The lack of respect for Mecha.

In my defense, I was only trying point out some of the possible "Whys" as to your perception, Vile One... I certainly don't begrudge anyone's Sci-fi choices... As I pointed out, I do Sci-Fi, but only a narrow portion of it, since it carries over what I do in scale work...  As for Japanimation, I absolutely hate it, and simply because I can't stand the artwork... Especially those stupid eyes on anime characters... So if I can't get into the visual, I certainly can't get into the story-line... 

I thought I'd really like the new Battlestar Galactica as well as I did the original, but even though the stories are much better, without the bad acting coupled with the campy and predictable bullsh*t, and ridiculous characters (Boxy and Muffet? Gimme a freakin' break) of the 70's, the visual and sound effects bother me... 'Course, giving Boomer and Starbuck sex-change operations didn't help, either...  And don't get me started on Buck Roger's in the 25th Century and that freakin' robot, Tweakie... And for a Colonel, Wilma Dearing was one stupid officer... But, I digress...

Suffice to say that, while you may think y'all are "looked down upon", in all likelyhood, you aren't, as a group... Heck, even within the scale community, there's plenty of that going around with the 1/35th guys calling the 1/72 guys "Jewlers", and the Brail-scalers coming right back callin' us "Blacksmiths"...  The display guys raggin' on dio-guys, jets vs props, on and on...

And I don't care if a gundam or whatever could knock out an entire Panzer Division, the Borg would have the whole mecha bunch assimilated in an afternoon...

Hans von Hammer wrote:

I thought I'd really like the new Battlestar Galactica as well as I did the original, but even though the stories are much better, without the bad acting coupled with the campy and predictable bullsh*t, and ridiculous characters (Boxy and Muffet? Gimme a freakin' break) of the 70's, the visual and sound effects bother me... 'Course, giving Boomer and Starbuck sex-change operations didn't help, either...  And don't get me started on Buck Roger's in the 25th Century and that freakin' robot, Tweakie... And for a Colonel, Wilma Dearing was one stupid officer... But, I digress...

Hey! I loved Buck Roger's in the 25th Century! But then as a hot blooded boy I was paying too much attentionto the shiny uniform female characters were wearing... ^ ^

For Battlestar Galactica, I didn't see enough episode to form any opinion...

For some reason I'm not keenly interested into TV Sci-Fi shows nowadays - and thinking I used to be a StarTrek geek... -__-;

'nuff rambling from me...

smeagol the vile wrote:

There is a real reason why I bring this topic up, actually, and you hit it on the nose.  It came from Hans post on another forum about the abuse of PE and Resin aftermarket parts. The fact that Scifi and Anime kits leave so much room for interpretation.  There is very little in the way of AM parts besides conversion kits, metal upgrades (which arent really replacement parts like PE but upgrade parts, no instructions or specific placement). Over the my gundam building life I have done so many things that were not in the instructions, different color schemes, modifications, add ons, personal interpretations.  Granted there not the best mod jobs, but they were my early work (im still happy with the mod work on one of my kits, granted the painting im not.  Its on my www.bakuc.com its the heavyarms).   I just think there missing out on a large oppertunity to expand their skills.  Most mecha modelers dont get their fundimentals, which everyone here has, but the Scale builders tend to not get the imagination part that the mecha ones have.

But we do have Wave & Kotobukiya option parts, numerous resin upgrades or conversions (if you have a friend in Japan). Heck the Mobius LIS Cariot hadn't been out for a month when aftermarket resin & PE upgrade kits were out for it.

Yeah, you can buy your way to a damned fine kit in military genres, but it also takes a higher skill than kits assembling a kit to put one together. I've got a friend putting together a Royal class Eduard FW-190 who nomaly build scifi & tanks. He's having a fun time building it but it definately upped the level of skill needed. 

Logically, giant robots are a damned stupid thing. Big lumbering targets. But I still love them and love building them. Which, for the most part, is why I build.

Personally, I dont think the borg could (but im not a fan of star trek) and as far as buck rodgers, I could go without, Id rather have my Duck dodgers in the 24th and a half century, thank you very much.

