Why German armor?

QUOTE: Originally posted by box1 Who wants to model production line stuff.

Quickly raises hand!

I personally like German Armor much better because of the different types of vehicles they had. They could make something out of nothing. We should have been so lucky to Win WW2 cause if they would have had somebody that would have listened to their Generals the world would look a lot different today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my rant!

I had a partner who was half German, well after a few years it came out her grandfather has been in the SS during the war. My initial reaction was “oh my god” but I had to find out more. He had died some years before we met much to her sadness; it was obvious he was a much loved man. How could he be evil? The answer is this; he joined the SS before the war when Hitler was admired by the German people. The country was in a terrible state and he delivered on his promises, thus for the most he helped the country out of deep trouble in the eyes of the public. So he did the patriotic thing and joined the Nazi party.
Now her Grandmother admitted that there were things going on that they both did not agree with (do you agree with everything your chosen political party does?) but on the whole their life was much better under the Nazi party. I think that for the most the ordinary citizen this was a typical experience.
Anyway when the war started he had to join the army and as a Nazi party member he was put in the SS. Why did he join? He was young (21) and it was expected of him. That may sound strange but I suppose they were different times. The fighting he never spoke of to his wife or children, they just remember him as a very withdrawn and sad man but with a huge amount of love for his children and grandchildren.
After he died his wife said that he had to fight because he would have been killed and his family put in to a camp.

So what does this tell me? It would be too easy to say that all SS were evil and all Wehrmacht were good honest soldiers. There were good and bad on all sides German, English, American and Japanese. As I have said before the victors get to write the history. Stereotyping is a bad thing, we must be more careful; else we end up committing an injustice against some who has done nothing wrong. Remember that it’s governments that make war then throw ordinary citizens in to do the killing, of all the Vet’s I have spoken to most say the only thing they fought for was to stay alive!

In the Boer war the English used Concentration camps for the first time ( yep there an English invention ) and killed over 10% of the Boer population, 28,000 young men, women and children died in these camps. The Americans slaughtered an unknown number of native Indians in their own country and can you say no war crimes happened in Vietnam? Australians did the same to the aboriginals. The Christian crusades also slaughtered thousands and all in the name of God!

A friend of mine was sent out to the first Gulf war, when he came back he told me how he was ordered not to take prisoners as this would slow down the initial advance!!! So he and his squad shot white flag wavers. Is that not a war crime to?

There are no innocents in war! How many have been killed in the name of GOD!! When the first commandment is ‘thou shall not kill’, justify that! I don’t remember reading any get out clauses in the bible.


Back off the

I think German armour is like the Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Jaguars of the tank world and allied armour is the mass produced Fords! Who wants to model production line stuff.

If the US cavalry had their way, I wouldn't be here either. Not to make light of your convictions Airbrush, I understand the resentment for an idea and political dogma . There are no innocents in any war. Military or political.

It is a part of our history though and I think as long as you keep in mind your convictions and don't idolize what you resent you aren't giving in to what you despise. Otherwse it limits your prospects. Although there is more than enough Army and Luftwaffe stuff to keep you busy. (There is that Guernica thing though...)

Me, I like it because of the look. Sort of War machines by designers. Europe has always been in the cutting edge of industrial design and the Germans were at the top of their game then.

Mike

Whoa this topic got verrryyyy interesting. [:0] I kinda like to compare modelling German armor as oppossed to say Shermans as a person's taste for Ford vs Chevy. You might like the styling of one car over the other, so you go with your favorite. Same can be said of modelling German armor. To the many of us that do it, it's because we find it aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Others prefer the sheer bruteness of the heavies. Others like the many variations. The fact that the Germans built so many different types and variations compared to other countries, it takes a bigger percentage out of what the model companies produce. They also produce by demand.

As for the topic of building a Nazi this or Nazi that, I look at it as building a piece of history. I don't attach stereotypes to what I build. I like Russian armor, does that make me a Communist? No. All beligerants during the war killed captured soldiers and civillians. Americans included. It was all part of the hell they went through. Does that make it right? No.

