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Columbus' Sailing Vessels

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  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:29 AM
 jtilley wrote:

Anyway - I firmly believe that reconstructing important old ships, including those for which the available evidence is scarce, is a worthwhile activity.  But I also think it's imperative that everybody concerned understand that such reconstructions are just that:  reconstructions.  I really like the idea of an exhibit tracing how interpretations of such vessels as Columbus's ships have changed over the years.  May they continue to do so.

Thank you for the comment.

Chappelle's approach to vessels for which no plans existed was very straightfoward in a sense. He urged model builders to stay away from models for which there was scant evidence; I believe that Dana Wegner at the Nautical Research Guild has the same feelings (as well as advising modellers to stay away from plastics).

But you leave those gaps. Interpretations that are based upon the best evidence on hand are certainly better than nothing, even if the model has to be labelled "15th Century Spanish Nao similar to the Santa Maria" Certainly better than nothing, as long as it is made clear that this is an approximation, nothing more.

Unless you're building models of replica's, which is what I did, and I made sure that it was labelled as such. 

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, July 17, 2009 11:12 AM

Vagabond_Astronomer,

I have all three kits of the Revell ships of Columbus unbuilt and unstarted.  I am not sure what you are interested in, but if you were to contact me, I will get you what you need.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 17, 2009 10:53 AM

 Vagabond_Astronomer wrote:

There are no drawings of ships from that period. There are some paintings, a number of sketches and small iconographic evidence on maps. There exists one model contemporary with Columbus, the Mataro votive model, and aside from ships that probably evolved similarly to caravels, the evidence is scant. Even the best replica is still, at best, an educated guess (though I really hate that term) based upon the available remaining evidence. Some are obviously better than others, and we seem to be heading in that direction.
Still, we simply do not know with 100% accuracy.

Well put.

Personally, I think such reconstructions - whether in the form of full-size replicas, models, or drawings - are extremely worthwhile projects.  And I share the hope that, as each generation reconsiders the evidence, it gets a little closer to reality.  But unless and until the remains of an actual ship from the period (or a detailed contemporary drawing, or whatever) is discovered, we just won't know.

One thing that does trouble me in this area is the tendency of people to take such reconstructions too seriously - to the point where a reconstruction gets regarded as "official."  Example:  back in the 1940s (I think) an artist named Griffin Baily Coale was commissioned to paint a mural depicting the three "Jamestown ships," the Susan Constant, Godspeed, and Discovery, for the Virginia Statehouse in Richmond.  A few years later, in conjunction with the 350th anniversary of the Jamestown settlement, the state decided to build full-size replicas of the ships.  The (alleged) naval architect in charge of that project was instructed to make his ships look exactly like those in the mural.  (The mural wasn't bad, but....)  Fortunately, when the 1950s replicas rotted to pieces thirty years later the state hired a new designer to draw the plans for their replacements - and imposed no such restrictions on him.  The "new Jamestown ships" do make some decidedly non-historical concessions to practicality (e.g., the Susan Constant's diesel engine), but they're certainly eminently respectable interpretations of what the real, 1607 ships looked like - by the standards of this generation of scholars.

When I was working at the Mariners' Museum (Newport News, Virginia), I stumbled on some interesting correspondence about the Confederate raider Alabama.  The letters dated from (I think; beware my senile memory) the early 1960s, and concerned a model the museum had just commissioned.  Howard I. Chapelle, at that time the curator of transportation at the Smithsonian, found out about the project.  It so happened that the Smithsonian had also commissioned a model of the Alabama, based on a different set of reconstructed drawings.  Chapelle was angry about that; he claimed that models of such a famous ship in two major museums ought to "agree," and tried (unsuccessfully) to talk the MM into modifying its Alabama to match the one in the Smithsonian.

I'm a huge admirer of Chapelle, but in this particular instance I think he was wrong.  It seems to me that the more consistency there is in such speculative replicas, the greater the danger that the public will think they're more "definitive" than they actually are.  In this particular case, a good bit of additional evidence about the Alabama turned up in later decades, and established that both the MM and Smithsonian models are (a) not bad by any means, but (b) incorrect in quite a few details.