I say all of this though because I see the best people on these forums at least dabbling (dabbling mean putting out amazing products) in almost all categories, you do air, armor, dios hans, doog does tanks, dios, cars.  Etc Etc Etc, but the sci-fi guys seem to be stuck in our own corner and noone comes and joins us (besides me, but im special)

 

Personally, I dont think the borg could...

They'd take 'em down like African Driver Ants can take down an Elephant... 

but the sci-fi guys seem to be stuck in our own corner and noone comes and joins us

Wait'll I show my Galactica hangar bay in about 6 months... 

Hans von Hammer wrote:

I thought I'd really like the new Battlestar Galactica as well as I did the original, but even though the stories are much better, without the bad acting coupled with the campy and predictable bullsh*t, and ridiculous characters (Boxy and Muffet? Gimme a freakin' break) of the 70's, the visual and sound effects bother me...

Between all the sound in space and the angst everywhere else, the new Battlestar Galactica just doesn't do it for me...  If I want to watch people angst at each other, I'll watch the daytime soaps...geesh.  

I don't get anime...I'm not interested in asian chicks, and no one has that big of eyes, or an upside down 'v' for a nose.  I don't think even the doog could get his hair to be that spiky...Even if the vehicles/weapons are cool looking, I can't get interested unless there is some form of a real world, or inherent interest. that probably explains why so many modelers will build an x-wing but shy away from your stylized robots.

That being said, if some mainstream company were to come out with a few 'mechs from the battletech universe, I'd buy 'em and build 'em in an instant, and probably come back for more. There's a legitimate history there, even if it is fiction, that can be modeled accurately.

Just my 

Cheers,
Alex 

cardshark_14 wrote:

That being said, if some mainstream company were to come out with a few 'mechs from the battletech universe, I'd buy 'em and build 'em in an instant, and probably come back for more. There's a legitimate history there, even if it is fiction, that can be modeled accurately.

The funny thing is IIRC, at least some of the mechs in the Battletech universe were "lifted" from existing designs from various anime series (including Macross and Dougram(?)) and given alternate "identities". Many of these have been kitted in their "original" forms and have been available for many years.

Phil_H wrote:

cardshark_14 wrote: That being said, if some mainstream company were to come out with a few 'mechs from the battletech universe, I'd buy 'em and build 'em in an instant, and probably come back for more. There's a legitimate history there, even if it is fiction, that can be modeled accurately. The funny thing is IIRC, at least some of the mechs in the Battletech universe were "lifted" from existing designs from various anime series (including Macross and Dougram(?)) and given alternate "identities". Many of these have been kitted in their "original" forms and have been available for many years.

While that is true to some extent, most of those original anime robots look like, well, like anime robots.  FASA created weapons that were much more believable and realistic, and nowhere near as stylized.  They also created a rich historical universe, so a modeler could model a particular brigade's unit, and still be accurate about it.  See what I mean:

Example 1:

vs.

The second drawing looks like it would be mechanically sound and an effective weapon, instead of something akin to a power ranger.

Cheers,
Alex

cardshark_14 wrote:

The second drawing looks like it would be mechanically sound and an effective weapon, instead of something akin to a power ranger. Cheers, Alex

Hi Alex, 

So you like the design of the second pic hey? It's a Macross original and was kitted in the early 80's.

The "support" mechs from Macross were more functional and utilitarian in design than most.

EDIT: You might find this one familiar too

Yea, alot of those designs were lifted (A HUGE hunk of robotech was origionally SDF Macross)

Macross is a good starting point, actuially for people like hans, that dont necesserialy like the giant robot thing.  The VFs in macross transform.  There fighers (all based of pre existing planes, lightning, raptor, tomcat, etc) in which the engines are different, there the legs of the robot unit (origionally could just come out inorder to do fast turns and maneuvers) and then changed into a standing unit.  There are many MAcross kits out there that can transform completly, so you can build the plane (which I know you guys love) and a robot at the same time.

I just think that while mecha builders NEED the scale experiance,  and scalers dont need the mecha experiance, it would still help them ALOT to get it.  Just as an excercise in creativity and non canon.  To build something that doesnt have reference pics, to see what you yourself is capable of, instead of just following with what is already there.

