Grossdeutchland Panther Markings

I've read that these markings were rare concerning Panthers as a general rule, but there are photos of exceptions, can't help on the Gossdeutschland specifics though...

Steve

Here is a Grossdeutschland Panther that as far as I can tell has nothing but the Tactical # on it.

espins1 wrote:

Here is a Grossdeutschland Panther that as far as I can tell has nothing but the Tactical # on it.

Cool Pic. 

Kykeon wrote:

If you look carefully, right next to the tactical number, there is the small helmet insignia next to it. This shows up in color plates of this vehicle too. It is in red. (See Trojca's Panther Variants in Color, page 78.) This is the only photo of a GD Panther I can think of that shows this clearly.

I think I can make it out just to the left of "01", but that leaves little room for the 1st number.

Mansteins revenge wrote:

...I have refs that show the Division insignia on all manners of vehicles: Schwimmwagons, StuGs, haltracks, etc...but other than the occasional small helmet on the turret side on Command tanks cannot find any pics showing it on Panthers or any other turreted tank, which is unusual because Grossdeutchland was fairly meticulous in marking their vehicles...one other thing to keep in mind is that the Division eventually grew into a Korps sized unit, which at that time the variations of the sub-units was the helmet in various colors: blue, yellow and red...

Very interesting...I see in the picture that the German cross is present albiet very faded...so faded I didn't notice it right away.

ps1scw wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote: ...I have refs that show the Division insignia on all manners of vehicles: Schwimmwagons, StuGs, haltracks, etc...but other than the occasional small helmet on the turret side on Command tanks cannot find any pics showing it on Panthers or any other turreted tank, which is unusual because Grossdeutchland was fairly meticulous in marking their vehicles...one other thing to keep in mind is that the Division eventually grew into a Korps sized unit, which at that time the variations of the sub-units was the helmet in various colors: blue, yellow and red... Very interesting...I see in the picture that the German cross is present albiet very faded...so faded I didn't notice it right away.

I just checked a book by JJF that is just on the Panzer Regiment of Grossdeutchland and there is NO pic to be seen of a turreted AFV with the Divisional insignia, not one...BUT, there are several Panthers (Command versions) that have the small Divisional insignia next to the tactical numbers on the turret as in the above posted pic...the tactical numbers were: 01, 0 and 001...however, as I stated earlier, there are tons of other vehicles with full sets of markings, especially SPW's, Kubels and Schwimms...

I have seen a photo of the helmet painted on the turret of a captured T34/76 M43. I think it was in the Squadron Signal book about GD.

John 

Mansteins revenge wrote:

ps1scw wrote:  Mansteins revenge wrote: ...I have refs that show the Division insignia on all manners of vehicles: Schwimmwagons, StuGs, haltracks, etc...but other than the occasional small helmet on the turret side on Command tanks cannot find any pics showing it on Panthers or any other turreted tank, which is unusual because Grossdeutchland was fairly meticulous in marking their vehicles...one other thing to keep in mind is that the Division eventually grew into a Korps sized unit, which at that time the variations of the sub-units was the helmet in various colors: blue, yellow and red... Very interesting...I see in the picture that the German cross is present albiet very faded...so faded I didn't notice it right away. I just checked a book by JJF that is just on the Panzer Regiment of Grossdeutchland and there is NO pic to be seen of a turreted AFV with the Divisional insignia, not one...BUT, there are several Panthers (Command versions) that have the small Divisional insignia next to the tactical numbers on the turret as in the above posted pic...the tactical numbers were: 01, 0 and 001...however, as I stated earlier, there are tons of other vehicles with full sets of markings, especially SPW's, Kubels and Schwimms...

I wish I had known that when I build my Italeri Panther A earlier this year..... I just followed the instructions and put the white helmet symbol on the front according to the marking guide.  You're right Manny as far as I can tell, there are no tanks with the bigger unit symbol on them, at least not according to all my pics.

ps1scw wrote:

I'm trying to dress my A late up a little bit.  Are there any Heer or SS that had divisional markings?

...right off hand I know that both 3rd (Totenkopf) and 5th (Wiking) SS had Divisional markings on some Panthers...Lehr also carried a version of their Divisional marking on some Panthers...

...interestingly enough, it seems that Panthers were the LEAST LIKELY to carry Divisional markings when compared to other AFV's, such as the Mk IV and Tigers...not sure why, but it could stem from the fact that often the Panther battalion of the Panzer Regiment were temporarily assigned to different Divisions, other than their parent one, when the need arose fairly often...

stikpusher wrote:

In Normandy, both 1st SS and Lehr had some distinctive unit marks on their Panthers.

All Normandy Panthers had some cool markings as far as turret numbers and camo, but I know of only one PD fighting there that I can verify as having Divisional Insignia, and that was the Lehr Division...and their Panthers were borrowed from another PD (I believe 5th PD) on the Eastern front!