Among my most frustrating responsibilities at the MM was the care of the famous/notorious Crabtree collection.  It includes models of the Santa Maria and Pinta.  (The great man never got around to the Nina.)  Those models are pretty consistent with the various reconstructions and drawings that had been published when Crabtree built them - i.e., in the 1930s.  They most definitely did not represent current scholarly thinking in the time I was working there (1980-1983).  But woe betide the curator or docent who offhandedly mentioned that fact in public (especially in the presence of Mrs. Crabtree).  Until I went to work at that place it hadn't occurred to me that it was possible for a ship modeler to have groupies.  The Crabtree Groupies numbered in the dozens, and tended to be both vocal and well-heeled. 

Another model in the Crabtree Gallery supposedly represented the Revolutionary War brig Lexington.  It was based on a set of plans published in Mechanix Illustrated magazine in the 1920s, and later (unfortunately) immortalized by Charles Davis in his book, The Built-Up Ship Model.  (I have a great deal of respect for Davis, but in dealing with the American Revolution he was out of his depth.)  The plans were full of anachronisms, and in later years a couple of contemporary pictures of the Lexington surfaced - and established that she looked nothing like the model.  When I launched a campaign to change the label and call Crabtree's creation a model of an "Armed Brig, Circa 1810," I was almost accused of heresy.  (I eventually won that one, but not without some pretty spectacular fireworks.)

On the other hand, close by the Crabtree Gallery stood a permanent exhibition of figureheads.  One of the nicest was from a late-nineteenth-century yacht called the Mayflower.  Next to the figurehead was displayed a photograph of the actual ship - complete with a big cloud of black smoke billowing out of the funnel.  With my own ears I heard a visitor tell one of her kids, "Look, Jimmy!  That's from the Pilgrims' ship!" 

At such moments one finds onesself thinking the ominous words, "why do we bother?"

Anyway - I firmly believe that reconstructing important old ships, including those for which the available evidence is scarce, is a worthwhile activity.  But I also think it's imperative that everybody concerned understand that such reconstructions are just that:  reconstructions.  I really like the idea of an exhibit tracing how interpretations of such vessels as Columbus's ships have changed over the years.  May they continue to do so.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:01 PM
When I was building my Santa Maria display for the Jacksonville Maritime Museum back in 1993, I set out to build models of replicas, not other untried interpretations (both  of the Landstrom versions and the R.C. Anderson interpretation come to mind).  When building these replicas, I chose to not correct any of their inaccuracies or anachronisms; I built them lumps and all.
A total of four Santa Marias were built in 1/144 scale -
The 1892 Duro version (scratchbuilt)
The Guillen version (as the original replica, 1929 - 1945; Lindberg kit)
The Young America Showcase version (1976 - 1979; modified Pyro/Life-Like/Lindberg Duro kit)
The Martinez-Hidalgo rebuild of the 1951 Guillen replica (modified Lindberg kit)

It taught me an awful lot, make no mistake. But as an amateur maritime historian (as well as an artist), the urge to correct the problems was very strong. That, however, was not the purpose of the display; it was to show how our understanding of Columbus' ships has changed, and was supposed to lead to a fairly large Martinez-Hidalgo replica of the Santa Maria.
Alas, 'twas not to be.
Anyway, that's what we're doing whenever we build these kits; we are building someone else's interpretations, and therein lies the conundrum, at least for me.
There are no drawings of ships from that period. There are some paintings, a number of sketches and small iconographic evidence on maps. There exists one model contemporary with Columbus, the Mataro votive model, and aside from ships that probably evolved similarly to caravels, the evidence is scant. Even the best replica is still, at best, an educated guess (though I really hate that term) based upon the available remaining evidence. Some are obviously better than others, and we seem to be heading in that direction.
Still, we simply do not know with 100% accuracy.
"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Thursday, July 16, 2009 4:25 PM

Well, shucks...