You can even use real world as an example.  I took modern sniper squads for an example of one of my kits (the CO being the spotter and the subordiannt taking the shot)  I used 2 Zaku I sniper kits for it.  Both in a urban scheme (panzer gray, light dry brushing, all the markings in gray or black, there visible but hard to see if your not looking for them.  I modded the one rifle, took the barrel off, saved down the handle, leaving just the scope and a grip, added a wire going up to the sensor on the head of the mecha.  The other I build straight with the rifle.  So I have a spotter and a shooter.

agentg wrote:

I know nothing about Gundams/Mecha/etc., but I know a well built model when I see it. At the recent IPMS show here in Vegas a young man entered some superb mecha. His painting, detailing, and general level of construction was beautiful. I wanted to get his name but he disappeared before I had the chance. One was black/white and had Japenese police markings. I wanted that baby bad! Hell I wanted to know what kit it was or was built from so I could do it myself.

That's a Patlabor, baby! (check my avatar).

I am 42 and have been building models most of my life. I run the small IPMS club in town, head up the annual contest, go to most of our monthly public meetings and do as much as I can to get kids interested in the hobby and help adults return to it.  I found out what Mecha was for the first time about six years ago. Before that, it was just 'those wierd crazy robot things" .  I was part of a brand new upstart club in a tiny town in central California.  One of the members who normally built cars came in with something...I forget what, and that got my interest. I went over to his house and he had 0083 on the TV. That did it for me, right then and there.

And now, as I sit here with a MS06S ZakuII MG Char special (the new one with literally hundreds of parts) my club members are blown away by the quality and content. They still make thier jokes, but when i bring in something new they gather around it just as much as we gather around the latest-build zero or 2008 Mustang.   I have built a little bit of everything over the years, and find gunpla to be some of the most challenging.

 

David

 

I say, build what you want, for yourself.  Rivet Nazis can take a flying f.........well, you get the picture.

Beyond that, everyone should show some courtesy to others.  Yes, I know, that's not the way the world works, all the time, but I think most of us do behave with manners towards our fellow modelers.

So, for example, if we're in our monthly club meeting, and a fellow member brings a kit and it's not something we would build, we can still appreciate the work that went into it, and judge it on its merits.

As to anime in general, and mecha specifically, there's a lot of talent out there, at both ends, both in producing kits, and in putting them together.

Regards,

Brad

the Baron wrote:

So, for example, if we're in our monthly club meeting, and a fellow member brings a kit and it's not something we would build, we can still appreciate the work that went into it, and judge it on its merits.

 

DING DING DING !!!  we've got a winner !!!!      Right on ! 

If this Kind of thinking and Approach towards all aspects of our hobby, would Spread around EVENLY in the modelers Community... Maybe there would be .... better inter-relations !!!  

If you get nailed to JUDGE a subject you are not Familliar or Don't Care about.. TELL it to the Head Judge and Switch with someone less Bias about it...  I hate seeing.. "NOT JUDGED!"  on my entry cards... cause !  not enough data or knowledge about the subject !!!

I can tell if the paint sucks, or glue is visible, finger prints in the finish ! silvering of the Decals...Overdone pastels... and so on !!!     judging what ever it is in front of you:  a Mech or sci-fi subject or Historically correct Figure or AFV's ... 

My club has 15 members and We all build different subject...  I mean ALL of us have different Themes.  and we all get along fine !  But we all do it for Ourselves...  and use and share building or finishing techniques...  What ever drives our boats... is Personal !  and the friendship is the Most important part !

 

 

 

 

I think Bandai have contributed a lot to the lack of 'respect' (whatever that means) for Mecha modelling. Just look at the front page of the BAKUK website. Most of the gundams photographed there look like toys, and in many ways Bandai promotes that look with releasing snap kits which they say don't require any more finishing than a trimming of sprue nubs, and perhaps a panel line marker. Look at those colour combination! Primary, kid-style colours, which really do say 'this is a toy.' But the thing Bandai have on their side is that their formula has been a massive success - just not in the realm of the skilled western modeler.

I won't define an unpainted snap-together kit as a model. A model has implications of craft and effort that a snap-together can't.

A scale modeler probably wouldn't dream of leaving the plain plastic as the 'finish'. Whereas for Bandai, it's perfectly acceptable. And because gunpla promotes this level of finishing as acceptable, scale modelers frown on it as not up to their standard.

