A bit of a rant, looking for honest opinions

I haven't responded to this, but thought I might as well add my take on how I see these posts of images.

Since this is just for fun, and the fun is in seeing how nice a kit yoi get out of your efforts, if a guy just posts his picture of the kit saying "look what I did," I'm going to say great, and my comment is going to be completely honest -- it IS great. He built a kit! More than I can usually get my sorry butt to do. And he shared it with us! That also is great. He didn't have to bother.

If the guy asks for comments or critiques, I usually won't give them unless I think of something really pertinent, particularly if the kit is already done, because they it's too late. And even if I do give a suggestilon, I 'll try to do it as gently and constructively as possible.

I'v heard of what the atmosphere can be like at the hobby events where kits are on display and there's nothing but snickering and negativity unless each bolt is in place and the zimmerit is spaced just so and you've done the right chassis number. Let's leave that stuff at the door.

That said, HeavyArty, I know where you are coming from. You are a top tier builder and you don't want to be getting "great" comments just like every other guy (like me) who can barely glue two pieces together without putting his eye out. I try to really let my regard be known for the extra fine job that expert modelers like you do.

Hmm, with the above being said, this really is an interesting conversation. J-Hulk, as always, you bring up very insightful points, however, Drew I do tend to agree with you. The fact that there are so many of us here, in a relativaly free and unclassified environment (in the sense that all you see is typed text ;) makes it difficult to post a model and receive any kind of criticism.
I do really like the idea of having differing posting badges indicating whether feedback is appropriate.

Hmm. This is an interesting topic. I personally have no real interest in either giving or receiving criticism. I know what I've done and I know what my standards are. I look at other people's builds and enjoy the variety of subjects and skill levels. I get ideas of what I'd like to do, and what I want to avoid doing.

A case in point: I'm not much into weathering my models for a variety of reasons. Some airplane models I see look way too dirty for my taste. However, if somebody spends hours, weeks, months, working on a plane and posts photos of it, is it really their problem that the model doesn't meet my standards?

Of course not.

Conversely, if I post photos of my builds, and somebody feels that it is their responsibility to set me straight, well . . . I'm glad I gave that person something to think about for a while.

However, if I post a photo of my build and say something like, "Hey, here's my build. How do you guys and gals do to avoid the silvering that showed up in my decals?" Then some constructive criticism would go a long way.

Just some thoughts,

I do consider myself a rookie, so I'll be breif.

I value constructive critism, but critiquing is really only constructive as long tact is used. If tact is ignored, the modeler offering his work up for display may take it more as an assault on is work. That may be discouraging for that modeler, and he may not want to participate in the forum. That would be the forum's loss. Even the least experienced modeler can be a wealth of information.

Great discussion.
I would point out that one of the things I liked best when I started visiting this forum...compared to experiences with assorted clubs, organizations and modeling groups, over the years...is that 99% of the comment on pretty much any subject is POSITIVE. That doesn't mean blowing sunshine. or ignoring perceived faults; it means sharing the enjoyment of the hobby that brought us all here to begin with, in a positive way.
If someone asks for criticism, it's only fair to offer it, and to share the benefit of whatever experience one has. The body of experience represented in this forum, in any category, is pretty awesome. That's why it's a valuable resource.

I can sort of understand where you're comming from on this one. And I do post simple comments, usually not criticizing or suggesting anything at all. However, that's just the point. I don't think most people make and post models here to have someone tell them that they're not that great. Maybe they're just looking to share their build, and talk a little of it. But personally, I think we should all just say as we feel about the model, constructively, without any hurtful intentions, and those posting should be willing to consider said advice.

What I have seen often on forums and other groups(ANY) many people will give what they thing is constructive criticism, but in reality they are often voicing their own opinions, likes and dislikes.

I for one enjoy building kits for the fun of it, not too worried if the colour is a shade off, rivets are the wrong number, etc. I am for the overal finished look and thus often prefer feedback/criticism from non-modelers rather than my peers.

Every human has a sense of what is right or wrong and sometimes looking at a finished model/Diorama one gets a feeling of "wrong" or "weird", as the modeler often was more concernced with the small details rather than the overal impression of the finished product.

