1/32 scale Mig 31 Firefox PP1

actually,

 I still haven't modified my wing tips like they should be yet.. I've been concentrating on getting the fuselage molded and cast for a hollow upper and lower half. I have a buddy that's a master mold maker assisting me on this. Hope to have mold boxes done Sunday evening so I can start precision claying of fuselage.

Best,

Will

  hi  forum:

that is an interesting precision of this detail, of the pirotechnical firefox, a downed, cornered, twisted, wingtip ..like a wing tip  skid?..no , is more an effort to diminish  the look of this chubby airfoil  in the tip , modificated later to the more sleek  version that all knows,for a final version like  wing.jpg, thats  clear Will ,thanks.

...... but, your firefox shows straight wing tips, nor rounded, not hero  like.???very  clear wing spoilers...

                                                      Miguel Angel

   ps . a curious detail , if you look the Badger explosion  frame by  frame  you may  discover an ............................another  firefox exploding!!!

howdy again,

 actually,

 the "Hero" had the rounded wing tips too! at certain angles they would appear sharp, but this was due to the upward angle built into the tips, they were all rounded however for the final stage version.

Best,

Will

here ya go

Greetings to the members of the forum, hello Mr. Babington

... and there this  is the small difference of interpretation. I believe that the design approved by Mr Gant... Eastwood was denominated  the"stage model", this same design of the model , the 1/1 and a 1/12 of that one ,makes mold from which they obtain "stage models". this design is modified of the original one in order to make them flyables, with which some movie shots were made. but the original design  in 1/12 and 1/1 is referring the main one and is the one that side mainly throughout the film. I think that, when  they finish the project pretending  obtain flyable firefoxes and to take advantage of them in the shots "wire rig only " these were given back to their original condition, changing the modified wings previously.

 certain detail was ignored to me that I must review with but well-taken care of. I talk about your "voskov´s wing tip " , this piece shows a rounded wing tip, like a effort to increase its aerodinamic performance, different from 1/1 and 1/12 of "wing tip" straight.

 something more, in" american cinematographer " they write ,several times,that the Artic scenes were filmed in Greenland, those of model 1/1. the peculiar thing of the subject is the photo of the firefox back,which they publish of that same scene, where write that it was taken in location  in IDAHO...? IDAHO-GREENLAND? hmmm......

   wings and good wind.

 ps. actually the 2 last pics in thinkinrussian gallery (model ice and  inthe ice .jpg),may  be  the modified versions with enlarged nose landing gear looking for to  increase the angle  of attack  in a take off never made. 

 landing skids,may be..detachable landing skids....hmm too late.hmmm ,stealth landing skids is better idea. ja.

I am loving it more and more the more you progress.. Even to the point I will be making a special trip to the DVD store this weekend to get it to watch once again..

Chris 

Small update!

Finally, the big bucket RTV arrived at the shop,and sheetwax as well. I ordered a 4/8 sheet of Whiteboard for the mold boxes which will be started in next couple days. I also purchased 50lbs of clean clay and a kit of urethane  Reoflex 30rtv for something to do with  the mold I can't discuss. should have some pretty wild pics soon, if all goes according to plan.

Will

Ps. FOXBATLIMA...I re-read all the articles from the American Cinematographer(1982), Cinefex #10, and Airprogress 1982, while there were some descrepencies on the acticles one thing holds true. When the Douglass Trumbell FX model team disbanded,trhis included Greg Jien, they'd decided on final design of the Firefox. This was when  the four foot Study model was made and given to Mr Eastwood. Then Apogee took over and  was given a casting to use to make the changes you mentioned. These included the lengthening of the wing surface and cord, as well as the widening(enlarged) intakes. I think a tad of refinement to the nose was added as well. It is now my understanding that the R/C Firefoxes flew pretty well actually,e xcluding the two that crashed during triming and adjustments, but the fixed landing gear and takeoffs were physically impossble on the ice and snow in Greenland, too wriggly on the gear, so the R/C Firefox idea was scrapped and the planes were rigged for motion control and wires....fun stuff!