I'm not a big fan of gundam, but I do love mecha in general. Kywell shows what can be accomplished with a mecha-style kit. Note, however, that its' been finished in a WWII style, using the techniques and skills of scale modelers. If he had drawn panel lines in, and finished the raw plastic (yes I know it was resin, but just sayin') with a spray of dullcoat, and maybe coloured some areas, would he have got any accolades? Yet this sort of thing the gunpla ethic says is acceptable.

However, Bandai's approach, while populist, may just well bring back people to modelling. Look at their just released VF-25 mecha. In deferrence to the gunpla modelling method, it's molded in colour, and also comes with stickers as well as decals. On the macrossworld forum this has created a thread 60 pages long and counting. I've never seen such interest in a release of a particular model. A lot of toy fans are saying this will be the first model they make, since they love the subject so much. That's simply aweswome to hear.

So as much as Bandai loses my respect for engendering a new generation of gunpla builders with low building standards (as per a scale modeler) I have to give them an accolade for bringing back people to modeling.

But for the reasons I've outlined above, you should not be surprised when scale modelers have a lack of 'respect' for mecha modelling. Perhaps a good dose of Hyperweapon would open their eyes to the possibilities, and not just what Bandai have made popular.

First I want to say that I respect your opinon. Second, Gundam kits ARE scale models. They may just be snap kits, but they come in varying scales, 1/144, 1/100, and 1/60 are the most common ones. As for that VF-25, not saying that its a bad kit, cause its not, but the Master Grade(1/100) and Perfect grade(1/60) kits for gundam have been around longer and often times have more detail than any A/C or armor kit. I know people who put everything they are into a gunpla kit and it comes out amazingly well done. The bare mininmum for gunpla is not what every mecha modeler wants but I know myself, sometimes I just want the option of having the bot to look at and take pictures of without all the major work. dont get me wrong, I have my major project kits, but the joy of making the kit is not so much how you built the kit, so much as it is that you had fun. so before you go and make a foolish statements, please do some research into the topic you are critisizeing.

Sorry if I crushed any toes, I have been watching Gurren Lagann and have way to much mecha loving power running un-checked in my system(that and a crapload of Mountain Dew). I guess I just feel that strongly about my #1 prefered model kits. Sorry.

Not sure which of my comments were 'foolish', or poorly researched. I've been building all sorts of japanese anime mecha robots since the mid-1980's so I feel I know the subject pretty well. Gurren Lagann's a lot of fun, have to agree there.

Sorry for biteing your head off like that, its just that I really love my particular area of the hobby. I cant stand it when people just dismiss gunpla as less usefull lego toys. and sorry if I myself made some "foolish" coments, sometimes I just let things get to far under my skin.

as for GL, I am on episode 23 or 24 and loving every hotblooded second of it.

http://www.bakuc.com/ is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

You go on their page and see 1 good kit for every 20 snapped or pannel lined only kits.  There is the problem, but its not what you think.  Mecha builders only get exposure to mecha kit sites.  Site with the experts (like this one) have tiny mecha population and they feel they dont fit in.  There are good mecha sites, but there elitist sites.

http://www.bakuc.com/ is a contest yes, but the galleries you see are people's galleries.  People post what they did, if there a beginner (just snapping) or someone whos an expert, using AM parts and upgrades and heavy modification to a kit (like the kind of thing that the ipms classifies as intermediate and whatnot) http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/alkaiser/2964 (for example).

 

I havent had the time or inspiration to work on a mecha kit in a while, I am going to for a upcoming GB though.  Just look at my bakuc site, all of the stuff there was from before I started doing scale, when I was on a mecha only forum.  None of my stuff got anything but harsh unfriendly criticism from the elitist mecha forums.  For every one good thing they would say 20 bad things, and NOT tell you how to fix it.  I cant tell you how many times my kits had wierd bubbling on the paint (look at the heavyarms) noone ever told me how to fix it.  They said pull the can back (I did, didnt work)  now I know it was a problem with the can. (and cans being a problem in general.  I have improved 10 fold since coming here.

