"The Hunters GB" (2/1/08 to 6/1/08)

I reiterate that the SU-122 should qualify:

http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=45&lang=en

Carves wrote:

Wow.... this GB sure took off  fast. 19 people has joined Should be fun fun fun --- Ben

I think the masses have been waiting for something to begin.

This should get me off my lazy end and back to the bench. I've been slaving around the house for the past 2 weeks.

Wow.... this GB sure took off  fast.

19 people has joined

Should be fun fun fun

---
Ben

dupes wrote:

jthurston wrote: OK, here's the hunters in my stash: DML Marder II, StuG III G, Nashorn, Jagdpanther (early) (x2 for some reason); Tamiya 110 M8. So I'll build one of the jagdpanthers, prolly either OOB or with only minor AM (maybe a barrel, etc). Thurston - I'm sure I could help you lighten your stash-load of that "extra" JP if necessary...

Watch out for that pair of sink mark infested treads though, providing it's the older Imperial series kit (9015 i believe).  My plan to have a lil more TLC for an old kit like this went out the window the minute I saw those tracklinks.

jthurston wrote:

OK, here's the hunters in my stash: DML Marder II, StuG III G, Nashorn, Jagdpanther (early) (x2 for some reason); Tamiya 110 M8. So I'll build one of the jagdpanthers, prolly either OOB or with only minor AM (maybe a barrel, etc).

Thurston - I'm sure I could help you lighten your stash-load of that "extra" JP if necessary...

dupes wrote:

tigerman wrote: Oh, you're going to be sent to the corner Mister....... You make some good points. This is getting complicted isn't it. The thin-skinned vehicles would be better suited for ambush, but even the heavier ones did the same. Hmmmm. I would omit the halftracks from the list. To me they don't fit the characteristics of a TD hunter. Sorry to all. Hahahahahha....sorry for being a pain. Just trying to clarify. So then the edited list (Hermes compilation) would look something like this...? German StuG III Ausf F, G w/75mm StuK 42 StuG IV Marder series SdKfz 251/22 SdKfz 250/10 Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer Jadpanzer IV series E-10/E-20 Hornisse/Nashorn Ferdinand/Elefant Jagdpanzer V Jagdpanther Jagdpanzer VI Jagdtiger  US M3 GMC M6 Fargo GMC M10 Wolverine GMC M18 Hellcat GMC M36 Jackson GMC  Russia SU-76 SU-85 SU-100 ISU-122 ISU-152  Great Britain Firefly Archer Achilles Cruiser Mk VIII Challenger

That's a nice compliation. Still plenty of choices, though German will be dominant. 

tigerman wrote:

Oh, you're going to be sent to the corner Mister....... You make some good points. This is getting complicted isn't it. The thin-skinned vehicles would be better suited for ambush, but even the heavier ones did the same. Hmmmm. I would omit the halftracks from the list. To me they don't fit the characteristics of a TD hunter. Sorry to all.

Hahahahahha....sorry for being a pain. Just trying to clarify.

So then the edited list (Hermes compilation) would look something like this...?

German
StuG III Ausf F, G w/75mm StuK 42
StuG IV
Marder series
SdKfz 251/22
SdKfz 250/10
Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer
Jadpanzer IV series
E-10/E-20
Hornisse/Nashorn
Ferdinand/Elefant
Jagdpanzer V Jagdpanther
Jagdpanzer VI Jagdtiger 

US
M3 GMC
M6 Fargo GMC
M10 Wolverine GMC
M18 Hellcat GMC
M36 Jackson GMC 

Russia
SU-76
SU-85
SU-100
ISU-122
ISU-152 

Great Britain
Firefly
Archer
Achilles
Cruiser Mk VIII Challenger

Carves wrote:

STUG61 wrote: Eric I'll be doing the AFV club Achilles Mk.II.c. I'll save all the Stugs in the stash for later!! Hey I have a StuG in my stash too. Maybe we can wait until StuG GB come around. --- Ben

It's was done about 3 years ago. I lost the badge. I'd certainly go for another round. I have the Dragon G late with all my goods........waiting. 