My old Pinta has apparently been sold (though, according to my friend Doug it was one from his collection, and probably was). So, now looking for the Revell Nina, period. I figure that having three different "Ninas" (the Zvezda/Occidental, the Heller and the Revell) would make a little more sense; a tale of three Nina's, as it were.
Problem is, of course, the kit is out of production. Perhaps someone out there has an unstarted kit and would be kind enough to photograph the sprue.
Well, at least I can suggest it! 

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Thursday, July 16, 2009 12:18 AM
 Vagabond_Astronomer wrote:

I notice that in another forum a few months back you were looking for the instructions to the Revell kits; a few months back, I could have helped you.

At any rate, I have the Heller Nina in route and am picking up one of my old opened Revell Pinta's tomorrow. Could you do this, though? Place the ships side by side and get some shots.

Yes, i was looking for the instructions to the Revell kits (or strictly speaking for Nina), because in the 500'th aniversary kit i bought in e'bay (all three ships) was all instructions missing. Because i have "separate" other kits - Santa Maria and Pinta with instructions, i was needing only instructions for Nina.

I got Nina instructions from Revell Germany by post and these instructions are almost the same as Heller instuctions, only few differences: other painting schema and Revell's Nina is three masted... All other parts the same.

OK, i will post photos of both Pinta's (Revell's and Heller's) tomorrow.

  • Member since
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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:49 PM

I wonder if the later Revell Germany kits were repackaged Heller kits? I notice that in another forum a few months back you were looking for the instructions to the Revell kits; a few months back, I could have helped you.

At any rate, I have the Heller Nina in route and am picking up one of my old opened Revell Pinta's tomorrow. Could you do this, though? Place the ships side by side and get some shots. That is basically what I'm going to be doing with the unbuilt models once the Heller Nina and Zvezda (ex Occidental) Nina arrive.  Like to see how they square up.

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:29 PM

I have both of Pinta made by Revell and Heller, and i have both Nina made by Revell and Heller - the same parts, the same stirene, the same plastic sails and the same rigging thread (not the same, as use Revell in their original kits) and almost the same instructions of assembly. Shall i post pictures?

By the way, for "Revell's" Pinta and Nina stirene is dark brown - as Heller use; for Santa Maria - light brown, as Revell use.

I have the 500'th aniversary kit from Revell (all three ships) - stirene diferrs for Santa Maria and for Pinta and Nina.

P.S. I have kits made by Revell Germany.

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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:04 AM
One point I was trying to make (and failed to in my rambling!) is that Revell's caravels were apparently new tooling for the 500th anniversary.
Need to lay off the coffee...
"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:00 AM
Yes, the Heller and Revell caravels are definitely different ships; in the early 1990's I was seriously involved in research into Columbus and his vessels (this at a time when Columbus had ceased to be a heroic figure and had become a villain of sorts in the eyes of many). I was doing a number of models for the local maritime museum. At that time, my specialty was 1/384 miniatures, not plastics. But the sudden surge in Columbus plastic models got my attention, so, all in the name of checking them out, I purchased them all. Interestingly enough, in my critical eyes, not one of the wooden kits were worth their price; they had numerous details just dead wrong. Pretty to look at, wrong in appearance.
Anyway, there were a number of smaller publications out there at the time that were comparing model aircraft by literally doing side by side comparisons of the components, I set out to do the same, though sadly I took no photos. I got the Revell kits for a song from the local Michael's Arts & Crafts (like $1.99 each). My local hobby shop ordered the Heller kits at considerably greater costs, of course. Years before, I had built the Heller Nina, and knew that the scale label of 1/75 was simply dead wrong, that it was more like 1/96.
When the models were finally all gathered up, the most obvious problem was the fact that the Heller Santa Maria was perhaps actually 1/75, and completely dwarfed the caravels, as well as being based on the Guillen version of the 1920's. The Revell Santa Maria, also the Guillen version, was closer to 1/96 if I recall(my old maritime research journal was lost 10 years ago; dear God how I wish I still had access to all that hard work).
The Revell and Heller caravels were very similar to one another, with the Heller kits slightly smaller and finer in line. The Revell caravels had a couple of features that I simply did not like, such as rope coils molded to the decks. Their Nina carried three lateen rigged masts, but had the mizzen and bonaventure stepped directly to the quarterdeck, and not going through (one stiff wind, and CRRRRRRAAAAACCCKKK...). The Heller Nina carries two masts only.
Both the Revell and Heller Pinta carry identical rigs, however, and like their respective Ninas use common parts, namely the hulls.
Then there is the Zvezda (nee Occidental) Nina. Beautiful model, apparently based on the Boa Esperanca replica (though, again, not certain).
As for the real Santa Maria; after being wrecked on Christmas, 1492, it was stripped down and somewhat gutted to build the fort at La Navidad (the mast was cut away first to lighten the nao, but to no avail). My guess is that the remains of the ship, now significantly lightened, probably slipped further offshore and away from the reef, and in all likelyhood never completely settled and allowed to be buried as most wrecks. The remaining exposed wood, left to open ocean, would have decayed to nothing, leaving no trace of the much vaunted Santa Maria. They may find scattered ballast, but little else.
Of course, I want very badly for this ship to be found and me proven wrong!
"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:25 AM