So when I say lack of respect, I also mean the lack of a welcoming community for mecha.  We dont poo poo it and shoe it away, but we dont embrace with open arms either.  If we did we would have a whole crop of good people coming here learning from all of you, and teaching some of you some stuff.  (like for example, LED instilation, and extreme articulation modification.

As far as being toys go... I have seen some army men (granted, they wre brittans figures, not green army men) but toy soldiers none the less, that are manufactured and look better then some people on this site's work, and better then some figure kit molding.  So... Toys arent always a bad thing.

Lastly, I DARE you to admit that you did not, once, ever, in your life, pick up one of your model planes, and zoom it around the room, or pretend to strafe a tank kit with it atleast one time.  I'll admit I have (and my zero isnt finished yet)

The go to MMC or Maschinen Krueger or even the anime section of SSM. Understand that building a 800+ kit wether snap together or glue is not easy. Now imagine building a tank with a full interior, elevating & traversing gun, workable link track, etc and all molded in acceptable colors... makes it easier for a kid to build, yes? And there's nothing like encouraging the next generation. Yes, Gundams can be built to be played with. Kids like to do that. But they can also be built to exceptional levels of paint & detail.

Yea, when I was building mecha I was one of the most prolific builders on mmc, putting up an entry for every contest (untill I got tired of the judging rules and such (When I put up 3 kits, the WORST of them got through to the second round, and the two better didnt).

I have only really started building tanks and planes and figures, but there EXTREMLY easy and simple builds.  When I built that PG Zaku, that thing was a BEAST to just snap together. 

smeagol the vile wrote:

Lastly, I DARE you to admit that you did not, once, ever, in your life, pick up one of your model planes, and zoom it around the room, or pretend to strafe a tank kit with it atleast one time.  I'll admit I have (and my zero isnt finished yet)

No finished model goes into my display case without a few obligatory flyby passes. Ocassionally I even chase my little children with them, much to their delight.

Sorry if this is a repeat, I didn't read all the response.

1.  Like what you build and build what you like.  Who cares what other people think, unless you are building a commission....

2.  Who needs to grow up?  Whether the subject matter is real or not is imaterial.  Look at the quality of the work that goes into it.  I could care less about cars, but I still go look and admire the work.  I also read the articles about how the achieve different affects, that is how I learn and can apply those skills.  No one is asking anyone to step over to the "Dark Side" and build what we built but give us our credit.

3.  The Skills do transfer.  How many aircraft builders kringe whenever they find a Natural Metal Finish (NMF)?  Now look at an NX-01, Is that any less challenging than building an F-104 and doing the different panel colors?  I might argue that an Aztec pattern is a lot more difficult.

 Just my 2 cents worth, maybe you need better friends..... Just kidding......  My Dad was the same way until I beat him in a few contests and he learned  a thing or two from me....

Well, I have decided to address the other side of this issue.  I am constantly mentioning Bakuc to you guys, and FSM to those guys, well I went to bakuc and posted a more to the point and blunt post about it.

http://forum.bakuc.com/index.php/topic,523.msg5615.html#new

thats the link, hes the post itself

 

"Alright guys.  I am going to be blunt about this and straight forward.

Our kits look like toys when there out of the box.  They snap together, there molded in color, and articulated.  If you do not build mecha the general consensus is that mecha kits are toys.

Sites like Bakuc do nothing but enforce this idea.  I go on the main page and for every good, finished, painted, modded kit (something that would fall under intermediate under international plastic modelers society guidelines) there are 20 or 30 kits just pannel lined or just snapped.

Many of you know I have been around on a few forums, samurai monkey, hobby fanatics, etc.  The main thing I see on those is that the people who know what they are doing are elitist and really dont help people.  They just complain about new people asking the same questions over and over.  Where sites like Finescale.com which I currently am an active participant, though its mainly scale (some scifi, me, puma adder, etc) they go out of their way to help Everyone, explaining every step and giving some of the most indepth and good instruction I have ever seen.