Of course the Holocoust was a totally different situation for which the world still hasn't completely healed over and Germany still is living with what the Nazis did some 60 years ago. Same can be said about Japan. Their country is still frowned upon by Korea and other countries that they terrorized so many years ago.

Even though those countries committed some of the most heinous crimes imaginable, I still can't help but be fascinated in their weapons of war. Perhaps, Germany and its monster leader has created such a horrific imprint in history that we can't help but be sucked into its dark past. Call it one of morbid fascination, not adulation. I'm now returning this topic to its regularly scehduled program.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

Thats right... they r... well maybe were better off dead... I wouldnt be here today if they had had their way.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Airbrush The one type of German anything I will not under... almost any circumstance model is SS stuff. I hate their guts I'm perfectly content with modeling the wehrmacht, and the Luftwaffe

Airbrush, this quote reminded me of a WWII veteran I talked to a few years back. He always liked to be in the line opposite SS formations.... because he didn't feel any guilt in shooting them. He considered the Wehrmacht formations to be excellent soldiers and worthy of any chance to surrender. SS troopers were just something the world would be better off rid of.
Interesting.. I've heard of other WWII ETO and IC vets voice similar opinions of the 'lightning' on the collars. I'm sure they're not Kiss fans!

Ron.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Airbrush The one type of German anything I will not under... almost any circumstance model is SS stuff. I hate their guts I'm perfectly content with modeling the wehrmacht, and the Luftwaffe

Airbrush, this quote reminded me of a WWII veteran I talked to a few years back. He always liked to be in the line opposite SS formations.... because he didn't feel any guilt in killing them. He considered the Wehrmacht formations to be excellent soldiers and worthy of any chance to surrender. SS troopers were just something the world would be better off rid of.
Interesting.. I've heard of other WWII ETO and IC vets voice similar opinions of the 'lightning' on the collars. I'm sure they're not Kiss fans!

Ron.

I prefer German armour firstly because there are more camou colours and combinations there of available to use. Their armour also for the most part appears angular which seems more interesting. They also had colourful markings, but so did the British, while American was mainly boring white.

The one type of German anything I will not under... almost any circumstance model is SS stuff. I hate their guts to the point of.... not sure but I hate the SS beyond alot of other stuff. I havnt got one singal SS sign on my shelves of models. (incase you cant tell, I dont like the SS) I wont model anything with the ss sign or the swastika on it that I intend to keep. I'm perfectly content with modeling the wehrmacht, and the Luftwaffe

QUOTE: Larry, did you say that just to see if I'd post a pic of Hessler's King Tiger?

That's it........

I'm gonna see if Dave will do a J-Hulk Hessler Tiger sticky!

QUOTE: Larry, did you say that just to see if I'd post a pic of Hessler's King Tiger?

But of course (said in best Inspector-Clouseau French accent)!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn We should have a show of hands to see how many of us who like German armor (and I do, despite all my comments) began their admiration for the vehicles when they first saw THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE.

Larry, did you say that just to see if I'd post a pic of Hessler's King Tiger?

Thanks Frosty,

But really, I'm just 'in' so I can play with the 'toys' and work with my crew. Live fire this weekend! Steel on target! Woooo Hoooo!

Ron.

Just went to Track-Link the other day. In the gallery section there is 810 posts of German WW II armor as opposed to 100+ for USA


German armor does have the numbers in variety of kits, but 100 dollars says almost every modeler out there has at least one or two sherman or variations in his collection.

Well, my hand is up for German armor! US, Japanese, British, French... Soviet... all have made vehicles that I really like and my other hand is up for them. I've an affinity toward Stuarts because the first tank I ever played in was an M3A3 (and if I'd have had $2000 laying around in 1967, I'd have bought it!). I like M109's, M60's, M1's, etc, because I've crewed them (I'd rather go the the tank tables on a slick '60 than an M1... MUCH more fun to gun, without all the added computer equipment! Of course, I'd rather go to war in an M1! ... I also have a preference the same way to the M109 through the A5 for going to a firing point... warfare? The Paladin wins hands down...). So, having been around tanks since 3rd grade, I can't say what drew me to them... I think it's their solidity and the exotic appearance (and variety) of their engineering.
Like any vehicle, give engineers from five different countries the same criteria, power plant, armament and crew and they'll come up with five different designs... the sheer variety in armored vehicles is just cool.

