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Tiger 1 confusion....

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Tiger 1 confusion....
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:04 PM
Hey everyone, I had a question about late production tiger 1's. This is really for tiger fans, but I saw a drawing of a late production tiger1 on a website once and it showed the tiger to have weird exausts. You know the exausts a tiger 2 has? Well this pic had tiger 2 style exausts on a late production tiger 1![:0] I've never heard of it, and maybe the guy's got his facts wrong (I wish I could show you the link, but the site is down for a couple days) but I was wondering if anyone had any confermation on a late war tiger 1 with tiger 2 exuasts. Thanks. BTW: anyone know anything about the panzer battle at villers-bocage? (if your in the d-day GB, you'l know what I'm talking about). Thanks!
  • Member since
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  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:31 PM
I can say I have never seen Tiger I Lates with Kingtiger exhausts before. I have no reference in my books either.

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 12:13 AM
This is the only weird late model tiger I exhaust I know of, this is from Saumur;



I have never seen this on any other vehicle. It is probably a modification done at Saumur, since many of the original parts are missing, especially if they drive this one around.
Want do you want to know about VB? I don't really want to write a book at the moment. Wink [;)] but I can probably answer your question.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 7:07 AM
Armormaster, I took a look at the pics in the D-Day thread. The Tiger that he was killed in isn't there, it's #007 and the turret was completely ripped off. It wasn't his panzer that he was killed in, he was filling in for Westerhagen who was ill.
I believe Shermanfreak's sig pic has the blown 007.
A very old thread has a very detailed account posted by Erock that has him destroyed by a Firefly.
I have an account by Wiiliam Fey that has eyewitnesses to a Typhoon attack.
The debate rages on...
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 9:08 AM
I have been looking in all of my 11 tiger books, and I can find no discriptions or pictures of a Tiger I with Tiger II exhausts. That doesn't mean it didn't happen it just means that I can't find any info on it.
The battle at Villers bocage ------ Ah yes........what do you want to know about it, its a long story.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:05 AM
I' ll give you the short version, but it will take a while for me to write it. So have patience.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:56 AM
In the morning on August 13th 1944, the 2nd company of the Schwere SS panzer abteilung ( 6 Tigers operational ) is assembled at hill 213 north-east of Villers-Bocage in a ravine south of the road Villers-Bocage -> Caen.

Not deployed, but marching in column, a detachment of the British 22nd Armoured brigade approaches hill 213 and stops there. Unnoticed this unit had made use of a gap between the 352nd Infanteriedivision and the Panzerlehrdivision.

Ahead of his company, which is not yet ready for action, Obersturmfûhrer Wittmann attacks the enemy ( A Sqn of 4th City of London Yeomanry and parts of the 1st battalion of the Rifle brigade ) using Tiger 222 ( Unterscharfûhrer Sowa's ) first he knocks out a Cromwell and a Firefly of A Sqn which already nearly reached hill 213. Afterwards, he advances parallel to the road towards Villers-Bocage. Passing by at a short distance he destroys the majority of the 1st Rifle Brigade ( 13 M3 halftracks, 3 Stuarts, 2 Sherman artillery observation tanks, the Daimler scout car of the intelligence officer and the M3 of the medical officer and more than one dozen Bren and Lloyd carriers ).

At the edge of the town he knocks out 3 of 4 Cromwells of the regimental headquater's platoon of the 4th CLY. Then he enters ( still alone! ) Villers-Bocage, pursued by the 4th Cromwell which intends to hit the Tiger in the rear. Inside the town Wittmann is stopped by tanks of B Sqn ( Including one Sherman Firefly ), turns around and rushes back the way he came On his way back he knocks out the Cromwell, whose 2 AP rounds, fired at a distance of 50 meters, fail to penetrate the Tiger.

After several hundred meters the tank breaks down from an AT gun hit damaging the left idler wheel. The crew bails out and leaves the tank, they sneak through to the command post of the Panzerlehrdivision at Orbois-Sermentot which starts the offensive action towards Villers-Bocage with 15 Panzer IV's.

The remaining Tigers of the 2nd company occupy positions east of Villers-Bocage ( south of the road ) and knock out 2 more Cromwells ( Unterscharfûhrer Sowa ) and 3 Shermans ( Obershcharfûhrer Brandt ). Approximately 230 British soldiers surrender and are taken prisoners.
The attack ( with 8 Tigers ) of the 1st company ( Hauptsturmfûhrer Môbius ) starts at 0800 hours also along N175 towards Villers-Bocage. 5 Cromwells standing farther north are damaged and abandoned by the crews. Several Pz IV's of the Panzerlehrdivision, positioned till this time at Parfouru-Sur Odon, join the attack.

2 Tigers and 1 Pz IV advance along the main road ( Rue Pasteur ). The rear Tiger 112 ( Oberscharfûhrer Ernst ) is knocked out by a Firefly of B Sqn through two corner windows. In a further thrust the Pz IV, after changing position, is knocked out by an AT gun. The leading Tiger 121 ( Obersturmfûhrer Lukasius ) is hit from the rear by a Firefly. Subsequently these tanks are set on fire by the British.

5 more Tigers thrust forward on the roads farther south. One Tiger is knocked out by an AT gun in the Rue Emile Samson. 2 more Tigers are immobilized by AT gunfire. Tiger 132 is in position on hill 213, 4 Tigers of the 1st company is in position south of Villers-Bocage, the 2nd company assembles again in the gorge parallel to N175. The 3rd company reaches Falaise. The casualties of the battalion on this day amount to 3 tank comanders and 7 more crew members. 3 Tigers of the 1st company are lost, whereas the British lost 26 tanks ( Shermans and Cromwells ), 14 M3's, and 8 Bren and 8 Lloyd carriers.