That, compared to 'go use the search' is the main reason we are not respected.  Our beginners never learn how to build.  They think that leaving seams, gate marks, flash, and not painting it.  You look at a beginner scale kit... I was going to explain, but a picture is worth 1000 words.
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced (a personal favorite)
Expert OR (from chuckw's amazing wip on the helldiver)

Now, with that (no offence to anyone) we have the gunpla scale (I cant link image because Bakuc has crap for the images because of that magnification thing)

Beginner http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/zero_saviour/2911 or http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/alllla/2053
Intermediate http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/smeagolthevile/595 (to show that Im not playing favorites)
Advanced http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/blu_bing/2536 or http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/bsyamato/2807
Expert  http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/donc0023/2883 or http://www.bakuc.com/modeler/nath_1977/1168

 

Now, hopefully this will show you the kind of stark contrast between the beginners on each side.  I know that atleast one of the people for expert on gunpla has done scale before doing this.
If we are going to get any respect we need to start teaching our newbies the proper fundamentals of how to build these things...
at the bare minimum these points should be DRILLED into their head
PAINT IS NOT AN OPTION (gundam markers do NOT count)
SEAMS SHOULD NOT BE SEEN

Look, I am a musician, music and art are intertwined, you can not draw without knowing how to draw a straight line.  You can not play a violin without knowing how to hold the bow.  You can not build a model kit without knowing how to fix a seam.

If we do not do this we will still be the little wierd otaku people sitting in the corner by ourselves playing with our 'toys' because if we dont fix this crap thats going on, thats all we will be building, toys."

 

I hope you guys dont mind me using a few of your pics/wips for this demonstration, if you do ill change it.

Dang..... I see your point...... that newbe gunpla modeler needs to investin some classes or sign up for this forum. preferably both! I myself need to crack down on my armor seams on some of my kits. But thats why I bought that 11 pc file set by Hasegawa

hi to all , specially to smeagol that break balls to put people here..(i joke)

first of all forgive my english (never learned it).I feel the "lack of respect" problem like a non problem, simply who don't respect the mecha kits don't knows the difficulty to make them good works: this before image show the toy..   and this after a few work

i've started to build normal scale kits (aircraft, some tanks, ships, an y-wing, stratch builded figures with milliput, fantasy lead figures etc..) from 1990 or 91, till the 2000 or before. two years ago i have discovered another way for hobby .. the mecha! so i passed to static kits to "semistatic" kits.I think is more difficult to make a good look on a mech that a normal kit for a lots of things. The only thing countig is improving theskill and the pleasure to do a good work to show.  

that's all for today i go to eat

Elitists... god how I've come to hate that word. Any time somebody wants to instantly know something and doesn't want to take the time to search a few threads and gets told to read the threads already in session the forum gets tagged as elitists.

When, truly, was the last time a question got shot down in flames on Samurai Monkey or Starship Modeler? They generally all get answered even the ones that have been asked 40,000,000 times before. Yeah, we all get tired of "what's the correct color for the left hand piece on the underside of the engineering section 3rd panel forward" when there really isn't a correct color and there's already a thread answering that question. So sometimes folks get a little short. It happens, it's just the way things are. Even here.

I'll gladly answer any question on a project, some are a bit difficult (like how to properly hold a cordless Dremel) without images or movies but I do my best. One of the charter's of the CoMMiES is no secrets.  No hidden techniques, no special methods, no nothing. I'm happy to talk about my experience with Alcad, Tamiya tape, my latest weathering attempts, what ever. We all do. Yes, there are people on the various forums who won't, but that doesn't make that particular board elitist, just makes that person a jerk.

It's odd, I build Bandai & Kotobukiya when I'm taking a break from more strenuous builds, because I can assemble them easily and concentrate on what I like (painting & weathering).  The fit & engineering makes Tamiya & Hasegawa look like they were machined out of butter with a stub of wood. Relaxes me enough to take on another resin kit. 

Its amazing how quickly the attitude of mecha modelers makes me want to tell them to go F themselves and leave the forum.  In one day of posting my thread about this on bakuc it has already turned into attacking other people.

Let me ask you guys the same point I brought up there.  Is it aright, if your helping a beginner learn to build, not to drill the fundimentals of doing it into their head?\

(for a nice little anaolgy, since I know more then one of us are musicians, would you teach a guitar student how to play, and right away go teaching them rock tunes, before they even learn how to tune the instrument, or hold it correctly?)

I work a lot of Make & Takes at various ventues, teaching the basics of sprue nippers, glue work, instructions, etc. Once the boring painful part is over we reenforce it by letting them paint the model with an airbrush. Teaching them control and lack of revrence to paint instructions all in one swell foop.

