A bit of a rant, looking for honest opinions

I agree and at the same time disagree. I believe that a model should be based on ones ability. A modeller who has 10+ years experience should be held at a higher standard then a modeller who is just starting out and without the resources of an airbrush, weathering material and the like. I for one will always post on how a model could have been better or what can be done the next time. I will never tell a modeller that their work is crap becuase I can see their skill level just by looking at the model. I agree that more people should post what they think could make the model better, this will in turn enable that person to become a better modeller. It definately has for me. As for historical accuracy, I am one who can really care less about it. I have shelves and shelves of reference books ranging from early Panzers to King Tigers to the M1A1 Abrams. I do at times put the time in to make sure my kit is accurate in some ways, but I am not going to count bolts. I much rather build a kit that is scale with a convincing paint scheme and weathering then one that isn't with every nut and bolt where it should be. World War II Armor gives you alot of leeway when it comes to markings, etc. because not every vehicle was photgraphed, or photographs are in black and white. Therefore there must be some creatvity on the modellers side.

Again, I agree that not every model should be given the "WOW" that is great, but in turn, you should take into account the modellers level of ability.

Cheers

Mo

I usually don't criticize unless the poster says they want it. But when asked I usually try to give an honest review and point out things that would make the build better and I won't point out things that were previously mentioned by other people. I only point out historical inaccuracies if I am reasonably sure my info is correct.

Hmm I think its ok to point out historical inaccuracies if the builder claims the model to be historical correct and you can see that it is not. But if the builder tells you "Hey I know its not correct, and I didn't intend it to be correct, I just wanted to have fun" then who am I to point out any inaccuracies.
If pics of a model is posted and the builder asks for criticism, I will give it. How ever if someone post pics of a model and just says "Here she is" and it looks like crap, then I don't post any answers, because I know that if I post an answer where I tell him what is wrong, I will be called a rivet counter. Like you said, if people posts pics of their models they'd better be prepaired for the criticism, or say that they don't want any criticism, but then there would be no reason to post the pics other than to show you skills or your lack of skills.

Remember, something that you build may look good to you and may not look good to others. If you are the type that gets anal and builds a kit to match the actual one (real or a photo) down to the rivets, then more power to you. But do not try to impose your standards onto the model building of others

There may be some youngster building a kit for the first time using various techniques he picked up here. It may not look great to you, but it could be the best kit he's ever done. Likewise some thirtysomething may have just returned to the hobby and his skills are just reawakening.

Some folks may not have the desire, skills or references to accurize. While I could probably afford to buy all the references out there on the King Tiger and most likely have the necessary skills to fully accurize the kit, I really don't have the desire to do it. Does this mean I shouldn't ever build a King Tiger kit out-of-box? I like the looks of the kit and will probably build one to match the boxart or some photo in a book. I doubt I'd even add zimmerit though. Does this lack of historical accuracy mean I should only stick to sci-fi kits and leave the KT on the shelf for serious modelers?

I'll never play for the NBA, maybe I should give up shooting hoops at lunchtime.

If I post a model for display, I don't necessarily want helpful hints or critiques. It is just the online version of showing my friends what I've done. I take kits to my local IPMS club and show them what I've been working on. It is just a hobby, I had fun building them and just want to share them with my friends.

Do I consider myself an expert modeler? No, not me. While I have won a trophy or two, I just like to build kits and don't always care for accuracy. Am I an Abrams expert? Some folks would consider me that, but I don't consider myself one. Does that mean I can't build an Abrams tank unless I fully accurize it taking photos and measurements off of the tanks I have here at work? Doubtful that I would waste my time doing that. There's plenty of more important things to worry about in life than whether or not I build a model accurately.

I agree with you fully. I didn't mean we should tell the guy it is a piece of crap. But as you said, tell them what to improve upon to make it better for the next one. Also, on the historical accuracy, I didn't mean rivet counting, but basic stuff like having a M151A2 jeep in WWII diorama or having an M240 MG on a WWII vehicle, or having figures in modern BDUs in a Vietnam diorama. Glaring historical inaccuracies are what I am talking about. I am not a rivet counter either. If the vehicle looks like a vehicle from the time period and looks accurately painted an weatherd, it looks good to me. I will correct simple things to improve a kit, but wont start replacing bolts and rivets because the picture in the referance book shows 5 bolts in different positions than the 4 on the kit. Sorry for more ranting.