Ron.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poniatowski No need to apologize, this is a good discussion Soooo... Finally, my opinion on the moral of modeling war is fairly simple. It’s part of history and remembering history is good. Yes of course, war is terrible and there are war crimes. There are also civilian crimes (rape, murder, etc) committed every day. But, all of this, good and bad, is part of our human history.. and it goes back a lot longer than I... and that's a LOOOONNNNGGG time!. I’ve met several dozen WWII US vets, a few German and Soviet WWII vets and they’re all pretty much the same as individuals. They all remember the funny as well as the horrible things that happened to them. None of them started the wars they were in, they were just told to serve their countries and follow orders. None of them admitted to doing anything criminal during the war, but who would? All of them said they still had nightmares about battle... 50 years later. Personally, I think that service to one’s country is a great honor (considering that only around 3% of all Americans have servied in the military), and I’ve felt that way since I enlisted in 1975 when the American people, as a whole, hated soldiers. So, I guess what I’m saying is have fun modeling, try to be accurate if that’s your intent.. sometimes it isn't, right? ... and (for a heavy ending here) people in any military do what they do for various reasons, adventure, a way ‘up’ in society, because they were conscripted, because they want a challenge, because they want to serve their countries or think they'll be considered heroes, or as in my case, because I wanted to play with armored vehicles! I’ve found that veterans, no matter where they come from are pretty much the same and are, as a whole, as fine a group of men and women as you’d ever care to meet. Spouting finished. for now. Have a GREAT weekend all! Ron.

wow, u said it all right here !
and thank u for serving, especially at a time in our history when it wasn't necessarily a popular choice... i agree wholeheartedly with ur last statement re: veterans. when i look at the programs on the history channel with interviews from people who were involved in combat, i'm often struck by the similarities between the stories from soldiers on both sides !
best wishes,
frosty

Great topic, I will keep my answer simple, I enjoy building armor vehicles because they are an interesting part of military history in WW2. I build all countries armor depending on how much I like the subject. As to the political stuff, my take on that is that as long as we learn from history so as not to repeat it, I see no reason why it can't be modeled. Of course as in anything there will be people who will go overboard but I think most of people can keep a proper perspective.

We should have a show of hands to see how many of us who like German armor (and I do, despite all my comments) began their admiration for the vehicles when they first saw THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE.

All armor is designed for one purpose that we all understand,weather used by friend or foe. It comes down to what draws a person to armor. Is it the techincal aspect or the shear size and force they project? Many here are or have been on tank crews and can tell of the feeling of riding on or commanding their first track. Or the first tank you ever seen and you were hooked on armor and have carried that feeling over to modeling.For myself as modeler, I build tanks not to express the political use of the machine but to recreate a part of history that I'm drawn to.


In todays National Guard there are no weekend warriors

No need to apologize, this is a good discussion Soooo...

Time for me to spout here a bit. Like I said, I like all of the variety presented by German WWII vehicles!!! Many of them are just COOL looking. Of course, I like Shermans and Chaffees too!