Again my replica is for the 63" miniature, and this is what it looks like, based on my photos. She will have lots of scribed panel lines too...gonna be some major work there :)

....some commentaries with respect to the last  photos of the original model.

 the detail of the inclination of the nose is unquestionably true, this detail becomes evident in the sudden change of the reflection of the landing lights in the under fuselage when the firefox begins to  run in  the hangar.

the reflections say much to us, like in where we see reflected the nacelle of the motor in the wing undersurface, a reflection that does not change the size of the object, like the reflection of a flat mirror.

these pics show with singular clarity the central ventral air intake  to us the boundary layer bleeders , so subtle in dvd,only slightly visible when voskov shoots gant the cannons.

unfortunately i can't provide an upper  plan view shot of the original, she was some 20 ft off the ground as it was, there was no way there was going to be a top down shot though I wish there could have been. blow is another photo. This is the closest top down shot i have.  As for the canards, yes you are correct, mine is not based on the 1:1 scale mockup except in the cockpit area . This area again based off the 63"  "Hero" filming miniature.

The 1/36 scale version is what I refer to as a stunt nose (short, not as sleek in shape). Yes the Black one you see on my page was the all original one. the orange fiberglass mold(now broken) was made after the nose was changed going for longer version as well. I did keep the old nose though to put her back after the mold is finished eventually. But I wished to have a bigger one so this why this new replica is being built. On the full scale mockup, it is my understanding that it was a chain driven VW engine capable of taxing the full scale Firefox to 35 mph. Cinefex # 10 goes into detail on this.

Will

 Hi Mr Prime Secretary

Thaks for this new pic,the bottom view is not the same  but  is better  in show the general aspect .

i found a difference in the canard position between the  flyng scenes and full scale model  with  the firefox who  landing  in the floe,some advanced  in position ,almost a canard chord lenght forward,  i presume  thats another variation of the  rc.

  lenghtned version,hmm very  interesting.

that was the reason you modified the model in 1/36 you have owned?changing  for a cockpit hollow section?whats the original in 1/36 ,the black  model  or the orange silicone mold?is  a complete mold?

   there is something intrigues to me of the full scale firefox, how are the transmission between the   vw engine and the wheels? I do not see as it is possible .not obvious like in teh flyng wing  of  "raiders" or the f.16 like plane in "jewel of nile"

thaks form the pics .I am sure that in the end you obtained a irreprochable model, a real food of nostalgia. i will be very gratefull if you  published a photo of this model similar to Prmr12.jpg but with a more angle of view . an upper view of the original model.

you are correct, the motion control Foxes were actually the Radio controlled ones, or the other way round :). These were also the ones used primarly in the film ie..Seen the most. The model miniature I'm basing my replica off of is the rare long nose version, much sleeker, the Hero. This is the version I have the most reference on. Now there's going to be discrepencies here and there, I'm sure , without taking molds and castings off the original, there's no way around it. But rest assured, it will be the most accurate one out there. yes on the wing thickness but this is based off the flying model and taken into account as this will be scanned at a later point for a large 1/8th scale R/C Flying version. Once I have my two halves in hollow resin castings I may do some final refining , but this is essentially what I wanted to end up with on overall shapes and contours. is this the pic you are wondering about??? one of my favs actually.....

Hi Mr Babington

Ok, in the origin of that discussion about the genealogy of firefox is your asset :...." but the motion control model miniatures were originally intended to fly radio control, therefore having the air foil a little thicker than normal for rigidity." as an explanation to the apparent thickness of the wings of your model . 