Personally, I have no problems with constructive criticisim - actually, it's the type of criticisim I prefer considering my background and business. It's also the only way I'll be able to make better models. But, this is where you have to tread carefully, not everyone comes from a background where crit's are a daily occurence and most personalities are not calloused enough to accept it and say "k, just that one's opinion" and shrug it off. Then again, alot has to do with the way the crit was delivered and interpeted by the end user. Can't see facial expressions nor speech inflections through a written statement

This is just a hobby to most. Encouragement is the best likely course to save ego's.
There is also the fact that not all are up to the same standards or skill level - so that also has to be taken into account

As for historical accuracy: well, not everyone is going to take the time for those minute differences and added items. Nor is everyone going to go out and find those AM kits (which as you well know can cost more than twice what the kit does) You might as well be writing the manufactuer's to discuss the accuracy issues in thier molds. I think it boils down to wether or not you want a representation or historical accuracy. To the casual observer, a representation is more than acceptible.

In the long run, I stand in awe for the projects people do just for the fact that they tried.

p.s. - all the above posts came in as I was formulating this responce - so feel free and disreguard as necessary.

Every person is different in ability and what they think looks good. What I may consider excellent work someone else may consider it to be a beginner level work because it is not the right shade of paint or is a little to big for the scale it is to be. When you start to look at military vehicles no two are alike. The motorpools here at work have multiple vehicles of the same design but if you look closely at them all they are different in someway shape or form. Ladies and gentlemen we do build models to our own standards. Bottom line is as long as you like your work it does not matter what anyone else thinks.

I agree and disagree as well. Yes, we all sound like we have been hypnotised into liking everything. Perhaps it comes from years of hearing our parents say "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." The tough thing is someone can type something and if 5 people read it, they all can get a different meaning. Therefore, some people (me included) may not like to point out inacccuracies or make suggestions because they may be interpreted to mean "that tank sucks" or be taken to be condescending and not constructive criticism. You never know who might take a criticism to heart and use it to improve their next model and who will get themselves a rifle, climb someplace high and alternate shooting and muttering "so my Sherman should have been a lighter shade of green, huh?"

Well, when I get around to posting pictures, please be brutally honest. Nothing worse than sunshine blown up one's skirt (or pantleg). There will always be someone better than yourself. Imagine how stagnant hobbies would become if everyone stayed at the same level. At the same time, I don't think we should call someone's work crap. That's just mean. Maybe Do-Do or something!! I like Moses' look on the subject, take into consideration a person's age and skill level and judge accordingly.

A newbie's 2 cents.

My take is like this;When I went to high school I had a teacher who taught me that there is no such thing as constructive criticism.The only way to show criticism is to get down in the drit to say is to get down in the drit with him and to show by exsample.This gos with the old saying that you can catch more flys with honey then with vinager.I use to train drivers on the open road and when they were criticized a lot for a nother trainner they had,they would lose all confidense in themsefieves.This would restult in them flunking there test to move on.I would take these students and build there esteem back up.When they made a mistake I would ask them what they just did and how this could be stopped.They would tell me and would restult in them not doing it again.Also when they did something right I would ask them if they were happy with it and if they thought they could do better.This is the same attuide that is foster on this forum esspceailly when we see others works.I know from seeing some of these works that I can ask myself if I can do better.Then I can ask for your opinions and try something new to enhance my modeling.Each and everyone of us does better when we see the exsamples that are layed before us.This serves to better our skills and fosters confidence in us to do something better on the next kit.You can also see when we make a mistake,it is the one who makes the mistake asking for advise to fix the problem.So no I do not think we should criticize each other unless we ask for it.Digger

I haven't been here all that long but in my short tenure, I've seen several instances of constructive critique and suggestions at work. Everyone sees different things when they look at a model. The beauty of the hobby is that every piece is individualized by the maker's ability and inclination on how far they go with it. I haven't seen any glaring errors glossed over by false praise and feel that an honest evaluation is given by those who post here. As an example, a recent post about an M113 I believe showed incorrect track sag and it was pointed out and corrected by the author without any issue.

Different people have different concepts of what constitutes a "great" model and the skill is evident in the results as mentioned above. I don't consider myself to be a master, far from it, and I learn a lot just by seeing how others approach their subjects and apply their different techniques. The friendly atmosphere of encouragement that exists here is a good thing, I'd hate to see that damaged or turn people away because of negativity. It takes a lot of courage to post that first set of pics for public display for most people just as ordinary human nature.

As someone once mentioned, we are not assemblers of plastic kits but are scale modelers. Some are willing to take the level of detail and accuracy to the maximum possible, others are content to build accurate enough representations and leave it at that. Both groups enjoy their work and the hobby in their own way and, in turn, wish to share that work here with other enthusiasts. It would be a shame to see only pics that meet the gold standard and required a small fortune in add ons to achieve displayed because of negative feedback.