The story of the Heller and Revell "Columbus ships" is complicated, and I don't claim to understand it completely. 

According to Dr. Graham's book on the history of Revell (Remembering Revell Model Kits, revised second edition, 2004), the Revell Santa Maria was originally released in 1957.  He gives its scale as 1/90.  It's been reissued many times; Dr. Graham lists two such re-releases, in 1958 and 1972, but his coverage stops in 1979.

Heller issued its first Santa Maria some years later - I think in the mid- to late 1960s (but I'm not sure).  As noted earlier in this thread, it seems to have been based on the same research project, but was an entirely different kit.  At that time Revell and Heller were entirely separate companies - one American, one French.  (In its early years Heller "borrowed" several American sailing ship kits and issued them with spurious, Francophized names, but the Santa Maria wasn't one of those.) 

Heller issued a Nina and a Pinta either at the same time as the Santa Maria or a few years later.  My first recollection of them is when they appeared in American boxes under the Minicraft label, in the very late sixties or the very early seventies.  The two kits were based on the same hull, with alternative parts that made them look quite a bit different from a distance.  Catalog listings show the Pinta as being longer than the Nina; that's because the Pinta kit had a bowsprit.  (The Nina was represented in her original, "caravela lateena" rig, with no square sails and no bowsprit.)

Dr. Graham's book on Revell (which I regard as quite reliable regarding such things) doesn't mention a Revell Nina or Pinta.  (His book, remember, only covers releases up through 1979 - and doesn't list ship kits that originated with Revell Germany or Revell Great Britain.)  I think they first appeared in 1991 or 1992, in conjunction with the 500th anniversary observances.  By this time Heller was selling a number of ex-Revell kits in Heller boxes - and a few ex-Heller kits were turning up in Revell Germany boxes.  Both Revell and Heller issued several kits and "gift sets" commemorating Columbus in 1991 and/or 1992.  I didn't buy any of them, so any comments I make about them are based on what I remember (which isn't much) from looking at the ads and the boxes.  My impression was that Revell was reissuing its old Santa Maria, and that its Nina and Pinta were reboxings of the old Heller kits.  But I could well be mistaken.  I gather Vagabond Astronomer has actually compared the Revell and Heller Ninas and Pintas side-by-side and concluded that they're different kits.  That's news to me, but I have no grounds for disagreeing.

Regarding scales - the scales those companies have listed on the boxes and instruction sheets seem to have little relation to reality.  (If the Revell kit was intended to be on 1/90 scale, the beautifully-sculpted crew figures in it must represent midgets.  Two of them in fact did double duty as members of the crew of H.M.S. Bounty, Revell's representation of which is - really - on 1/110 scale.)  If I'm not mistaken, the two companies have been inconsistent in the scales they've listed for the kits over the years.  The truth of the matter is that, since nobody knows the dimensions of the real ships, it's not possible to determine the scales of the models accurately.  Any set of dimensions for any of the three represents guesswork by some historian or ship modeler.  We just don't know how big those ships were; in fact we know almost nothing about them for certain.  I wouldn't be willing to assert that any of the kits we've been discussing here "is" on a particular scale.