dupes wrote:

tigerman wrote:  Hermesminiatures wrote: The 251/22 was a very effective ambusher, and destroyed many allied tanks in Normandy. They were a great annoyance to deal with because the quickness of the 251 enabled the anti-tank crew to fire-and-run, something that couldn't be done with the standard PaK 40. Allied tank crews actually found the Marders easier to deal with becuase of their poorer mobility and higher sillouette. The 251/22 is in pretty much the same class as the lightly-armored Marders - an effective ambusher, but it has no chance in a shootout. If you do decide not to include the 251/22, what about the US M3 75mm GMC? Obviously not a Tiger-killer, but it saw some success against the early Panzers in North Africa. Just my two cents. And it's your GB, so whatever is fine Ugh........Okay this is getting tricky. Seemingly anything with an AT on a chassis qualifies to some point. I guess the 251/22 would be good to go. So I assume the Demag w/50mm would too and that funky RSO tractor with 75mm. Heh...I shouldn't have gone digging around. I'm not saying that any of this has to qualify - just trying to figure out what a Tank Destroyer really is. If your definition of what a "Hunter" is differs from that, I have no problem with the list getting chopped down a bit...your later examples especially enforcing the idea. Demag/JagdTiger certainly don't seeeeem like they would be in the same "class".  Got 'til the first of February to figure it out, anyway.

Oh, you're going to be sent to the corner Mister.......

You make some good points. This is getting complicted isn't it. The thin-skinned vehicles would be better suited for ambush, but even the heavier ones did the same. Hmmmm. I would omit the halftracks from the list. To me they don't fit the characteristics of a TD hunter. Sorry to all.

STUG61 wrote:

Eric I'll be doing the AFV club Achilles Mk.II.c. I'll save all the Stugs in the stash for later!!

Hey I have a StuG in my stash too. Maybe we can wait until StuG GB come around.

---
Ben

Eric I'll be doing the AFV club Achilles Mk.II.c.

I'll save all the Stugs in the stash for later!!

OK, here's the hunters in my stash:

DML Marder II, StuG III G, Nashorn, Jagdpanther (early) (x2 for some reason); Tamiya 110 M8.

So I'll build one of the jagdpanthers, prolly either OOB or with only minor AM (maybe a barrel, etc).

tigerman wrote:

Hermesminiatures wrote: The 251/22 was a very effective ambusher, and destroyed many allied tanks in Normandy. They were a great annoyance to deal with because the quickness of the 251 enabled the anti-tank crew to fire-and-run, something that couldn't be done with the standard PaK 40. Allied tank crews actually found the Marders easier to deal with becuase of their poorer mobility and higher sillouette. The 251/22 is in pretty much the same class as the lightly-armored Marders - an effective ambusher, but it has no chance in a shootout. If you do decide not to include the 251/22, what about the US M3 75mm GMC? Obviously not a Tiger-killer, but it saw some success against the early Panzers in North Africa. Just my two cents. And it's your GB, so whatever is fine Ugh........Okay this is getting tricky. Seemingly anything with an AT on a chassis qualifies to some point. I guess the 251/22 would be good to go. So I assume the Demag w/50mm would too and that funky RSO tractor with 75mm.

Heh...I shouldn't have gone digging around.

I'm not saying that any of this has to qualify - just trying to figure out what a Tank Destroyer really is. If your definition of what a "Hunter" is differs from that, I have no problem with the list getting chopped down a bit...your later examples especially enforcing the idea. Demag/JagdTiger certainly don't seeeeem like they would be in the same "class". 

Got 'til the first of February to figure it out, anyway.

I would like to see if I can meet the deadline this time, I stil have not recived the tower to my T-34:
Dragon #6320, StuG.III Ausf.G Early Production

Thank You

Hey Eric,

I'm in !

Sign me up for Dragon 1/35 SU-100

---
Ben

With due respect, I believe that the SU-122 would qualify.

http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=45&lang=en

I really wish that there was a kit of the GMC M3, that's still my favorite TD of the war....

Dragon, hear my prayers with the upcoming M3 release!

dupes wrote:

EDIT - how about the Hetzer? Isn't it's classification something like Jagdpanzer 38(t)?