Well, I think modelling should be fun. Sometimes I run into self proclaimed " Experts" , who tend to be annoying. Some people can model, for 20 years, and still have difficulty with some aspects of it. ( I.E. Photo etched parts , I'm one!) If a person , wants me to evaluate his completed model , I tell him 3 areas of improvement , then tell him 3 good points , of his model. The first bit , I tell him HOW to improve ( Most Important) The last bit makes him realize he has potential, and makes him willing to stick with the hobby , and enjoy it. The method worked well , in the Army , when I was assessing troops , in Battle School. Brief , to the point , but doesn't make him/her want to " Quit".
Frank
" PERSEVERANCE"

This is supposed to be a fun hobby ,and thats what it has always been to me , ever since I was kid making WW2 bombers and painting them and flying them around my yard . I do an aftermarket superproject every now and then because I like to see how much of that PE I can tolerate , it is good patience therapy for me , because I have had problems with that in the past There are some modelers that can take a kit OOB and make it look better than one that has $200 AM parts added ! None of us can expect a novice modeler of any age to do a kit that a 20 year vet could do , however if it looks good to you and it was the best job you could do , well it is great ! Your next will be better should you choose to do one , and the next after , and so on . We all know it takes years of practice and study to do what is indeed a true modeling masterpiece , there is much more to this than glue and plastic and paint . So I say practice and have fun , it is a great escape from reality and is much more harmless than some others hobbies !

How do you know when a hobby is starting to stare at it's navel? When it starts offering criticism of the criticism.

I use the following rules for offering comments in real life, and I think they apply here to.

1. If the author posts pics with no solicitation of criticism, or with a comment like, "look what I have done", then it is obvious they are simply sharing their work and not looking for criticism. Under those circumstances I follow the maxim that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. On the other hand, don't manufacture false praise either. If you see something you honestly do like, then say so. Otherwise, just remain silent. If you consistently find looking at a certain author's work is a waste of your time, just ignore their topics in the future.

2. If the author asks for criticism, then I think it is legitimate to offer suggestions if you can be constructive and specific. I manage people at work, and I find that it's much more effective to tell people how to do something right than it is to only tell them what they did wrong. For instance, "That ECM pod is wrong for that variant" is a lot less effective than, "The A-300 Armadillo used the XYZ pod. Rudy's Resin makes a good one."

Finally, not to start a long discussion, but none of us ever builds a truly accurate representation of the 1:1 subject. We have evolved conventional inaccuracies that improve the illusion that the little plastic bit closely resembles the original. For example, raised or scribed panel lines on aircraft certainly help make the model look lifelike, but they are wildly inaccurate compared to the actual aircraft. In addition, I have noticed weathering techniques, simulated corrosion, and many other nuances used by some of the luminaries in this hobby that are really inaccurate compared to the original, but produce a very realistic effect. Another example is lightening paint for distance - an absolute exact match for paint color frequently doesn't look quite right. The criticism I sometimes see offered is really not a criticism of accuracy or effect, but a criticism that the builder has failed to follow the conventional inaccuracies.

Even over the internet the personality of the author comes through. There are a couple of jerks lurking, but the vast majority of people who post here offer good-natured and constructive criticism. As soon as I get a digital camera, I will expect and welcome my share of the abuse!

Guys, Thanks for all the replies. I didn't expect this much buz over it. It looks like we are about 50-50 split on giving constructive criticism here. I will continue to do so. So if you don't want to have your model criticized, (calm down out there, I mean good and bad points with suggestions to make it better), don't post photos of them. I won't ever tell anyone there model is a piece of crap, they all have redeaming qualities. On the same not, I don't think we should continue the "Looks Great" only comments. It doesn't give anyone any help on making their models better. Thanks for all the replies.

I don't think you are being silly J-Hulk at all. As a case in point, check the last couple of threads posted with pics in them, the authors specifically asked for comments/improvements suggestions and received them. They weren't cruel or harsh but delivered honestly. I do believe that the more eyes that look at a subject, particularly a "fresh" look by someone other than me the builder, often reveals a lot. "Non-expert" observers such as your girlfriend will often see things quite differently and have valueable insight.

I take pictures of my kits on a regular basis when I think I've finished a particular point and look at them on my flat screen monitor at 1600x1200 and the camera does not lie. I find a lot of things that way and the same is true here. The key is a good quality picture and that often complicates things here on the 'net.

One thing I learned in my tenure as a public school educator was to use the "sandwich" approach when offering a critique. One positive note, followed by negative or improvement area, followed by a positive note. Human nature often focuses on the negative only but every build has positives that also need to be pointed out.

This is a healthy debate and it's good to see the input from various perspectives. My take is that everyone here is interested in furthering their knowledge, skills, and interactions in this hobby and that's what makes this community attractive to me at any rate.

I just realized after reading the last couple of posts that I inadvertantly left something very important out of my replies: when offering constructive criticism (even when specifically requested), it is very important to accentuate the positive, too, for all the reasons in the previous posts. I kind of took that for granted, but maybe it's not, so here it is.