For this battle deciding action Wittmann is recommended for " Schwerter zum Ritterkreuz"
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 12:31 PM
So wittman was in tank 222 then? Was he in tank 205 on that day? I have a mag that has a painting of whitman's tiger and it's tank 205 and there's another painting of wittman's tiger 222 shooting the mmg from the anti-AC ring mg. Two paintings of wittman in different tigers. Weird. But thanks for the valueable info monrad!!!
  • Member since
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  • From: Utah - USA
Posted by wipw on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 12:39 PM
Wow, Thomas, that was great.

I've never seen so much research come out in the forum before. But maybe there's been a lot in some of the other forums.
Bill ========================================================== DML M4A2 Red Army ========================================================== ========================================================== -- There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". (Author unknown)
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 12:42 PM
Where he was before the battle,I don't know. Durring the battle he was in 222, which he had borrowed from Sowa.
I don't claim that this version is 100% correct. I've got it from Wolfgang Schneiders book " Tigers in combat II " and he is usualy right about this.
I have another version in the book " Panzers in Normandy - Then and now " its more or less the same but it doesn't mention any tank numbers.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:00 PM
I saw a color pallet in Tank Power #15 that shows the number of the tiger that Wittmann took into Villers-Bocage was 222. It also states that the tank was "borrowed"
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:22 PM
We've a discrepancy here...Wittmann and crew's remains were found in and about Tiger 007 in 1983 and were moved to La Cambe military cemetery. This is not disputed even though the facts of the destruction are. This info comes from three sources, The 101 SS physician, a SS combat historian who as a POW found all five 101 Tigers in '47 and a french citizen who inspected 007 immediately after destruction as well as witnessed the action.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:15 PM
Tank #222 was abandoned in Villers-Bocage after being hit. Wittmann took comand of # 007 right after the action in Villers-Bocage.
  • Member since
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  • From: Utah - USA
Posted by wipw on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:19 PM
How long after said battle in Viller-Bocage did Wittman meet his end?
Bill ========================================================== DML M4A2 Red Army ========================================================== ========================================================== -- There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". (Author unknown)
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:33 PM
Villers-Bocage was on the 13th or 14th of June and he died on August 8th.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 4:04 PM
Hence the date of MTD.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 4:22 PM
looks like stock tiger I except for the curved stacks... Its missing the caps that sit on top of little legs on top of the large round mufflers. I would have to go with the assumption that this is a museum mod to keep the rain out and keep the exhaust out of the crew compartment if they were driving it. But thats just a guess after all...

peace
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:12 PM
Armor Master!

Get yourself a copy of Ampersand Publishing's newly released "The Modeler's Guide to the Tiger Tank". This guide, 172 pages, is just loaded with info and pictures on the Tiger I and II. Lots of great photos of 13 different Tiger models plus info on building each one. If you don't have this you'd better get one while you can. I bought mine from GreatModels for $28.95. Sounds like alot of money, but after looking through it several times I think it's well worth it. A classic already as far as I'm concerned!

Glenn
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:12 PM
That's a good guess Kennethc, but the only tiger tank (original and not made from a t-34 or t-55) that still is in running condition today is bovington's tiger 131. It's an early and it doesn't have an exaust like that, but thanks for the input. I don't know why in the world the artist of that one painting I saw painted 205 on wittman's tiger, I guess it should be 222. BTW, does anyone know if wittman's gunner, bobby wool, was there at villers-bocage on June 13?
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:35 PM
Bobby Woll was a Tiger comander at the time, but his Tiger was being repaired, so Wittmann asked Woll if he could go along with him as a gunner, Wittmanns new gunner was left behind
  • Member since
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  • From: Northeast Washington State
Posted by JCon on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:45 PM
Great history lesson men, keep up the wonderful sharing of facts for those of us who haven't a clue concerning these battles! Thanks!
Happy Modeling, Joe Favorite Quote: It's what you learn after you know it all that counts!
  • Member since
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  • From: Upstate NY
Posted by Build22 on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:50 PM
Ausf & Moonrad,

I'm not a military expert but I believe Wittman's tank is hit and disabled but he is not killed.

It's in Osprey's D-Day #4 Gold and Juno Beaches it has an awesome account of what you are talking about with great graphics !


The scans are too big to blow-up - it is in Ron's gallery where you will get it to display bigger http://rongeorge.com/modules/Gallery/upload?page=4













See, was that cool or what ! They creamed "em !


Jim [IMG]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:19 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edog

Villers-Bocage was on the 13th or 14th of June and he died on August 8th.

Thanks edog, I got the date wrong. Its 13th of june NOT august.

QUOTE: Ausf & Moonrad,

I'm not a military expert but I believe Wittman's tank is hit and disabled but he is not killed


He is not killed in Villers Bocage, but he is killed on August 8th in Tiger 007.

QUOTE: Get yourself a copy of Ampersand Publishing's newly released "The Modeler's Guide to the Tiger Tank". This guide, 172 pages, is just loaded with info and pictures on the Tiger I and II. Lots of great photos of 13 different Tiger models plus info on building each one. If you don't have this you'd better get one while you can. I bought mine from GreatModels for $28.95. Sounds like alot of money, but after looking through it several times I think it's well worth it. A classic already as far as I'm concerned!

Glenn


I have that book and I posted a rewiew here some time ago. Its a great book here is a link to my rewiew http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18756
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Utah - USA
Posted by wipw on Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:16 AM
I posted a review a couple of months ago on it too. It was an early review. I'd only had it for a day or two. Having read through it much more now, all I can say is that it's a fantastic book! I can't wait for the new Sherman version to come out. Maybe I'll be able to figure out how to do an Allied tank properly!!
Bill ========================================================== DML M4A2 Red Army ========================================================== ========================================================== -- There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". (Author unknown)
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