My posts in this Forum over the last few years demonstrate, I think, that I don't often defend plastic kit manufacturers.  (Forum members are, I'm suspect, thoroughly sick by now of hearing what I think about the Heller Soleil Royal and the Revell "Beagle.")  In cases like this, however, I think it's appropriate to cut the manufacturers a good deal of slack.  Despite the enormous amount of skilled, meticulous research that's been done over the past century or so, we just don't know what Columbus's ships looked like.  (I confess that, until I read this thread, I'd never heard of a serious assertion that Columbus himself wasn't a real person; that's a new one to me, and I find the notion untenable.  But it demonstrates just how meager the hard information about this period in maritime history is.)  It's certainly true that a modern expert's reconstruction of any of the three ships would be substantially different than the Heller and Revell kits.  But there's a big leap between that fact and the assertion that any of the earlier reconstructions is "wrong" - or,for that matter, that the more recent ones are "right." 

At various times in the past several decades archaeological expeditions have gone looking for the remains of the Santa Maria.  (If the journal of Columbus is to be believed, her remains, in some form or other, ought to be on the bottom of the Caribbean, somewhere near Haiti.)  So far nobody's had any luck whatever.  If the wreck (or any fragment of it) ever does get recovered - or, for that matter, if any other late-fifteenth-century southern European shipwreck ever turns up - I'm virtually certain of only one thing:  it will contain lots of features that the researchers didn't expect.    

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:09 AM

Heller's Santa Maria is the same thing as Revell's Santa Maria (simply reboxed). Scale of "both" - 1:90 and not 1:75 as Heller state for "his" Santa Maria.

Revell's Pinta is the same thing as Heller's Pinta (simply reboxed). Scale of "both" - 1:90 not 1:75 as Heller state for his Pinta.

Revell's Nina is slightly modified Heller's Nina - Heller's Nina is two masted, Revell's - three masted. All other parts Revell leave with no change of Heller's one. Scale of "both" - 1:90 not 1:75 as Heller state for his Pinta.

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Posted by vonBerlichingen on Friday, July 10, 2009 9:34 PM

 Vagabond_Astronomer wrote:
When Dr. Roger Smith and his team led a team to a couple of wrecks on the gulf coast of Florida (possibly the remnants of Tristan de Luna's expedition from the early 16th century), they discovered that the area below the waterline was sheathed in lead. I wonder when the practice began?

Apparently, the ancient Romans used lead sheathing, but I do not know whether the tradition was continuous until the 16th century or interrupted and rediscovered.

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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Friday, July 10, 2009 6:17 PM

Just going to keep this thread going...

In doing a little research, I discovered that the Zvezda 1/100 Nina is the old Occidental kit; found an image of the sprue online and it is a match, right down to the separate keel and lower deck pieces (http://www.zvezda.org.ru/images/sets/photoes/9005/1.gif). Sadly, the fabric sails are gone, though in 1/100 they were overdone. 

So, that means that in the 1/90 to 1/100 range there are really three choices for plastic caravels; Revell and Heller, which are pretty similar in appearance though the Heller model is finer in lines (remember that their Nina and Pinta have common hulls), and the Zvezda kit. 

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Friday, July 10, 2009 4:42 PM

Oh, yes, I do remember the little Airfix Santa Maria! That was actually the first one I built years ago, and I think you're right about the it being close to 1/350. It was also based on the oft copied Guillen version, though I seem to recall that the packaging showed it with a different bow (old Airfix Series 1/Historical Ship series; still have their Revenge).

I just pulled out my old copy of "The Ship" and plan on finishing up that old Imai kit. Interestingly, when Landstrom did his book "Columbus" a few years later, his Santa Maria changed, not only in shape but also in rig. The latter version had a more southern European style in rigging for the late 15th century; no ratlines, just shrouds. Because of where the Santa Maria originated, both styles of rigging are a possibility.

Just need to start on the model... I'm letting the pursuit of "perfect" be the enemy of "good"! 