The Internet grants a certain amount of anonymity to people and this in turn removes some of the nuance and individuality of interaction. Criticism couched as suggestions for improvement are a good thing but it's a fine line between being helpful and harsh.

I've got a thick skin but I don't assume the same is true of everyone else that I encounter here or anywhere else on line.

That's my $0.02 on this matter.

There are two sides to how I feel about this.
Personally, I'm a big boy who has made an okay living through various art fields. Most of the time I will ask for criticism and received it, serious stuff and it's helped. Five people telling me that 'the whitewash doesn't come across well' is infinitely more valuable than 25 guys saying 'looks great!' But again, I'm looking for it.
The other side is I like to post some stuff just for the fun of it and to share. If it's criticized it doesn't bother me in the least, but If someone who is obviously very proud of what they just built posts a pic and is heavily critiqued, I think the only accomplishment would be to discourage. Not everyone has the time, ability, equipment, supplies and money for kits to turn out fantastic builds every time.
And who's to say what standard one should be held to. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I happen to be sitting on equipment most people would never see, moldmaking material for anything you could imagine, kilns, welding gear plus some material from almost every form of artwork out there. Now, the few pieces I've finished recently from a hiatus of over 25 years come with a wide backround and shouldn't be compared to what some else has done in their first year. Nor should they be compared to your builds, Gino.
Sharing and encouragement is what builds a community. That might be clouded by raising to little boys but that's where I am right now.
If an accomplished builder is asking or both barrels, I let 'em have it.
Otherwise, I going to be supportive.

I'm a bit of a fence sitter on this one.

Improvement in one's skill at anything, revolves around identifying deficiencies and correcting them. In that sense, I agree that positive criticism is warranted.

The trick is that wording criticism positively can be difficult. This difficulty I think may heightened by the far reaching audience. In my experience, different people can react far differently to the same level of criticism.

Another issue, is that we're naturally looking at photos, most likely taken by amateurs, rather than the actual item. Again, speaking from my own experience with Mad Tiger Day, the photos of my Tiger don't necessarily look exactly like the model as seen in real life under normal lighting, at least in terms of color and finish. I assume this problem is not exclusive to myself, so to criticize color and finish may well be misleading. There have been a few photos that I have seen in which certain aspects of the color seemed wrong, but since I'm not looking at the actual model, I haven't felt that I could assert that criticism.

Yes, there are some models that get posted that would not live up to my standards in a million years. At the same time, I didn’t build them and obviously the builders are proud enough of them to post pictures. I don’t see how telling someone their models sucks is going to help them in any way. At the same time, simply saying “great job” is not going to help either.

I try to follow a simple rule when commenting on peoples models (emphasis on the try):

• Try point out something that they did well. Then point out something that they can work on for next time.

I think that HeavyArty has brought up a good point here and after all I thought we were here to learn something. Personally, I would love to hear all the possible criticisms that anyone has to offer because even though I may not agree with, or care about 90% of them, there may be one or two points that I didn’t think of.

Just my $0.02

I agree with those above who have stated that if criticism is not asked for, I don't give it.

From my own point of view, I usually ask for suggestions/comments and would much rather get 15 comments with constructive criticism than 2 "looks good" comments. Don't get me wrong, getting a bunch of atta-boys is great for the ego, but they don't do much in the way of helping me discover new/better ways to build models.

Enjoy your modeling...

Well, i am a junior modeler. I have been building models for 5 years. It really does help to give criticism, but helpful. Not like "you are a disgrace to modelers, die" More like, Hey tankbuild, your airbrushing has improved, but shoot at a lower psi. or the weathering is great but try this or that. Trust me if you dont get critisised then you dont improve.

definitely an interesting discussion.
i think i have done my share of 'good jobs' and 'thanks for posting'.
i know from being a 'returned to modeling as a 30 something' that there is a huge range of skills here. i have tried to point out flaws when the poster has asked
for criticism, but sometimes i can't see any!
that could be my own inexperience or the camera favoring them.
when i do find things, i try to word it 'gently'.

posting pics here is funny for those of us who are trying to get up to average.
i want my stuff to be seen. i have no modeling friends where i live and few people
to show my builds to. and it takes me a good long while to finish most of my stuff,
so i am inordinately proud of what i have finished. not because it is contest quality,
but because i have soldiered on to the end.