Sure, we have to be supportive of our fellow modelers (of all levels) to help keep the hobby alive (plus it's just plain nice, too!), but I still believe the majority of people here at FSM came here in the first place to learn about the hobby, and improve their skills to their desired level (or maybe I'm naive? Or just plain dumb?). Towards that end, I feel that constructive criticism in addition to well-deserved praise are essential to that growth.

Perhaps we should come up with some badges to use when posting pix...

Like:
"Positive Comments Only, Please!"
or
"Give it to Me Straight, Doc! I Can Take It!"

To be honest, this thread is kinda making me nervous about posting any constructive comments at all...what to do, what to do...

I suppose my first reply to a pic could be, "Looks good! Would you like any constructive criticism? Not that I can see anything at this particular moment that needs addressing on your fine build, of course, but you know... just for future reference!" and wait for a reply.

Yeah, I know, I'm being silly. Or am I...

May as well chime in here...

If criticism is asked for, then honest opinions of their work is deserved. If someone just wants to show off their latest, and perhaps greatest, build, then there's nothing wrong with an atta-boy. Who is anyone to really judge someone else's work? There is only one opinion that truly matters, your own. If you are happy with what you've done, then you are enjoying our hobby. I know there are things I can do better and I learn from all of you here in these forums as I read and look at others posts, and that can only help me get better at what I love to do. But there are those self appointed experts out there that can really put a damper on the joy of building by holding to the "one true path" of total accuracy in all things at all times down to colors, rivets, etc... That's my opinion, and your mileage may vary...

As a former police field training officer, I found I got better results and turned out better probationers with the *mentor/coach* approach vs the *tough taskmaster* approach. I believe this also applies to this hobby, bearing in mind that it is just that, a HOBBY. By no stretch of the imagination am I of the skill/detail level that would win even an honorable mention at an IPMS show/competition, nor am I a beginner. I remain in the hobby because building for me is theraputic and fun. If you post pics of your work be ready to take some hits because although I think the mentors on this board outnumber the taskmasters, they are out there and will tear you a new one. All that will do, especially to the younger/beginners, is drive them out of the hobby. Skill levels vary, experience levels vary, and recourses arent as readily available to some as to others. Some of us are *rivet counters*, some of us are happy *out of the box*. I want to see ALL levels posted by proud builders. If I only gave my boots negative reinforcement, then when we got in our next situation, they would be more worried about me jumping on them for their next mistake than thinking about what theyre doing. In a police car, thats what can get you killed. In this hobby, thats what can kill your enthusiasm. By all means criticize (if solicited), but also tell em what they did right. Long post, forgive me. Just MHO.

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman It's meant to be fun, not agonizing.

Absolutely, T-Man!

But I don't think Gino or anyone else here meant that we should heap agony on our fellow modelers over their builds, just that we should be honest in our observations, especially when criticism is specifically requested (I haven't conducted extensive research on this subject, but it seems to me that most pic posts include the phrase "So, tell me what you think!" somewhere in the text).

As far as being "qualified" to offer constructive criticism on a build, I believe that anyone who can see the screen is qualified to offer an opinion. My lovely girlfriend, who knows very little about armor or modeling in general, once looked at my BMP-3 and asked, "is that wrinkly bag on the gun supposed to be shiny? Nothing else is shiny." I looked to were she was pointing, and indeed, the mantlet cover had gained somewhat of a sheen, which I fixed. Thanks, Honey!

The point is, anybody is qualified to offer an opinion, regardless of their knowledge or experience.

On the other hand, perhaps I am just plain wrong in thinking that most people want to hear constructive criticism when they post pix of their models. I'm so eager to hear it about my stuff that it might be a bit simple-minded of me to assume that everybody else does, too.

Perhaps I should only offer my honest opinion when I see ""So, tell me what you think!" in the post!

let me say this. my children are getting into building models. my sons have taken an interest in a/c and they have started three kits each. note they have started, not finished. i work with them on what to do and what not to do. yet when they show me what they have done i look at it and make an honest judgement of how they did, i also try to make sure i dont kill their budding interest in the hobby i have such a passion for.

how do i do that. first i let them know the good things. if something is very good i let them know. i also judge their mood if they cant take the criticism i dont hassle them with what they could do better.

the forums are similar to that. i dont have a personal interest in any of the builds posted here, but i also dont have the ability to judge the mood of the member. what i can do is to let them know that they have support here. whether i choose to praise or to comment on something else i must support them in this hobby i have a passion for.

finally many of the builds i have commented on are from those i consider to be masters of this hobby. some build for a living. who am i to tell these masters that they didnt use the right color on something i know very little about. i base my comments on what i know.

sorry for the long post again but it was something i needed to say.

joe

While we all talk about our "work" in this hobby, when the enjoyment factor goes away it becomes drudgery. People find that enjoyment in many ways. I get a lot of enjoyment from this hobby vicariously...by seeing the work of others displayed with pride at their accomplishment.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dwight Ta-ala QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman Does anyone stop to think..."Do I take the hobby TOO seriously?" It's meant to be fun, not agonizing. Or are we spending too much time on this forum, Tigerman? (note this joke is between Me and Tigerman only...lol)

Well look for yourself. I'd say yes.

