Need some help on a Tiger I color scheme

Rory...you picked a good one. How many different answers would you like? I have a few of them.

 The Combat History of sPzAbt.503 is of no help, no color plates and no discussion of paint schemes at all....NEXT!  

Tigers is Combat, (PB edition), page 163, shows 332 playing in the mud, dated Oct. 4th, 1943.....that should rule out overall Panzer Grey. There is also a nice shot of it on page 23 and page 165. On page 8 of TIC, it states; "In the Spring of 1943, the tanks (of sPzAbt. 503) were repainted a strange mixture of dark yellow-green-olive." Whatever that is.

 Pages 47-48 of Tiger I on the Eastern Front has the same photos of 332 playing in the mud again. No camouflage is visible, at least that I can tell. A color plate of 333 is on page 49, it is overall dark yellow, with a considerable amount of dings, scratches, chips, dirt, etc. This matches well with a color plate of 333 on page 472 of Operation Citadel, (seen below) which is also in overall dark yellow with no additional camouflage colors. Or if they did, they have been washed away or so faded as to no longer be visible.

 Looking at the B/W photos of 332 in the mud and judging by her closest sister 333, I'd go out on a limb here and say 332 probably looks an awful lot like 333 does at this time. Overall dark yellow, with the dings, dents, scratches and dirt that 333 shows.

My worth....

Kykeon wrote:

Tigers is Combat, (PB edition), page 163, shows 332 playing in the mud, dated Oct. 4th, 1943.....that should rule out overall Panzer Grey. There is also a nice shot of it on page 23 and page 165. On page 8 of TIC, it states; "In the Spring of 1943, the tanks (of sPzAbt. 503) were repainted a strange mixture of dark yellow-green-olive." Whatever that is.

That's the generally accepted "Kursk" scheme being described, although perhaps not the best translation (if it is indeed a translation)...the two colors wouldn't have been mixed together but would have been the dunkelgelb base with the olive green pattern over the top. These would have been factory finished "Early" Tiger Is and would've come painted in Dunkelgelb at a minimum, so the Panzerschwarzgrau on the Tamiya finishing guide is out. I agree with Kykeon, you've got basically two options...straight dunkelgelb or dunkelgelb with olive green camo pattern ala Kursk pattern.

Rory,

I don't know, it seems that there are some documented schemes in tune with the Tamiya guide, here's a "Das Reich" period example:

Here's what I have on 1st SS S35 in this period:

regards,

Steve

 

 

crockett wrote:

Rory, I don't know, it seems that there are some documented schemes in tune with the Tamiya guide, here's a "Das Reich" period example: Here's what I have on 1st SS S35 in this period: regards, Steve

I think the top example would be a Tiger that was produced before Dark Yellow became standard base and then later oversprayed with it, and others camo colors...any "new" (after Feb '43) Tiger would have been delivered in Dunkelgelb, and most sources seem to indicate that the Tigers used at Kursk were newly delivered vehicles, of course the occasional "stray" can never be dismissed...

...it is a very cool looking combination of colors for sure...

While we can obviously find all sorts of different camouflage patterns occurring at the same time, even in the same theater of operations, this isn't the point. I thought we we talking about a specific vehicle here. If you look at the photos of 332 of sPzAbt 503 that Rory is talking about, you would notice that there isn't any discernible camouflage present at all. Are we referring to these photos, or just talking in general terms about camo patterns of the period? And certainly the Tigers of the 503rd would have appeared differently at different times. What time period are we talking about? I am only referring to the photos of 332 seen stuck in the mud during training exercises near Snamenka on or about Oct. 4th, 1943, (assuming the photo caption's date is correct) and comparing them to known color plates of another tank in the same company. Do we have other photos of 332 that show the addition of secondary camouflage?

Here is one shot of 332, does anyone see evidence of a camo scheme here? I think it is monotone;

I'll go along with the typical Kursk scheme of olive green over dark yellow, if we could actually see any indication of a secondary color. But why does TIC refer to this as a "strange mix"? What's so strange about green over yellow? Nothing at all.

Edit: I mistook 322 for 332 here;

OK, lets all pull out TIC and look at page 24. Here you can see a definite secondary camo overspray, most likely olive green on 322 of the 503rd. The turret balkenkreuz has been overpainted. Perhaps this is it's Kursk paint job and maybe 332 got the same as well. Maybe the shots of 332 stuck in the mud were taken shortly after the 503rd had received new vehicles and before they had a chance to camouflage them? Maybe the date on the photo caption as being Oct. 1943 is wrong? Maybe this whole discussion is futile without confirmation of a date?

So maybe there could have been more than one pattern to be found on 332, it all depends on what time frame we are talking about.

Thank you for all of the help, gentlemen....I actually have all of the reference sources mentioned, but wasn't sure of how good a judge of color tonality I was from black and white photos.  Unfortunately, I've already painted the hull and wheels Schwarzgrau, and attached the wheels (an error)...not sure what I might do, possibly repaint the wheels on the vehicle as best I can and try to repaint the rubber tires.  At any rate, it is Schwarzgrau over stippled Mr Surfacer, and I think the Schwarzgrau will not be a bad undercoating for the Dunkelgelb.  Anyway, I've been working on this tank off and on for months, trying to fumble my way through the Aber Photoetch Superset (conceding that there are certain items in the set that I just don't have the patience or dexterity to build).  I do believe I will go with the Dunkelgelb as an overall color scheme for the 332.  I actually chose this particular tank because of the interesting battle damage and mud apparent in the photos...I think half the fun of building armour is weathering and damaging it realistically. 

...found an interesting interpretation of your Tiger subject by one modeler:

 

Yes, thanks, I saw that--it's from The Modeler's Guide to the Tiger Tank, #323 of the same PzAbt. 503.  Looks like the modeler took quite literally the "strange mixture of dark yellow-green olive" description from Tigers in Combat as a blend of pigments, rather than actually a two-tone interpretation.  It's a beautiful specimen (as are all the builds in that book), but I'm not so sure the color is anything that was found in nature.  The more I look at it, the more the color in the photos looks more reflective, lighter in shade than Schwarzgrau.  I think Dunkelgelb is the safest bet...but I guess we will never know for sure. 

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to get hung-up on the "strange mixture" phrase. I wonder where Wolfgang Schneider got this information? Did some former member of the 503rd tell him it was painted this way, or is this just his own interpretation of the B/W photos? The color does look rather dark in the photos, but maybe it was just cloudy that day, improper exposure, bad hair day.....

...looks like this guy took the Tamiya painting instructions literally, based on his interpretation of the period pics: Olivegrun/Schwarzgrau blend !!!  Sorta reminds me of the color that the Tiger unit in Tunisia is supposed to have used, which opens up another can of worms!!!