 My point is that although they have been intended to be modified for rc the original models of control motion, these have a wing of thin profile but, so and as we see in the photos and film it as well as in the model of complete size. and then of these original ones, the modified versions made, perhaps with wings but heavy to make it flyables, it is logical, but it is not this modification the one that mainly is seen in the movie.

the original plane that shows to us is most interesting in spite of not being the definitive one. but the clarity jewel to which I talk about is to airbrakes.jpg the one that there is to put next to Prmr15.jpg to notice the differences.

or  compare primer9.jpg  with that first image of the original model that I publish, that of the belly of firefox. inferior jet intakes, compare the way in which it is with the side of the engine nacelle  post-776-1114488342.jpg, where are this pic?if  your calculations and measurements were correct, is incomprehensible that not looks equal .

good bye,until next post, Mr. first secretary ,both we tried to obtain he same objective: to catch to firefox!!...in an accurate scale model.

ps.its disturbing to me so that they did not give credit him greg jien by its creation in that I articule  of  american cinematographer.

Ok this is getting fun , glad you got to see this model in progress...I also have updated photos to show now as well. I guess I better refer back to the Apogee drawings for answering your questions. To be honest, I would say that the 5 view drawings were about three generations before the final version, however, they do call out and show close ups of details, side elevation and top elevation specifically which became present in the final production version. it was from these partial drawings, I found that I actually had the entire definitive shape and contours for the Firefox as we fans remember it. just had to take the plans down to my local Kinkos and use the blueprint machine to scale up or down and cut and paste. The final result was an exacting contour and shape for the 63" final film version. including the slight downward angle to the nose area. This drawing is not shown, but I will share  a bit of the nose to give you an idea. I also extrapolated the information for the vertical stabilizers based on the info and photos I have. You are totally right in that the drawing photo I showed had discrepancies, but these have all been accounted for in this replica. In my experience, I never yet been able to build a replica prop or otherwise using only provided planes. they are at best a documentation or guideline, nothing more. I was quite happily surprised after doing the cut and paste at the final drawings of the main features I required to make this plane "right" or as best that I  can without taking a mold off the original...I don't see this happening in the forgeable future, though I would jump if the chance arose, based on whatever the owner, if any felt was fair . Anyway...back to the discussion here.  To your statement about Dykstra and McCune. Not saying they are liars, nor would I ever. I totally respect and admire their work, a fan of Grant actually! I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I'll try to clarify. The study model was just that, a study model or prototype, this is the one the Greg Jien designed. This is the one that basically nailed down the basic shape and lines of the plane(before refinements were made). When Grant and the model guys including Sheppard(R/C guy) got the design they made these changes for it to be airworthy..errr   sort of lol... It was this final master pattern that was molded and cast to produce the R/C planes mentioned.  here's where the confusion is I think. All I was trying to say is that since these R/C planes met certain fates(crashes), they converted the remaining R/C model miniatures for motion control rigs, to be flown by wire. Since these miniatures were the final design, there was no additional model made for this scale. I hope this clarifies what I meant to say. Again most of the photos you mention I provided to that web page, I have lots as I've been studying this plane for many, many years, and starting in 2000, the actual Hero miniature.

Will

  In  first place  thank you very much for so good and unpublished images, never before seen so clearly. but  is inevitable to notice that drawings are not the definitive firefox, is very similar to the Baranovich plans although with some differences. pods of motor protuberantes towards the sides and something backwards. no pods  in trailing edge, the trailing edge is like in the Baranovich plane. air brakes On advanced position, near to  the leading edge, thats sees clearly in the lateral View. it appears an area shaded in the base of the fin, is perhaps the outline of a modification? all this makes think me that it is a not yet definitive plane, very near, if, but even with differences. it is evident that the carved wood model that shown us is based on this plans, this note how the fuselage diminishes its wide one until being with the motors, this is another point in which difference of firefox definitive. the photography of firefox is a jewel and shows the zone in which this the discrepancy of the brakes.thats dark panel shows with clarity two sections to the fuselage  in this area .may  i   ask to him as the brakes of their model would be look when they are unfolded? and the answer is: very close  .they are located in a section of little curvature .this photo has made it evident. i read your explanation that contradicts much in the writing in the publication that before mention(american cinematografer) and  I have left to ask to me :the versions of apogee were changed?  Grant McCune  lies?  Dykstra  lies? what they say there is that one you see had the models of movement control adapted the existing molds to produce rc models, and at the moment at which already they are had molds are so that there is something definitive that to produce, what  is not the case of a prototype, that there were many, is an image in black and white which it shows them in a Japanese page. but this does not matter in the end, only matters that so similar to the model seen in the film , the model can to be. this plans seems to correspond with seen frontal and back views in  the trailer of the film. the image that shows to us of the model is a jewel in clarity, thanks for this. and it is here where the different proportion between the wide total of the motors in the upper view against the wide one of the intermediate section of the motors is seen, that is to say, wide that have the fuselage when it is with the motors, in the plane and its model seems to be a proportion near 1/6 and photos known firefox show a proportion near 1/5. something but wide, this can be appreciated in thinkinrussian/gallery (SFXshot_01.jpg) one you see but thanks for the photography, the one that allows us to compare it with the many photos that of that section to shown to us.