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman Does anyone stop to think..."Do I take the hobby TOO seriously?" It's meant to be fun, not agonizing.

Or are we spending too much time on this forum, Tigerman?



(note this joke is between Me and Tigerman only...lol)

Does anyone stop to think..."Do I take the hobby TOO seriously?" It's meant to be fun, not agonizing.

Dan, Ed and Duke,

Good points there my friends.

As an OOB modeler who don't have the budget to spend for tons of references, AM, PE and even materials for scratchbuilding...I can only hope to build a very accurate model. In fact I have completed almost 40+ models but not a single one can be considered accurate or historically correct..

I build because I am having fun in building. I don't think I can make something really accurate or perfect to win some awards or something...but I guess it doesn't matter. That's not what I am (or perhaps some of us here, too) are building for.

Does this make me or others who can't (or do not really plan to) make an accurate model a lesser type of modeler?

We have to understand that people build for different purposes. And unless that modeler really asks for a detailed scrutiny of his model...we should be careful with our comments. Talking to somebody on the net is very hard as we can hardly show emotions or much so express our sincere intentions. Words alone cannot fully express our intentions. Add to that the fact that this is an international forum where members may not be able to understand some english words in their simpliest context.

We have to be careful...

A sincere and honest comment from a member could mean a very devastating criticism to another.

Finally...when we come to a point when we no longer feel the joy of building because of inaccuracies and the like, or when all we see in others (or even ours) models are the flaws and errors...

Then I think that is the time when we try to reorient ourselves to the meaning of "a hobby".

Whether one's model is crap or perfect, it doesn't matter as long as he is having fun and relaxation with it...while building it and by looking at it after completing it.

Gino has a definate point , it is ok to encourage the younger modelers on their builds , which we all should do , and give constructive criticism to us older modelers , which I expect on my disasters here , if there is something wrong with my build , by all means tell me before I paint it ( case in point with my marder III , one of my fellow modelers pointed out I had the folding seats on the wrong side , and thus would open backwards , away from the action so to speak , I looked at it for months and did not catch that , thanks to that comment I saved myself much embarrassment should I have entered it in contest ) Us older guys want the truth to make us better modelers , we all can agree with that ! We learn from mistakes and sometimes a nuetral eye also helps out !

I am one of those who has been building consistently for over 30 years. After all this time, it would be expected that I'd be a master modeler who builds the ultimate kits all the time! Newsflash: I am not. I actually develop my skills more slowly than most people. I still consider myself a Novice modeler, even though my club has encouraged me to enter all my builds in the Advanced catagory and I have won a few awards in that catagory. Here on the Forums however, when I post pictures of my work, I still would like to hear constructive comments (read: constructive criticism) that will help me improve my work. I get them from my fellow club members, and I appreciate them for it. Imay not use the offered techniques right away, but eventually, I will.

I am also one of those who like to be as accurate as possible within the bounds of the existing kit pieces, or with something that may be simple to scratchbuild. I don't have a massive research library, nor do I look at 100's of pictures to get a very small something 'exactly right' (especially when working in Braille Scale![:0]) I don't go out buying photoetch or resin AM parts, particularly if the parts will end up costing more than the model is worth. That's just me, yet I have a high respect and admiration for those who have the budgets and the skills to use those parts to make outstanding kits.

Nobody so far has called any of my work 'crap', but if some master modeler were to do so, I'd tell him that maybe by his standards of building, maybe it is. But someone that good should also be smart enough to consider the level of my experience when critiquing my build, enough to explain what I did wrong, along with what I did right!

Finally, I love to hear good comments about my builds. It inspires me when my simple builds can impress better modelers than myself, as well as when my work motivates a less experienced modeler to build something better. At the same time, I expect those same people to tell me when something they see could be improved so I can learn to make a better model. As I said above, I may not use the offered technique right away, maybe not for months, but hearing it is very appreciative for me. It is more disheartening for me to see that my work was 'viewed' 35 times, and only five or six people take the time to say "thanks for posting, I like what I see", or "Hey, I think you can make this better by....". If you took the time to look, let me know what you thought!