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
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Posted by EPinniger on Friday, July 10, 2009 1:44 PM

The Revell Columbus ship set was definitely issued by Revell Germany in Europe - I've seen it for sale at model shows. I haven't seen inside the box so I've no idea of the origins of the kits; it would make sense to package the Revell Santa Maria with the Heller caravels, seeing as they're about the same size.
From what I've seen, it it looks like virtually every plastic and wood kit of Santa Maria is based, directly or indirectly, on the Julio Guillen reconstruction - including the larger, 1/60 scale, Imai kit (the difference between this and the small 1/250 kit is very obvious even from the small photo in their catalogue).

Regarding the Imai 1/250 Santa Maria, there actually is a caravel kit available in this scale, from the Portuguese manufacturer "Occidental". It closely resembles a scaled-down Heller Nina and is quite a nice kit considering its small size. I believe Occidental kits are still in production, but availability is sketchy even in Europe, let alone outside it!

BTW, [url=/forums/978509/ShowPost.aspx]here's[url] my build of the Heller Nina - I built this a few years ago, if I built it now I'd have put a bit more work into the rigging and deck fittings, but it's still a nice model.

Finally, Airfix also produced a small Santa Maria as part of their original "Historic Ships" series. This one actually does scale out at around 1/350 scale, if I remember correctly!

 (EDIT: fixed link to Heller Nina build thread)

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Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Friday, July 10, 2009 11:45 AM
When Dr. Roger Smith and his team led a team to a couple of wrecks on the gulf coast of Florida (possibly the remnants of Tristan de Luna's expedition from the early 16th century), they discovered that the area below the waterline was sheathed in lead. I wonder when the practice began?
"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
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Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Friday, July 10, 2009 11:36 AM

Bondo,

Good point. Revell (though I think Zvezda actually is producing the model) had tooled da Gama's ship San Gabriel, but in my opinion the design is dead wrong (like too many designs, based on either iconagraphic evidence from later periods or, in one person's words, tradition). Landstrom and Martinez-Hidalgo had great designs, based on ship paintings and other artwork from the period, yet the model companies chose to ignore them.

That's not to say there aren't great ships from the period of exploration out there. Occidental produced a Portuguese caravel in 1/100 that was simply gorgeous, and later reboxed it as the Nina. I think Zvezda may have obtained that tooling, though I can't be certain. The Heller Nina is not too bad, nor is the Revell Pinta (their Nina has the mizzen and bonavanture supported only by the deck, as opposed to running through and down; it also has common parts with the Pinta, a' la Heller). During Heller's prime, they tooled a number of fascinationg ships. One of them was a carrack that used their Santa Maria as a basis but went on to include a fo'cstle and other new parts (BTW, the main mast on their Santa Maria is horrible). They also made their own interpretation of the Mataro Nao, but used their tried and true "let's use the Nina/Pinta hull" method, which produced a ship that looked sort of period, but with a square stern where there should have been a round one. Heller also made a La Grande Hermine, but this has some features that are just odd, including the most out of proportion masts I have ever seen.

Since Airfix is doing a lot of retooling, perhaps they may surprise us yet. 

Then again, maybe not...

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
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Posted by vonBerlichingen on Friday, July 10, 2009 5:53 AM

Thanks for posting those links, Jim. On the French side, there is one article that mentions lead sheathing!

 

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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, July 10, 2009 1:08 AM

Landstrom is my guide on this subject, and Vagabond too. It's apocrapha at this point, but it's a good idea to see the little expedition as having at least one ship in Lateen, if only because if you look forward to the record and then backward to the imagination, the ships would not have been pristine caravelles, and rerigging was pretty common over a trip from Spain/Africa/ Azores/ Carribean.

There's a good body of literature about whether CC was an actual figure. I believe he was.

If you consider that Revell has a good medieval ship, and a great if top 3 Elizabethan ship, then why are the 1) Normans; and 2) voyages of discovery; not modeled?