i posted my razorback on the a/c side. to me, the worst part of it was that the @#$%!
gunsight was still on the bench, painted & ready to install. sadly, the canopy was glued on. but, i had finished the kit, used BMF for the first time, and followed a "schedule"
that allowed me to build the kit simultaneously w/ my friend who lives 350+ miles away.
so, despite the gunsight, and a decal on the tail that did not quite go straight, i was, and am, proud as heck. would i put it in a contest? never. would i 'show it off' here? you bet! do i want criticism? yes, in fact. as long as it's not abt the gunsight. i am all too aware of that point.

i agree that we should not get carried away w/ praise, especially false praise.
but i feel that we can at least acknowlege the effort.
it must be pretty depressing to put up pictures, and see that 100 people looked at your post and only a few could even say 'thanks'.

on the accuracy, i agree w/ Gino on the major anomolies (sp?) stuff in the wrong era, etc.
i am fine w/ telling someone that the jack was never mounted on the commander's hatch on a Panther.
but unless someone asks specifically, i would not bother to wonder if turret #314 was present in 1942 in the Steppes w/ a paricualar unit or if that number was only seen on an 8 Rad in Egypt.

i dunno, they keep interrupting me (i'm at the office) and i have lost my point, if any.
and i have to go home!

I am not comfortable with giving criticism over the internet, really. Photography varies wildly, and a lot can be said for doing something face to face. I will try to help, if someone asks about weathering etc., but unless I am sure someone will understand the motives behind it, I don't pick on things. I prefer to pick out something I like, and make a point of that, to avoid a generic response. Not everyone feels they come from a skill level that should be doing a lot of criticism, either (me included).

I ask for comments, and I am rather thickskinned, but my photography rarely shows up the problem areas in my models that I need to improve. I am a tough critic of my own work though, so I am more likely to post a quetion or research how to do it better. The main point is to share my work, as I love to look at other's work. We only have one comp a year here, and I have never been. I will be entering a few things this year, and will expect more constructive criticism there, where me and my models have no where to hide.

i have a great number of great builds, awesome, cool, nicely done, etc ... comments, but something that i try to remember is that the person who built the subject has taken the time to put this together. and for that they are entitled to a good job. however if they put a m1 in a ww2 scene with a king tiger red flags go up and i wonder what the builder was doing. i have my share of builds that are less than perfect, read p-38j for dday aka the baked potatoe, and i posted to do two things. first to gain a sence of closure and second to employ others to critique and review my skills. sometimes i may not go with suggestions but they are always in the back of my mind for the next one. of course then there are the bonehead plays such as puting the us star on wrong. in each case i have been advised of the problem and either corrected or improved upon the advice.

joe

Hard to add anything to this thread. I agree with alot of Rob, Bill and Eric's statements. I'm as guilty as most with the looks good overkill, but sometimes it's hard to elaborate. I feel it's rightful to the builder and the forum to be as truthful with one another. I don't believe in dissing anything, because we all know how much time and so on it takes to put some of these kits together. I believe it is also positive to the builder to point out the good aspects as well as the negative.

Historical aspects have their merits and their pitfalls. I think we all try to do as accurate job as possible, but like someone said earlier, maybe they don't care, have the time, or the expertise to accomplish all the details that another member might be a stickler on going precisiously according to the book. Historical accuracy while important to me, can take the fun out a build. The level of expertise in the forums exceeded my expectations when I joined and now I fear will be shot down in shame by the forum for using the incorrect this and that, or painting the the wrong camoflauge. Still I'm going to do my best and be happy with what I build.

I checked out a model a while back and it was very well done, but had a glaring problem which I mentioned in my post along with saying how great it looked overall. The builder's response was polite, but clear, he didn't want to hear it. So now I keep my comments to "great job" etc. If there's something really wrong, I keep my yap shut and don't post at all. On the other hand there are occasions when the one doing the critique is wrong, or rather mis-informed. So I try not to say anything unless I'm sure about it, or I put a qualifier with it (I think, I'm not sure) etc.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. We evaluate things based on our own standards and skill levels. Experts most of the time can see a lot of errors in another member's works while those who are just learning could barely see them.

I always appreciate those who praise and point out errors in my works. Posting pictures of ones work here means subjecting them to scrutiny. One should be ready for anything.

But I cannot say whether a member is lying (or not) when he makes a good remark on another's work. Emotions are very hard to percieve through written posts alone.

Not to beat this thing til it's dead but,

Thing is - I don't think that's what this forum is about. There are some tremendously skilled modelers but the majority of people here are not accuracy buffs or hard core plastic maniacs.