Correct. Never an official name, much like the Gepard.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

The 251/22 was a very effective ambusher, and destroyed many allied tanks in Normandy. They were a great annoyance to deal with because the quickness of the 251 enabled the anti-tank crew to fire-and-run, something that couldn't be done with the standard PaK 40. Allied tank crews actually found the Marders easier to deal with becuase of their poorer mobility and higher sillouette. The 251/22 is in pretty much the same class as the lightly-armored Marders - an effective ambusher, but it has no chance in a shootout. If you do decide not to include the 251/22, what about the US M3 75mm GMC? Obviously not a Tiger-killer, but it saw some success against the early Panzers in North Africa. Just my two cents. And it's your GB, so whatever is fine

Ugh........Okay this is getting tricky. Seemingly anything with an AT on a chassis qualifies to some point. I guess the 251/22 would be good to go. So I assume the Demag w/50mm would too and that funky RSO tractor with 75mm.

Glad to have to you JT.

The 251/22 was a very effective ambusher, and destroyed many allied tanks in Normandy. They were a great annoyance to deal with because the quickness of the 251 enabled the anti-tank crew to fire-and-run, something that couldn't be done with the standard PaK 40. Allied tank crews actually found the Marders easier to deal with becuase of their poorer mobility and higher sillouette. The 251/22 is in pretty much the same class as the lightly-armored Marders - an effective ambusher, but it has no chance in a shootout.

If you do decide not to include the 251/22, what about the US M3 75mm GMC? Obviously not a Tiger-killer, but it saw some success against the early Panzers in North Africa.

Just my two cents. And it's your GB, so whatever is fine

OOOHHH!!! Count me in!!!!! (jumping up and down)

 Dragon Jagdpanther, I think. I'll check my shelves tonight and verify.

Shoot. And I was trying so hard to resist...

That's a good list Hermes. We'll allow the Firefly unless someone comes a valid reason not to.

About the 251 w/75mm. That's borderline. I doubt they would be hunting down armor, but rather more of a support role. Just my 2 cents.

I did forget the Hetzer. WIll add it to the list...

The SU-122 is a T-34 chassis, while the ISU-122 is based off the IS-II chassis. The SU-122 carries a short-barreled howitzer, while the ISU-122 is armed with a long 122mm AT gun. 

SU-122:

ISU-122:

Certainly seems to be a well thought out and comprehensive list to me.

EDIT - how about the Hetzer? Isn't it's classification something like Jagdpanzer 38(t)?

Semi off-topic - what's the difference between an SU-122 and an ISU-122? 

The Firefly carried no MG and very little HE ammo, making it useless as an infantry support tank. Its role was exclusively that of tank hunter, hiding behind cover and waiting for the big cats to show themselves, then picking them off at long range.

IMO, the criteria should be simple: anything that was bred as a dedicated tank hunter should be allowed. I don't think it would be fair to exclude the Firefly, since it carries a dedicated anti-tank gun and was the king of the allied TD's. It's essentially a slower, heavier armored version of the Achilles, because it carries the exact same armament - it just has a top on its turret.

Something that totes a big gun but was designed as a main battle tank or assualt gun would not qualify - like some of the StuG and SU series. So only the StuGs with the StuK 42 75mm would qualify, and while the SU-76 , SU-85 and SU-100 are TD's, the SU-122 is not.

In the case of a multi-purpose vehicle like the ISU-152, I'm not sure. It was designed as an assualt gun, but soon became known as "beast killer" becuase of its effectiveness against the German heavy tanks. I'd probably include it as well. 

Here is a list:

German

StuG III Ausf F, G w/75mm StuK 42

StuG IV 

Marder series

SdKfz 251/22

SdKfz 250/10

Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer 

Jadpanzer IV series

E-10/E-20 

Hornisse/Nashorn 

Ferdinand/Elefant 

Jagdpanzer V Jagdpanther

Jagdpanzer VI Jagdtiger 

US 

M3 GMC

M6 Fargo GMC 

M10 Wolverine GMC

M18 Hellcat GMC 

M36 Jackson GMC 

Russia 

SU-76

SU-85 

SU-100

ISU-122

ISU-152 

Great Britan

Firefly

Archer

Achilles 

Cruiser Mk VIII Challenger

Some examples of inelligible vehicles would be:

Tiger I & II

Panther

Panzer IV (even 75mm H models)

Early StuG III's with short guns

Sherman M4A3(76)

Super Pershing 

SU-152 

Comet 

Just my thoughts...