Wiking, Eastern Front,Winter 1944-1945.  Many of these are clearly G's.  The rest seem to be A's, but they are not clear.

Bill

I know it's not nice to direct members to other forums, but when it comes to historical accuracy questions, you can almost always bet it has been discussed at length at some point over at missing-lynx.

I've looked at few search results there, seems to be the opinion Wiking never did get any Panther G's, and was at the receiving end of the last production batch of the A's.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/search?searchterm=Kovel+wiking&sort=match

regards,

Jack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icq4mwVu744 

heres some film from the battle of Kowel, It should be the panther unit that was refitting in Germany. anyways hope this helps

I would guess that it is a variant of the three-color scheme under the winter whitewash.  I would further guess that any color under the whitewash would have been very sloppy as German forces had very little time for the niceties of a professional finish.

Bill

Thanks. I found 2 pictures of 521 in snow camo like the one you posted with snow on the ground and it said they were taken outside Budapest in early 1945.

That picture is good enough for me as long as an Panther "A" will work. I'm just building it for me and not a museum.

Does anybody think that besides the snow camo on that tank some of it is a little dark to be "dark yellow"? Makes me wonder if is is a 3 color camo under the snow camo.

Thanks again!!

I believe this to be the vehicle in question, however no date or identifying info for the photo is given;

I'm fairly certain I have seen this photo with a Bundesarchiv stamp at the bottom, but a quick search of the Bundesarchiv database did not produce this image. Another shot of 522, identified as belonging to Wiking, can be found on page 61 of Squadron's SS Armor.

That will help. I can't do much at the moment as i am at work and restricted to what sites i can go on, but will have a look tonight.

They would have had an Ausf A number 522 in late 43 early 44. So just finding a photo of that type with that number wouyld not be evidance unless itcan be confirmed in in Hungary.

Here's what I had hoped to do. The Archer Fine Transfer is for Panther Ausf A 5 of 5 SS Wiking. It says  522. Dark Yelow with mottled winter camo Hungery , 1945.

I've been trying to track that down because I really wanted to use that transfer and do some mottled winter camo on the Panther.

blackdog62

Oops I didn't catch that. spell check threw that in its supposed to say it's a panther A model.

 

I should have realised that really.

There were definetly earlier models of tanks still in use at the very end. There is a well known Tiger I which is i think an early production being used in Berlin in 1945. Many of these had been relegated to training units after being sent back to Germany for major overhaul.  But of course, if a units vehilce was not badly damaged, there would be no reason to replace it just for some small improvments especially with things so dire as they were in late 44 and into 45.

The problem is, if you want to do it accuratly, you need a photo of a vehicle in a certain place at a certain time to be sure.

With a unit like the Wiking which is was so badly mauled they needed to be re-equipped from scratch, it is possable that some of those vehicles could have come from units being withdrawn for a complete re-fit, and so they could still have had earlier vehicles even after there own had been destroyed.

Oops I didn't catch that. spell check threw that in its supposed to say it's a panther A model.

5th SS Panzer Division Wiking served in Poland to help put down the Warsaw Uprising in July, 1944. From there, it served in Budapest in January, 1945, escaping to Austria. The Division surrendered there.  And, I did find one photo ostensibly labelled "Wiking Panther A, Fall 1944-Winter 1945."  It was a B&W photo with the tank apparently in a coat of dark yellow.  However, the glacis plate  and the early cupola showed that the tank really was an Ausf. D.

However, it is entirely possible that there were "A's" in Wiking at the time.  Indeed, given the chaotic nature of the war at that point, I have even seen "D's" in service on the different fronts in late 1944-1945.  I wouldn't rule it out.

Bill Morrison

blackdog62

The only panther kit I have is a dragon in 1/35 and it's the American model so I'm always looking for them. I came across a pic of one fighting in the streets of Berlin it mentioned the Hitler Plaza was in the background not sure if that ss fought in berlin? 

Lol that's for sure I spend more time researching than building.

 

When you say American model, do you mean the ersatz. If so, these were G's.

Wiking wasn't in Berlin, it finished the war in Austria. It was the Nordland Div that fought in the capital.

I want to say that the Panthers that relieved Kowel were model G and even some D variants

Unless I'm building a paper panzer, I typically don't build anything without a photograph of two to prove authenticity.

Just my, but a good practice...

Eastern front was so brutall I read a lot of first hand accounts and the Korsun pocket was really horrible place to be. 

Some of the most brutal story's come out of those pockets. The Russians would just pound them with artillery mersally.

The Germans normally didn't get out of those pockets with there equipment it sounds like every thing was smashed. Especially later in the war.

The only panther kit I have is a dragon in 1/35 and it's the American model so I'm always looking for them. I came across a pic of one fighting in the streets of Berlin it mentioned the Hitler Plaza was in the background not sure if that ss fought in berlin? 

Lol that's for sure I spend more time researching than building.