I've got horror stories about trying to assemble the PL ST Scorpion kit. Gads what a horrible kit.

Fundamentals, yes. But ya got to let them have fun & stretch themselves occasionally. 

It's not just the grade of the kit ( Bandai's LM, LMHG, MG, PG ), it's what the builder does with it.  I'll try to avoid offending anyone at Kalmbach by mentioning other zines by name, but I've seen stuff from Japan that has mecha models done with as much technical skill as the historical subjects in any zine's gallery, including the show award winners.  In particular, I have a book that collects different modelers' works with Bandai's Evangelion series kits, most of them in the LMHG ("High Grade") series that are able to be done as snap kits, but are taken to surprising levels by creative modelers in dioramas and such.

I remember Bandai's TV ads for their Gundam kits, and keep in mind ads are targeted for certain buyers.  I laughed because each builder shown had an expression combining determination and a sense of accomplishment, but the time-to-finish stated for each one ranged from 30 minutes to under 10 hours.  What was the last kit anyone here built in under 10 hours?  I doubt anyone here fit the target market Bandai was aiming for.  Bandai was trying to cash in on what they expected to be a short-lived Gundam fad among a briefly wider audience here in the States.  They threw what they could quickly market and press in mass numbers to new fans ("new" since Gundam had been around for 20-some years under most people's radar ) who usually say they "lack the patience" to build models.  None of the kits in the ad or easily available in the marketing campaign were MG or other non-snap kits. 

Unfortunately, they were released in such numbers that they're all that many non-fans have seen, hence the assumptions.  The lack of familiarity with the subject just makes it worse. 

The main time you see snap kits of military subjects, they're for beginners and you can't do much to upgrade or superdetail them.  Bandai and many other Japanese kit companies make it more of a standard practice, again in the interest of marketing to a wider audience.  Yes, this makes it easy to get one of the kits to work on with your 6-year-old for a DIY toy.  It doesn't mean you can't have your own to practice techniques or break out the putty, scribing tools, airbrush, spare PE parts, etc and customize the ever-lovin out of it!

"Snap together" doesn't mean can't be impressive.  Anyone who says so should remember that a snap kit had a cover article in FSM ( the lit-up Defiant from Trek ).  If they scoff that because it's "not a reality-based subject" or whatever, then I'll just figure I'm more interested in the builder's accomplishment itself than the critic is and leave it at that.

OK...stepping down from .  Have fun building, guys and gals.

Gotta face it, the modeling community has more than it's share of Playa' Haters.

Y'all ever see that skit Dave Chappelle did on his show, about the Player Haters Ball? That's what the internet reminds me of sometimes.

Some Tank guys look down on Aircraft and Automotive guys, and vice versa. Scratchbuilders look down on aftermarket parts users. Resin vs. styrene. Figures vs. Vehicles. And don't get me started on sci-fi; Gundams vs. Ma.K.s vs. Trek vs. Star Wars, ad nauseum, ad infinitum...

I've seen guys insulted on boards for putting too much detail on a model, not enough detail, getting details wrong. Wrong Zimmerit pattern. Not enough rivets. Incorrect paint schemes. Not enough weathering. Too much weathering. Take Model Maniac's posts for example; every time that poor guy posts over in the armor forums, it's like throwing chum to the sharks.

I've seen guys that don't like each other for various irrational reasons, or how this one board is sooo much better than that other board. Some guys post here w/ the agenda of deliberately trying to divert traffic over there... and of course here at the FSM sci-fi forum, we get the KTM sockpuppets vs. the RI sockpuppets circus roll through town every few months.

I myself have been viciously slandered on another board that I don't even belong too, apparently for posting supportive comments in a thread in this forum.

Its all just part of the territory. You can't take it personally.

PatlaborUnit1 said it best: "Build to please yourself, and don't worry about what others think!"

Me? I build what moves me. I then share what I've done. Ma.K.s mostly, some Patlabor, some armor and figures. I've learned so much from watching others over the years that I hope to pass some of it on. If that helps some, way cool. If others don't like it, I shrug and move on.

It also helps if you just assume that every post you read has a smiley on the front and back end.