thanks for your attention and thats unavaluable images Mr Babington.and I hope that my poor use of the English has been comprehensible .

cool! I provided most of those pics to thinkinrussian.org actually. I got em from a variety of sources including the Cinematographer, Cenifex, AirProgress, the Program book, and a rare hard back book on Special Effects( pic of shirtless guy(dykstra?) checking the miniature). I also have 9 Apogee technical drawings and used these, as well as my personal photos of the plane to make the masters.

Now about the modifications you discuss....checking reference, that article refers to the modification for the study model first made. I have some photos of this model, it's about 4 to 5 ft long, but I'm not sure about sharing the photos, would have to ask permission first. You can see one photo of it in Cenifex. The final filming model was modified from this Greg Jien design. I talked to Greg personally on this and he said he was involved in the early stages of this design prototyping, but that Mr Eastwood liked the plane so much, he wouldnt let Apogee change much when modifying it for the flying model. the model described in the 1982 Cenimatagrapher is discussing these changes from this prototype.. lol :)does my ramble make any sense at all????.

You are correct that the wing tip I have is from the Voskov plane(Pyrotechnic miniature), but all planes at the point of production came from the same molds, and were laid up the same way with the carbon fibre and inner foam core construction to the best of my knowledge. in fact all the planes were designed to fly but because of weather conditions and flight characteristics of the design, all thoughts( plus the crashes) caused them to change their minds and use the motion control rigs instead.. so in essence, no "other" 63" planes were made for this, they just rigged up the r/c foxes. Ok, in answer to your studio wing thickness concern, the studio 63" miniatures' widest cross-section on the airfoil  is 1.410"  where it meets the intake, making it .529" on a 1/32 scale model...also finishing up on the wing tip measurements are as follows:.932 on the wing tip making it .350 for a 1/32 scale conversion, my main wing is .462", ,a difference of .061" too thin actually, but if necessary, I will remedy this.

also my drawings include the following:

1. All views of the Firefox

2. nozzels and turkey feather patterns

3. placement of ducted fan, and application

4. McDonell Douglas Landging gear, nose gear and main

5.instruments for cockpit( this drawing sint what they ended up using. Bendix did the mockup

6 main wing cross sections and profiles

7. cockpit and nose area, showing canards and how they function, also includes a close up of the nose discussing and giving vital information about angles used to form it.

8.wing tip cross-sections and profiles, angle to main wing included

9. Vertical stabilizers cross sections profiles and bonus of assembly drawings for landing gear doors.

hope this helps a bit...

Sincerely,

Will 

 and as per you asking here's a pic of the intake airbrake area of the filming miniature

    Ps.  looking  in thinkinrussian.org/gallery , i found  the pic   CLINT31C   this shows a model landed in an artic environment with  a rare lenghtened nose landing gear, may be this was the rc modificated model.

  Hi Will,hi  to  the other forum members ,firefox fans ,aviation modelers.gretings from  Lima Peru.

Well, Apogee make the full scale and the miniatures 1/12 , 1/36  and 1/96 first, the rc models was modifications of the 1/12 models made by Jay Replogle and Larry  Wolf for make a flyable model  able to  take off ,as in the movie appears,except  in the ice floe...." area and cord of the wings were increased the position and size of the air intakes, the placement of the landing gear,etc."......The final "coup the grace" for this miniatures was to slide down  a wire filled with explosives to  satisfy  the final destruction of Voskovs plane......(american cinematographer  september 1982 page  924     "Models for firefox"  by  Grant Mc Cune).

