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M8 Armored Car in the Ardennes Winter WIP 7/27/08 *Complete* Figs IP

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  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:42 AM

Ron - Glad to have you back and thanks for catching up and giving you comment. I appreciate your time and effort.

Kevin - Thanks for looking and your comments. As far as the figures, I'm giving it the old school try. If after a few attempts, I can't improve to the point where it complements the model...well then I will move past figures. I will try some figures for my latest build and see how I do,

I do like the idea of footprints and wish I would have thought of it when I was doing the base...oh well.

Your builds and some other people on this forum are a good examples of the model can carry itself without figures. Thought I would try the whole spectrum but if figures don't work well, I have plenty of models to keep me busy.

Thanks Again

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by minimortar on Monday, August 11, 2008 9:51 PM

I like the way this came out too Mike and I'll certainly be using this thread as a guide for when ever I get back to my already in progress winter project. (Insert boot in the back end here) Altho the M8 is not one of my favorite armored cars, what you did to this does look quite nice!

I do understand the difficulties of doing figures (certainly not my strong suit). They can either add or subtract from the overall appearance of the subject matter. Your snow might be a little too 'deep' but sometimes just pressing boot prints from an old figure into the groundwork ('out' #1) instead of risking the possibility of making good figures look bad or bad figures look even worse (as in my case). My other 'out' is to just concentrate on doing one crew figure dismounted or standing on the (for example) engine deck with binocs... something simple like that to ease the pain (of doing multiple figures) and to help further achieve the "scale effect". Either case, if the crew is not 'around', I scatter some boot prints around the main subject.

However, I do realize that you do like to stick to your reference photo as close as you can and by all means, please do carry on!

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe

Mortars in Miniature
A Scale Model (Plus!) Collection of the Infantryman's Artillery

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: in the tank factory in my basement
Posted by biffa on Monday, August 11, 2008 8:25 PM
Glad i remembered to check this one out Mike it turned out great man you have depicted the photo perfectly IMHO, very nice work and i really enjoyed catching up on the last installments Smile [:)]  
Ron g.
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Friday, August 1, 2008 11:35 AM

AgentG - If the comments are on a problem with the build, I am all for making changes, but on the art side, like Frank S said, "I did it my way"

Thanks

SMJ - Thanks for the comments on the M8. There are a couple of spots I will touch with graphite before it comes out in Danbury.

As far as the figs...yep, I came to that conclusion myself. This is my next area to work on. Thank God Manny is around to give pointers. These were not great and would detract from the model but for my first time out of the box with figs, I though it was a good start.

The good news is I have both versions of the Hobbyboss M4 HST on the shelf. Also have a bunch of good research material. PM me if you need some.

The bad news is I have begun my next build, M119 105mm Howitzer in Afganistan. Also doing reserch for the build after that which I was planning M113A1 NASA Escape Vehicle. But that is not cast in stone yet.

If I was to switch to the HST, best guess is I would not be ready until ~late Sept/early Oct, after the M119. Would most likely do in conjunction with the M115 8 inch howitzer.

Catch me on the PM and Thanks for you comments and help.

Rounds Complete!! 

 

 

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Schroon Lake, NY
Posted by SMJmodeler on Friday, August 1, 2008 10:40 AM

redleg12: It worked, I can view the pic's!Party [party]  I was at a wi-fi site that I normally don't work from so that may have been the problem.

Barring the comments I've read here on your thread that the weathering is a bit too light...I'm mostly looking at your intrepretation/ replication of the photo and I must say, hats off my friend, masterfully doneBow [bow]!  Did you say this was one of your first winter camo' attempts?  If you liked it, which it appears you did, you'll find as you try some more you can achieve some real subtle effects with pre/post shading of the white airbrush work, white oils, etc... just like a traditional olive drab paint scheme would be handled.  Snow, even powder, although it's stark white...like other techniques can be varied to enhance the presentation too.  I'm VERY impressed with this build, and enjoyed our exchange of ideasMake a Toast [#toast].  Oh yeah, little FYI...that machine gun could use some graphite highlights.

As far as the figure...not bad...but IMO I think it would draw attention away from the success of the rest of your presentation.  Better to improve on the fig's first then add them to future dio's...

I'll be trying some new "snow" techniques on my Flakvierling, I will probably use your foam technique for the base...thanks for that idea! I hope you'll check in and give me your input.  

By the way, Hobbyboss has a Highspeed Tractor that I'd like to get and do the winter camo' scheme thing...any interest in picking one up yourself and we work on them concurrently?

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:39 PM

Panzerguy and RBaer - Thanks for the comments and the vote of confidence.