Mansteins revenge wrote:

stikpusher wrote: In Normandy, both 1st SS and Lehr had some distinctive unit marks on their Panthers. All Normandy Panthers had some cool markings as far as turret numbers and camo, but I know of only one PD fighting there that I can verify as having Divisional Insignia, and that was the Lehr Division...and their Panthers were borrowed from another PD (I believe 5th PD) on the Eastern front!

Did they retain the 5th's marking or apply the "L"?  Where would the L be found, above and to the right of the vision port? 

ps1scw wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote:  stikpusher wrote: In Normandy, both 1st SS and Lehr had some distinctive unit marks on their Panthers. All Normandy Panthers had some cool markings as far as turret numbers and camo, but I know of only one PD fighting there that I can verify as having Divisional Insignia, and that was the Lehr Division...and their Panthers were borrowed from another PD (I believe 5th PD) on the Eastern front! Did they retain the 5th's marking or apply the "L"?  Where would the L be found, above and to the right of the vision port?

...here's a pic showing the tactical markings on a Mk IV in Normandy:

Mansteins revenge wrote:

...here's a pic showing the tactical markings on a Mk IV in Normandy:

Is that 7/5? 

It mentions the script L, but I do not see it...do you?

ps1scw wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote: ...here's a pic showing the tactical markings on a Mk IV in Normandy: Is that 7/5?  It mentions the script L, but I do not see it...do you?

...actually it is a 7/L (the L is in a funky script; I jotted this down for a build of mine that represent a 6th company Mk IV that might be clearer):

...the rhomboid shape is the tactical symbol for armor...

According to "Panzer Colors II" the tanks came from 3rd Panzer Div, 1/PzRgt6, and used a larger outline version of the script "L".

All the photos I have in my books of the PL Div in Normandy show no markings on the glacis plate, but show no other angles other than head on. The "L" could be on the rear of the tank. The PL also used very large turret numbers (almost full height of the turret) and a very diffused three color sprayed camo scheme.

stikpusher wrote:

According to "Panzer Colors II" the tanks came from 3rd Panzer Div, 1/PzRgt6, and used a larger outline version of the script "L". All the photos I have in my books of the PL Div in Normandy show no markings on the glacis plate, but show no other angles other than head on. The "L" could be on the rear of the tank. The PL also used very large turret numbers (almost full height of the turret) and a very diffused three color sprayed camo scheme.

Thanks all for the additional info.  I was thinking of getting these decals

http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/german/axt351010reviewfds_1.html

I don't see the L in these, but I really like the oversized turret numbers.  234 is calling out to me.

PSW, those look like some good decals. I always liked  the PL division, especially as its reputation and honor was not tarnished like several (but not all) of the SS Panzer Divisions were.

Manny, I would love to see any photos you have or can dig up of those alternate markings for the PL Panthers. Like you said before elsewhere, that variety is what keeps the builds interesting. I like those Mk IV markings and have some for one in my stash.

stikpusher wrote:

PSW, those look like some good decals. I always liked  the PL division, especially as its reputation and honor was not tarnished like several (but not all) of the SS Panzer Divisions were. Manny, I would love to see any photos you have or can dig up of those alternate markings for the PL Panthers. Like you said before elsewhere, that variety is what keeps the builds interesting. I like those Mk IV markings and have some for one in my stash.

Yes, I am aware of the PL not being SS. Without trying to start a bunch of HEAT rounds coming my way, I prefer to model German units that have the cleaner reputations such as PL, GD, or DAK.

 As a retired soldier I understand the gray areas of war happen. How that unit reacts is recorded in history and will later determine if they kept or lost their honor. But the units that partook in atrocities don't get into my collection.

I quickly dug where I thought there was a build-up of a Lehr Panther and it turned out to be a 116th (Greyhound PD) Panther! Interestingly enough, it borrowed it's Panther battalion from the 24th PD! No wonder Divisional markings are rare on Panthers!

I will concur with stikpusher: your best bet is to go w/ the LARGE red tactical numbers outlined in white...there are several refs that confirm this...I have a few pics that seem to also show NO numbers on the turret but the red/white/large seem to be the norm...no divisional symbols in sight on Lehr panthers...I can confirm that Mk IV's from the following PD's in Normandy have Divisional insignia however: 2nd, 2nd SS, 12th SS, and Lehr...here is a plate of a typical Normandy Panther from Lehr:

I personally don't like the looks of the overly large tacticals numbers...even in real pics they look "cartoonish"...

...another Mk IV w/ Lehr markings on L fender that differs from earlier Mk IV pic (below)...

Panther from Lehr w/ no Divisional markings to be seen:

Very nice info, and great pics, thank you all very much.

Gotta watch that spare track!