As far as engineering goes, yes, the plate work on the hulls and turrets of those tanks is second to none, as was the armament! Let’s not forget that this same ‘attention to detail’ kept the Germans from turning out the numbers of tanks they needed, along with their inability to figure out which tank they wanted as their ‘main battle tank’ cost them a lot. Why would a country that had an excellent tank like the Panther want to mess with a King Tiger? Big gun? Big deal. Lots of armor? Lots of weight! Underpowered, hard to transport, useless in urban warfare.... Cool looking?? OH YES!! Great to model? YOU BET!! But not much good as an all round fighter in places like Aachen.
German WWII tanks were also noisy and I’m not talking about their engines (although the Maybach really barks, as did the Pershing... the M5 on the other hand, was as quiet as a mouse! ... I guess it had to be! LOL). And yes, if the Allies could hear a MkVI coming two kilometers off, they could call in air support to knock it out. That’s not only due to loud engines but also due to the dry pin or ‘dead’ track they used (which ate up fuel!). Of course, on the other hand were the half tracks with individual roller bearings in each shoe... talk about a maintenance headache! Quiet though... but so is a rubber bushed live track, like on the Sherman.
The US tanks were second to none for ease of operation, maintenance (except for that Chrysler Multi-bank!), and were fairly comfortable for the crew. On a PzKpfw III, the TC had to straddle the gun guard when seated in the back of the turret and it was CRAMPED back there! (been there, tried that) Not my idea of a good TC’s position when you have to move around all over the place looking for targets. Of course neither was the single periscope on the Sherman’s split hatch. But that at least could be swiveled with one hand by the TC who was fairly comfortable on his little butt pad (those goofy round seats US tanks had in WWII). AND as was pointed out earlier, a Sherman was more likely to make it into battle, because it could cruise like crazy.
Good engineering doesn’t always mean complicated engineering, which is what the Germans tended to do with much of their WWII armor. Were they good tanks? Without a doubt. Could they have been better if they were simpler? Depends on what ‘better’ means. There’s little doubt there’d have been more of them if the Germans would have allowed for butt plate welding, rather than interlocking corners. Yes, it’s much stronger in construction, but once a 17 pounder pierces the side plate or an air to ground missile blows the tank onto its back, what does it matter? Are they fun to model? OF COURSE!!

Finally, my opinion on the moral of modeling war is fairly simple. It’s part of history and remembering history is good. Yes of course, war is terrible and there are war crimes. There are also civilian crimes (rape, murder, etc) committed every day. But, all of this, good and bad, is part of our human history.. and it goes back a lot longer than I... and that's a LOOOONNNNGGG time!. I’ve met several dozen WWII US vets, a few German and Soviet WWII vets and they’re all pretty much the same as individuals. They all remember the funny as well as the horrible things that happened to them. None of them started the wars they were in, they were just told to serve their countries and follow orders. None of them admitted to doing anything criminal during the war, but who would? All of them said they still had nightmares about battle... 50 years later.
Personally, I think that service to one’s country is a great honor (considering that only around 3% of all Americans have servied in the military), and I’ve felt that way since I enlisted in 1975 when the American people, as a whole, hated soldiers.
So, I guess what I’m saying is have fun modeling, try to be accurate if that’s your intent.. sometimes it isn't, right? ... and (for a heavy ending here) people in any military do what they do for various reasons, adventure, a way ‘up’ in society, because they were conscripted, because they want a challenge, because they want to serve their countries or think they'll be considered heroes, or as in my case, because I wanted to play with armored vehicles!
I’ve found that veterans, no matter where they come from are pretty much the same and are, as a whole, as fine a group of men and women as you’d ever care to meet.

Spouting finished. for now.

Have a GREAT weekend all!

Ron.

here's a topic that is incredibly interesting !
my thoughts:
to model any subject is not necessarily to glorify it ( the fact that i am not a fan of the Waffen SS didn't keep me from using the decals that came with my Hasegawa Panzer iv... but i did have to think about it at least twice before i did)
and a plastic model isn't going to do any damage !

war by it's nature is a terrible thing (ask R.E.Lee; "It is well that war is so terrible lest we grow too fond of it."- that is just about the most appropriate sig for this forum anyone could ever find !) and war machines do kill. finding any sort of justification in terms of the "rightness" of killing one's opponent because they're "the bad guy" does little to diminish the fundamental horror of it IMHO. i dream of a world in which we are able to work out our problems without loss of life on ANY side... i also know that we are far from that state now, and that some things are worth fighting for. i just wish we didn't have to....
please don't think i blame those whose job it is to fight for this sorry state of affairs. i respect and honor all those who serve their country !

why do any of us build what we build ? when i look at the piles of kits in my local hobby shop, i just pick out stuff that looks interesting to me. i like the look of some afv's just like i am attracted to certain cars and not others. as i'm learning more about afv's, the historic aspect grows in importance, but i still wouldn't build something i didn't like the looks of.... am i too superficial, or just guilty of wanting to enjoy my modeling time & the results of my effort ?

the sheer amount of variations in German armor offer so many possibilities, and the number of kits available is so huge that u will be hard pressed to avoid building at least one or two pieces if u do more than a few models of afvs. (even General Shermanfreak has owned up to building a German item...)
the variety in camouflage as mentioned in another post is yet another factor (good practice subjects for airbrushing !)