After going through artic training and numerous winter exercises during my time, and being in what seemed sometimes to be up to my eyballs in snow with military equipment next to me, I understand.  It is hard to explain to someone the starkness of snow in a military situation and at the same time the feeling it invokes. Part of that memory is why I was drawn to the picture and this build. 

Thanks guys

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:27 PM
 panzerguy wrote:

 RBaer wrote:
Redleg, you captured the essence of the pic. That was the point, wasn't it? As fas what I see in the pic, it looks to me like a freshly white-washed M8 making a path in virgin snow,  totally plausible in the time frame you're modelling, I think.  The starkness of the base just makes it look colder and more bleak to me. Well done.

   Sign - Ditto [#ditto]

   Spent two winters in Germany and there were a few times I found myself in chest deep snow with out one bit of vegetation showing. 

Done the same in Illinois, too.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: N.H.
Posted by panzerguy on Thursday, July 31, 2008 3:23 PM

 RBaer wrote:
Redleg, you captured the essence of the pic. That was the point, wasn't it? As fas what I see in the pic, it looks to me like a freshly white-washed M8 making a path in virgin snow,  totally plausible in the time frame you're modelling, I think.  The starkness of the base just makes it look colder and more bleak to me. Well done.

   Sign - Ditto [#ditto]

   Spent two winters in Germany and there were a few times I found myself in chest deep snow with out one bit of vegetation showing. 

"Happiness is a belt fed weapon"

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:52 PM
Redleg, you captured the essence of the pic. That was the point, wasn't it? As fas what I see in the pic, it looks to me like a freshly white-washed M8 making a path in virgin snow,  totally plausible in the time frame you're modelling, I think.  The starkness of the base just makes it look colder and more bleak to me. Well done.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:24 PM

Mobious - Thanks for the comments.

I know how everyone feels...but everyone's artistic (or scale) desire is different. Replicating the picture, the only way at proper scale size to show the trees in the distance would be as a shadow box. The base is not that big to show the distant items properly.

I can't help it....as an engineer I look for scale....this is not an argument of is the cup half empty or full, but IMO is twice as big as it need to be...my art is scale reality...sorry if I offend the art crowd!!

SMJ - Where are you???

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    September 2007
  • From: Relocating
Posted by Mobious on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 4:03 PM

 Hey redleg12,

 I made my Christmas list and the M8 was in the top ten. The snow looks great as does the winter camo. One point that has already been discussed but I still have to say my peace is the base is a little plain. Adding the fence row and a tree or two that are in the pic I think would tie it even more to the photo.My 2 cents [2c]

 Overall it is an excellent work. I hope when it snows at my house it turns out half as well as your example.

 Best Regards,

 

"It's a problem of applied physics" Roy Brown

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:55 PM

Nope, nothing different. They should load. I am at work and our system blocks the pics. As soon as I get home tonight I will check if there is a problem.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Schroon Lake, NY
Posted by SMJmodeler on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:25 PM
redleg12: MAN I'm bummedGrumpy [|(]!!!  For whatever reason the final pic's DID NOT load on my system.  All your progress pics were fine...did you load them different this time?  I'm excited to see how this bad boy came out but I'm blind folded...Blindfold [X-)]

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:22 AM

Manny - Thanks for your comments and support on the build.

As for the figs, the patches and rank were Verlinden decals, eyes were Archer dry tranfer. The trick on the face painting is appreciated. As I said these were the first figs for me, and they were the old Tamiya figs which are not the greatest but your help is deeply appreciated.

Specter - Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    May 2007
Posted by Specter on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:49 AM
Good job RedlegCool [8D]Thumbs Up [tup]
Seth
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:48 AM

You can't argue with a clear pic for use as a reference...you are right about the weather...during the opening stages of the battle (particularly when the offense started) the ground did not have snow on it---it was frozen...Later, when the Germans were put on the defensive, there was planty of snow and this is what most folks think of when they hear "Battle of the Bulge"...I feel as though you pulled off replicating what you see in the pic very nicely...

Now whether it would be more interesting or not with a little more "wear and tear" is a matter of opinion, but it might stray from your goal which was to reproduce as best you could the image in the pic. I feel you did that extremely well...most "new" whitewash jobs are very stark (if this was actually a new one)...

As far as the figs, not bad for a first try...the rank insignia and colors look good for the most part--are those dry-transfers for the ranks? Try different colors for the faces to eliminate the one-dimensional look to the faces.  I work from dark to light, which means my base for flesh is usually raw umber and then lightened progressively w/ blending, etc...

Nice job!!!

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Monday, July 28, 2008 9:47 PM

Tigerman - Thanks for your comments.