  The wingtip rest you have own must be part of this exploding model , the modificated model.

i dont see that studio drawings or in what development stadium are this , may be this drawings have been the drawings appear in the movie trailer?front and back  view?and , may be , the  Baranovich plan  show Gant  in her dacha?if this the case that plans shows differences with the final firefox ,per example.,wing trailing edge between the defense pod  and engine nacelle. i dont know , i didnt see your plans.

  i dont compare  your airfoil with real airplane airfoils ,  i compare with the firefox model pics , the thinkinrussian  pics, and the movie itself.dvd captures, and its like me too thick.

im waiting for your answer for the question of the fuselage former at the airbrake roots, they must  be slightly more curved in a near 90 degrees arc.i  understand the  implications of that change its not a local  modification the efect of that modification extend across the fuselage .

  i dont see ,except one, your exclusive pics that you claim, i dont question your sources, only i note those differences between your model and the firefox ever see and ever know.

  thanks for your attention,im very glad for comunicate with a very talented modeler, a probed firefox fan ,like me.

  ps.may i post pics to the forum?

Hi there, nice observation, Though everything I'm doing here is based on three things. the film the studio drawings, and my photos of the actual filming miniature, so it's as per this, yes it is a tad thick to conventional aircraft airfoils, but the motion control model miniatures were originally intended to fly radio control, therefore having the air foil a little thicker than normal for rigidity. Ohh!,

make that four things!....I have a wing tip from one of the actual miniatures as well, also showing this slightly thicker cross section on the airfoil.

Hope this helps,

Will

Ps. were'd ya get these pics of the 63" motion control model, you've seen???

Prety job , mr babington, the best firefox at today,you have made pretty look details  in cabin surface an jet nozzels, but i have noted same diferences with the movie 1/12  model.excuse me for say you and excuse  my poor english but  i  beleive you  understand me.

  the most notorius is the airfoil thickness,thats mean a more thick wing, that is clear in the fuselage/wing intercection, the little deep  of the fuselage  in the aibrake section.the airfoil of the apogge model is more like a flat-convex airfoil, you have made a biconvex airfoil.

im not sure  but  i think the ventral cental intake must  be less deep.

 the air intakes looks enhanced o augmented.

i think  this variations ,the wing thickness , the air intakes,points to  make a flyable  rc model, thas true? thanks.

Hi gang...I've not forgotten this project. Just had a major event in my life. My father passed away from a heart attack on the 2nd. I've been pretty depressed about it and it has taken a bit of a toll on my projects. I am however getting back into building as my dad always loved to see my latest creation. Hope to show many updates soon.
Sincerely,
Will
Ps actually I do have a few pics I can show.Mind the pics of me holding the master...to look this good after working at the shop for 36 hours straight lol............ Ordering RTV for initial mold Monday

Howdy gang,
I got some more done. I found that for some reason my masks for all the recesses were too small, so I redid them. I also completed the bottom area as well..she's ready for first mold now!
Best,
Will

[img]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s208/Wbnemo1/primer6.jpg[/img

man will she's looking beautiful, amazing progress so far, cant wait to see her fully built.

Here's all the parts so far for the masters, saving for RTV now.Enjoy da pics!
Best,
Will

Update!
masks are removed for the canopy, air brakes, and leading edges.. she's ready for first molds...ohh boy!
Best,
Will

Howdy,
I was at the shop working on a couple projects and had brought the Firefox with me as well. I got quite a bit done on it waiting on the laser cutter files to run. I finalized everything on the nose, smoothed up the fuselage, and got the aviation hump behind the canopy all finalized. It's a match to the filming mini now. It was a slow process but worked out well in the end. Now she's all primered, ready to mold minus a little area in the rear where I need to fix a broken splitter on the inside of the engine shroud. Anyway, here a few pics of progress.
Will