Finally: u can always model modern german armor like the Leopard or Marder 1A3 ... we're all such good friends in NATO these days !

frosty

Darn tootin'! Frinstance, my passion for cottage cheese knows no bounds!

Ya gotta love us "Tread-Heads"

If nothing else, we ARE a passionate bunch!

Well, my intentions were not to turn this thread into a political discussion and I apologize for the trend that way. I merely wanted to state my personal preference when modeling German armor to stay away from SS topics. Erock, I totally understand why someone would model Wittmann’s Tiger and I don’t oppose it. However, I find no interest in modeling subjects like that myself. By the way, I think we are all waiting for some updated pics of that bad boy.

Larry, so that guy I saw about a month ago with the Das Reich t-shirt on was not a Nazi? Knowing what the symbol was, I found myself giving the poor guy a pretty dirty look and almost said something to him.

QUOTE: Lets remember that the Victors get to write the bulk of history, that not to condone what the Nazi's did but remember that all sides will commit what would be called war crime; it just depends on who wins.

This is true. An interesting example of this is the treatment of merchant ship crews by submariners who had just sunk the merchant ship. The "awful Hun" generally either ignored the floating merchantmen or, if the situation allowed, showed them so basic human kindness. On the other hand, American submariners regularly machine-gunned Japanese merchantmen who were floating in the water following a sinking.

American soldiers were certainly not beyond criminal activity and sexual assaults where they had defenseless civilian populations under their control, sadly.

However, based on patterns of behavior of the German soldier in the East, and of course Japanese behavior wherever they fought, I think it's still pretty clear whose soldiers were overall the worst behaved.

And as to the Holocaust, let's not forget that, contrary to post-war assertions to the contrary, the common German soldiier was often involved in the Holocaust, particularly on the Eastern Front. The book Frontsoldaten has lots of interesting stuff about this -- the way line german infantrymen participated in the the murder of Jewish civilians, sometimes set up as sort of a sporting event.

I'm a wargamer too, and I notice that the interest in German militaria shown at wargaming conventions goes beyond historical interest and often veers into adulation. I have a fellow wargamer friend who is Jewish and who has no problem wargaming WWII on the German side, but still shakes his head in amazement at the t-shirts you see worn by people admiring the work of such units as LSSAH, Das Reich and Totenkopf (all of which committed war crimes), and the insistance so many have on always playing the Germans. It takes me a little aback too, I must admit.

The ironic thing about this is that many of these self-same people are big-time flag wavers for the USA -- conservative patriot types. Why they don't back the USA all the way completely baffles me. (I don't want to allow my self to think about whether that is the direction they want the USA to go in.)

Sorry to take this is this direction, but I think it has to be said that these issues are the elephant in the room in a discussion of this topic.

I must be honest and say that I love armor all around, present and past, however I must admit that I have an affinity for WWII German armor and this might sound a bit silly but it's mostly because they were so massive, they have a great desing and look all around ready to put up a big and hard fight...

I'm rather facinated with the AAA and Flack guns that tried to blow my fathers Halifax out of the sky as well as the A/C he was douling with as Midupper Gunner.

I wasn’t going to post on the ethic question that’s been raised here but as i started this thread maybe I should.

Lets remember that the Victors get to write the bulk of history, that not to condone what the Nazi's did but remember that all sides will commit what would be called war crime; it just depends on who wins. Of cause im NOT including the holocaust as this was an indefensible crime.

I don’t like to think of this in terms politics or of what government did, more of the suffering and bravery of those who did the dirty work. I try to imagine you’re self as the 19yr old suffocating inside of a tank fighting only to stay alive!
So I suppose model making is in some strange way a tribute to those who lived and died in those terrible times.





Oh as yes they made very big Tanks!!! And lets face it a Churchill V Panther whos the better looking!