For light reading, check this military report of the weather during the battle of the buldge.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA121480&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

During the early stages of the German advance the weather included some freeze and thaws which would have made it muddy. The weather changed on the 21 thru 22. Heavy snow and cold. On the 23 it cleared and stayed clear thru the 27. This vehicle would have been traveling on the 21 & 22 in the snow.

I don't know when the picture was taken or where but I cannot disagree that maybe later on it was full of mud though based on the report I included, temps were in the 20 degree F from the 21 through about Christmas.

I know....here I am with reality again...sorry, I like history

A model...like a picture is a snapshot in time. I have seen other shots like this of other vehicles in the snow without the mud bath.

But as stated above, I understand your opinion, accept it and as always thank you for it. even though were not all muddy I hope you enjoyed it just the same.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Monday, July 28, 2008 8:11 PM
Redleg, I think you emulated your ref quite accurately, but I can't help but see it more weathered than that from a logistic point of view. I see more mud and dirt. That pic must have been snapped as it left after being winterized. It just couldn't look like that for more than few minutes in those conditions. JMHO.

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Monday, July 28, 2008 6:19 PM

Bill = Thanks for your comments and your keen observations.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Monday, July 28, 2008 3:02 PM

Redleg,

I think you accomplished your desired objective here beautifully in replicating the finish in the photo in particular. I think the reason that some vegetation poking up through the snow would look right is because of how the "off road" nature the scene you've got looks/feels vs. what's in the photo. In the photo you see sparse trees off some distance because it's an actual road that's been partially cleared and so any vegetation would've been covered by that and the newly fallen snow. Just an observation on the differences and why the eye looks for something even when it's not there.

Fabulous job on replicating the snow effect all around, definitely a keeper. Thumbs Up [tup] Thumbs Up [tup]

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Monday, July 28, 2008 10:34 AM
 redleg12 wrote:

Marc - Thanks, hopefully I will see you in Danbury!

 

Oh Yeah... almost forgot about that 

Marc  

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Monday, July 28, 2008 10:11 AM

Karl - Let me first say P*ssed....Absolutely not!!!! It is this type of discussions that makes this forum great. It allows someone to learn and see various opinions.

As far as "justifying", no, what I was trying to express was my view....I "justified" this build when I began...not at the completion. Not being "mainstream" sometimes I feel I have to give a concept of where I am coming from.

For me it's not the destination, but the journey. I was thrilled to see the level of participation and comment on the "build" and details. The final completion is as you say a matter of "art". As an engineer and retired Army officer I tend more towards "reality" in my art. In that vein, yes, I followed the picture. But the great thing of this forum is to present multiple views and thoughts. This is what makes this great for a newbie who is trying to get ideas. IMO neither is wrong, just different.

If I was trying to create a build to get a BIS...yes I would go your route, I would further build a lot of German armor. The only BIS for me that counts is the felling I have at completion. When my models are in a show, it is for "show" and any award is nice extra. But for those who are into competition, and feel the "thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" I would agree with your route. It is more impressive to the judges.

I knew there would be a group of readers who would be looking for this to be a "chips ahoy" build. Many of the winter camo does look that way after extended use as I am sure if this vehicle survived, a few weeks later it looked that way too. As I have said many times, I am in the minority here. I build US and tend to build for experience or from historical photos.

I submit there is a difference from a diorama builder and an armor builder. The armor builder builds the vehicle, the diorama builder build a scene. You are a diorama builder who adds armor to the scene (or cars). It is the difference between hard rock and classical music, both art, both good but both different. Yet both sides can learn and teach the other to expand their horizons. In that respect, I have hoped I have learned from your "hard rock" and it has helped improved some of my "symphonies"

I also agree with you on the display as a vehicle should have grass, snow etc around it. There are many who build and don't mount or if they do use stained wood. This is a personal preference for me and for others I understand all the views. This is rock, country, jazz and classical. Again it is all art, but all different.

I greatly appreciate your comments and those of all of the members of this forum. I don't expect you all to agree....if you did, it would be boring. I always want comments, good or critical, its how I and others learn & teach. If I ever find myself getting P*ssed, it's time for a new hobby.

Sorry for the long and protracted answer but I though I need to fully explain so no one takes offense.

Disatermaster & Panzerguy - Thanks for looking and commenting...see above...but please always give me your comments. As I said, it's what make this group great.

Marc - Thanks, hopefully I will see you in Danbury!

Ogrejohn & Doc - Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Cygnus X-1
Posted by ogrejohn on Monday, July 28, 2008 8:16 AM
Very nice. The snow effects are great!
  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: The Plains of Kansas
Posted by doc-hm3 on Monday, July 28, 2008 7:17 AM
  Mike, she turned out great! This little scene makes me want to grab a jacket. The snow looks very convincing. That turret is jam packed with detail! 

All gave some and some gave all.