I already know that I will never make something that is worthy of the pages of FSM; nor will anything I build ever hold a candle to the incredible work that is entered in Tamiyacon, IPMS Regionals, or IPMS Nationals, so don't worry about making me feel inadequate. I already recognize that those who enter their work in those high-level contests are way out of my League, and I can accept that I'll never be as good as them no matter how much constructive comments I get. It doesn't matter to me, because I enjoy myself immensly building my kits, and learning how to improve, while sharing my work with all members of my IPMS club; this Forum, and anybody else who sees my work.

Dan, I couldn't have said it any better or more succintly. Praise, critique, praise. That series of actions will do more to encourage the new modeller as well as the more experienced modeller to stay in the hobby, I, too , had an experience as a young modeler when a more experienced builder trashed my first contest entry. Not a "Glad you'e here" or a "Good try,and this will help make it better" but basically "Why did you bring that crap?" That attitude prevails in too many instances. If you have criticism to offer, wait until it's solicitied. Offer encouragement along with suggestions for improvement. Keep the emphasis positive, and you'll gain the respect and admiration of those you attempt to help improve their skills. Fail in that and you've lost all personal credibility.

It is unfortunate that the negative side of criticism seems to take hold when advice is given. But I have to agree with those on here who believe that suggestions and critical evaluations should be leveled with praise and good points, too. We all started the same way , when models were thrown together with too much glue and not enough patience. And we all learned techniques to help improve our modelling skills. I believe we can share these things with others to help them move forward too. But it doesn't have to be harsh or negative. These so called experts have much more responsibility to help others, when asked, to offer encouragement and sound advice.

A sci-fi enthusiast....

Here I am, flogging the dead horse, but I had to contribute. As has been said over and over again, we are not all master builders, not all of us can grace the pages of FSM. I know for a fact that my stuff is not that good but Im sure that I will be posting pics here when my latest master piece is done. Posting your work is kinda like opening up your soul and letting complete strangers in. Harsh critisism could very well turn a burgening modeler against the hobby, or at the very least against this forum.

Secondly, who are we to quash someones work when we know little about their abilities? I'm sure if we looked long and hard enough at anybodys work we could find something to knit pick about. One of the real joys of this hobby is to look at others creativity and see how they did things. I think that is a big reason why we subscribe to FSM, go to IPMS meetings, and gather at hobby shops.

My two cents, take it for what its worth.

I have a rather nice computer and one thing that bugs me is how another member can fairly critique a poor picture of the builders model. When I hear "looks great" and to me it looks like a big blur, I usually bypass that thread or ask for a better picture. Sometimes we need to be a little more honest.

Gino, I agree with you 100% about giving constructive criticism when it is warranted (and when is it ever not, really?). I've often considered broaching this very subject myself here in the forums. Personally, I would sincerely appreciate more constructive criticsm.

I do my best with every build I look at to try to find something to comment on that will help the builder to improve his or her skills. Sometimes, however, I'm just kinda blasting through the forums, taking quick looks at things here and there, and I don't really have time to formulate an in-depth critique of a build. When I'm in that mode, I'll drop in a quick "looks nice" just to let people who I'm familiar with know that I did indeed take the time to look at their work. Also, when I'm in that mode and I do come across something that really really needs a lot of work to bring it up to what most modelers would call a decent standard, I do not comment at all. I make a note to come back when I have more time to make some constructive comments.

I believe the key word here is constructive. Sure, if we post a build here, we should expect some criticism, but it might be quite hard for a newbie to hear a lot of harsh, unconstructive criticism (for example: "That looks like crap!"). When we offer a critique, to any level of modeler, we should be honest, but not offensive. As Steve mentioned above, we should try to use plenty of qualifiers with our comments ("In my opinion..." "I think..." "Maybe..." etc). Anybody wanting to improve their abilities should be happy to hear such criticism. I know I would!

Gino, have you actually had someone tell you NOT to critique their work? If so, that's quite unfortunate, given your skills and practical knowledge of actual military stuff.

The selfish viewpoint: What bugs me more than seeing a "crappy" build getting showered with "unwarranted" accolades, however, is when I post one of my builds here and get no criticism whatsoever (and I explicitly ask for it!).
Now, I'm fairly confident in my modeling abilities, and I certainly do not think my stuff is "crap," but I know there's gotta be something about my builds that someone can give me some criticism about!
Don't get me wrong, it sure does feel good to hear a lot of nice comments about one of my babies, but I really would like some pointers, too.
Actually, good ol' Shermanfreak did tell me to tie down the stowage on a Sherman, once. Sage advice, kindly offered, and well taken.

As should all constructive criticism be taken: in the spirit of improving your craft.