Tell you the truth - that's why I am here

And thats probably why alot of people are here. I know I have more to learn about all aspects of military modeling - history, variants, and techniques. I think the majority of the people are here for information exchange and a chance to share some experiences with people with similiar interests

I know Aromorama has a particular part of their forum - specificly for lambasting ( well, scrutinizing) modelers efforts for the purpose of improvement. (never really seen anyone "open-up" on any one) Personally - I don't think that would work here.



And truth be told - there is never a good experience when someone says "no, really be completely honest"

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rob Gronovius ...........I'll never play for the NBA, maybe I should give up shooting hoops at lunchtime........

Yeah, but didn't you play four years at U-Conn

QUOTE: Originally posted by Build22 And thats probably why alot of people are here. I know I have more to learn about all aspects of military modeling - history, variants, and techniques. I think the majority of the people are here for information exchange and a chance to share some experiences with people with similiar interests

Amen Jim. That fits me pretty good. I'm just blown out of the water by how much information these guys contain. Some of these guys are walking manuals. I mean this as a compliment of course.

QUOTE: Originally posted by HeavyArty My feeling is that if you are building an actual vehicle that existed in history, it should be historically accurate.

I have asked myself this same question too. This model or dio isn't so great, so why's everyone hailing it and making it sound awsome? (eventually I find myself doing the same thing- telling the member that it's so awsome). But I got something to say about this that might be a little conflicting. I agree with the above quote. We are here to model history, whether horrible (violent dios [blood] done with taste) or great (a liberation dio of a town being taken from nazi control). When I first started modeling my goal was to have fun and play with the model tanks and planes I built. But as I got better at it my goal changed to making models not for play, but for historical accuracy and show. When my goal was to play with my models I built, they were crappy. I put them together in usually one day and they didn't turn out great at all. I was in a rush to show it to my parents and play with the plane I just built. But when my goal became historical accuracy I began to take way more time on models and I began to learn new techniques and just got better at it and took the hobby more seriously. Then my models got better. So for some of us, we are used to turning out high quality, high effort models, but for some members their just getting through that "shift" from built in a day to built with a lot of work. I'll tell you right now, if I had the camera and all the technology back then when I was making crappy one-day models and if I was a member to finescale, not only would I want to show my parents what I did, I'd want to show the people I know online that do the same thing as me. Here at the FSM community, there's always a cheerful morale around. I heard on many occasions that newbies are so fascinated at how nice and clean the forums are. I couldn't shut someone's model down just because they didn't have the experience or years of models like us. Their excited at what they've done and they want to share it. I just couldn't tell them their models aren't the best, because at the skill level I'm at the model is crappy, but to a newbie in the hobby, it would probably look awsome. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I'm not saying sugar coat everything you say, but give compliments on a scale of skill. Thats what I do. If the modeler has been modeling for years and pulls out something amazing, I'm going to look for microscopic errors and historical accuracy. But if the modeler is sharing something he's happy of and worked all day on, it may not look much to you, but it's a lot to them. And soon they'll catch on and learn all the techniques like us and get years under their belts and then they'll be turning out awsome models. Nobody had to tell me my models looked like crapp. Over time what I thought was awsome would eventually become "wow, I can't believe I built this cruddy thing, I used to think it was a great model!" And maybe it's not aparent to them at the time, but the will relize their mistakes and will get better overtime as long as they pursue it. So I try not to be rough on the newbies, because they'll relize what I was going to tell them and they will get better. So I try to not be too hard on the rookies and I try to critique based off of skill, because in the end they'll get it eventually and start turning out awsome models. It just takes time.
Thanks for listening to all my rambling on this. Thats just my

Just my two cents but...and this may stir some flies, but...I think a lot of people post the "looks great" or "nice model" just to raise their post numbers. I think it's an ego thing.

I consider myself an up-and-coming (minor league if you will) and I by no means am talented enought to levy a n honest evaluation. There are a lot of modelers in this forum that are a level I would consider experts and value thier critisim. I would rather recieve 2 crtical reviews from talented modelers with hard core fixes, than 25 "nice models", again just my 2 cents!

Paragraphs could be neater, text font a liitle more weathered, hue is a little out,
perhaps a little more spell check, otherwise ,

looks great!

I wuz kinda wonderin' if this here thread shouldn't mosey on over to the "General Discussion" forum.

It's an interestin' red.

I can consider myself competent to criticiize in only one subject and that is US Navy ships because I am immersed in the subject every day. I will offer criticism in that subject only. If I see something I like, I will give the builder an atta-boy. If I don't feel like I'm qualified to judge but still don't like the subject, I will stay mute and let the experts have their say. I still prefer armor to all other subjects but don't critique other armor builders because I don't feel my knowledge is adequate to do so.