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Monday, July 28, 2008 5:54 AM
If the snow around here where as fluffy as that it might not be such a PITA to shovel the driveway.  Great job Mike. Looking forward to seeing it in April.

Marc  

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Monday, July 28, 2008 12:00 AM

Well, Mike; I have to say that you really nailed the look of that photo you presented. It really is almost an exact replica of the scene.

Fair enough--hey, if you're happy with it, that's all that matters.

I'll just leave you with this thought--when I build a diorama, I always have the thought in the back of my mind that I never want to have to explain or justify the completed scene as it is portrayed--it should tell its own story. I always try to build and finish it to that end. Wink [;)] Sometimes, things that translate perfectly in a photograph--where their authenticity cannot be denied--don't translate as well in "Art". Something to think about...and I hope it doesn't p*ss you off, because I really mean it in the most genuinely helpful way. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Building models on my kitchen counter top~somewhere in North Carolina
Posted by disastermaster on Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:31 PM

 

http://th114.photobucket.com/albums/n265/Velin4eto/Emoticons/th_am.gifYou know me, I'm a weathering freak so this kind'a comes off looking really clean to me, however, some chips and mild weathering would add greatly to the interest factor.

 The image “http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2259/biggrinzy0.gif” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors. Doesn't take a thing from your abilities though, it's just the way you wanted it and that is what matters in the end. You've put a lot of thought/effort here and have come across with a real http://th46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/ah-bee/emoticons/th_coolpics.gif"build of a picture"

 

                                                                DISASTERMASTER 

On the kitchen counter somewhere in North Carolina

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Sunday, July 27, 2008 7:27 PM
 the doog wrote:

Mike--awesome!---but it ain't finished yet, IMO!

I would like to see you take some base color, and drybrush/chip those grab handles, and think of the areas where the crews' climbing on the vehicle would necessarily rub off that whitewash. An overall "outlining" of the panel lines with the side of a wide.flat brush (kinda like a chipping effect?) would look cool too--the vehicle looks a little too pristine white for me....

It needs some very sparse vegetation sticking up through the snow--if you really look at snowy fields, you'll always see a stray blade of grass or twig sticking up. 

Your snow looks great! Deep, fluffy--but IMHO, uninteresting--too white and unbroken. Good and nice in real life, but for a diorama, not aesthetically the best choice, IMO.

Either that or a road sign to give it some sense of place.

The figures are not bad--the first one reminds me of John McCain! Whistling [:-^] It would be better, IMO, to put them in the model because it wouldn't make much sense to have the vehicle just out there in the snow, unattended. You almost have to have figs in this one. If it was a tank, you could button it up, but not here.

I can't get over the fluffy snow! What is it exactly?  

Doog - As always I value your opinion. I'm not sure if you could see the wear marks from the other pic so...

As far as the figs in the vehicle, I have tried a few but they are all too "fat". Plus for the driver or asst, you need a full body, sitting with legs extended. I have looked but could not find any. Also felt if I clogged up the holes....you would not see the interior.

I know....to pristine

This photo was my guide. No grass showing....but I fully understand your opinion.

Snow is woodlands scenics snow.

Since, I build "the vehicle" and will have a scene to support (rather than no base or an all wood base) I guess I'll go with no figs and let the vehicle carry on its own. I know Doog Boohoo [BH] but you are a great dio person where the scene carries the model.

If I was going to enter this in a dio catagory, I would filly agree with you. This would be in a vehicle catagory and I would hope (at least at an AMPS meet) the vehicle is what counts.

Thanks for your opinoin. It does help and please don't take my rant above the wrong way, just wanted to give you my thought when planning and executing this build. I have not put it in the cabinet yet.....I'll be thinking.

Hmmmmm...I'm rambling....

Panzerguy, I presume more weathering you were looking also for more wear and chips??

I have the Dragon set on order....arriving soon. I did get the Firestorm tankers in winter...too fat full body, half body driver does not work....3/4 body AG would be noticeable from above.

As I said after coming back to the hobby 3 years ago, these were my first attempt at figs. I'll keep plugging (though I don't think I could ever match the O-B-1 of figs...Manny). But that is the best part of this, I'll keep trying and collecting IMHO from everyone.  

Thanks for looking in and your comments.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: N.H.
Posted by panzerguy on Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:10 PM

 

  Redleg The M8 looks great. I would have given it a little more of a weathering job but thats me.

   As far as the figs go Dragon makes some that are much better looking than the Tamiya one's.Also Verlinden has a US tanker set in cold weather gear and a tanker conversion set with parts to assemble tankers in wet and cold weather gear.

   Looking foward to seeing this and youself at AMPS

"Happiness is a belt fed weapon"

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