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Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Thursday, July 9, 2009 7:40 PM
Thanks, happy to be aboard (built one or two sub models in my life, BTW... probably more... yeah, more...).
After writing earlier, went over to a certain online auction site to see what Columbus models they had available. Listings were dominated by Revell and Heller kits, with the newly released Aoshima 1/350 kit.
Yes, the new 1/350 Aoshima kit is the classic Imai 1/200 model, a few times what I paid for mine just a few years back. You'll also find a 1/350 Heller Santa Maria, which is neither new nor 1/350.
Sigh...
"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
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Posted by subfixer on Thursday, July 9, 2009 7:14 PM
Welcome to the forum, Vagabond.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Thursday, July 9, 2009 6:10 PM

Okay, coming in on this topic rather late, but I'm new here...

The Heller Santa Maria is more like !/70 - 1/75, while the two caravels (the Nina and Pinta) are more like 1/90 - 1/100. The Revell Santa Maria, on the other hand, is more like 1/90 - 1/100, and their caravels scale just fine, being very similar in size to the Heller kits though markedly different.

The Santa Maria of both companies is based on the Dr. Julio Guillen version built in 1927, as a caravel. This is the most copied version in plastic, both large and small. The problem is, most evidence points to the Santa Maria being a nao, a small carrack. In the 1950's, Juan Maria Martinez Hidalgo researched Columbus's ships (and published his findings in the 1960's in a book of the same name). Dr.  Guillen even agreed with his research, and the replica was modified based upon the research (though its length to beam ratio is still too large). It was Martinez-Hidalgo's research  that Xavier Pastor consulted when he executed his book.

So, if I were to tackle these ships today, I would use the following...

Revell Santa Maria, with new forecastle and head based upon the Martinez-Hidalgo data.

Revell Pinta

Heller Nina (slightly smaller than the Pinta)

There are still issues to be addressed, and it has been years since I touched any of those kits. But that's the path I'd recommend.

Incidentally, the only plastic kit that comes close to the Santa Maria's appearance is the little Imai 1/200 model, based upon Bjorn Landstrom's version in his masterpiece "The Ship".  Very simple little model, has plenty of room for detailing. Pity they don't make any caravel's in that scale (discounting the old Pyro/Life-Like/Lindberg kits).

 

Rob 

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 5:26 PM
Hi Rick,

Happy to help, I think you will have fun building them, and they will give a good start in building sailing ships of any type. The book I mentioned on Columbus's ships is the same as John Tilley mentions, and will give a very good read as you build. It might also show some details you could scratch build, if you're inclined.

This era of maritime history is geopolitally vital, and the ships are fascinating. Happily, despite gaps, scholarship continues and follows the same conservative and established principles as any other field of inquiry. Better still, the knowledge base is growing: an archival discovery has led to the possible presence of a fourth mast on the Nina in 1498, for example. This is discussed in Conway's History of the Ship series, Cogs, Caravels and Galleons, on pp. 96-97. A helpful introduction to the value and methods of iconographic interpretation can be found in the same book on pp. 169-174.

Perhaps the most vital new information is coming from maritime archeology. For example, excavations of a ship identified as Lomallina, a very large Genoese "nau" or "nave" that sank in late 1516 from a sudden storm while anchored in Villefranche Harbor, has revealed the form and lines of the hull, the construction of elements such as the capstan, jeer bitts, masting, rudder, artillery and notably, the presence of gun ports. Another wreck in the Baltic sea has been identified as a Polish-built "kravel" built in the 1510s, which has preserved intact the entire framing structure of the stern in addition to many other elements.

Here are some links to the two ships which might be of interest. Feel free to navaigate around the sites for more information:

http://www.archeonavale.org/lomellina/an/l_7a.html

http://www.archeonavale.org/lomellina/an/l_5a.html

Here is data on the gun ports and structural elements:

http://www.archeonavale.org/lomellina/an/l_101a.html

http://www.archeonavale.org/lomellina/an/l_102a.html

and here is the Polish vessel in the Baltic :

http://cma.soton.ac.uk/Research/Kravel/index.htm

Have fun building,

Jim
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 5:17 PM

True.  Come to think of it, I guess one could label a model of a small, three-masted "caravella redondo" (square-rigged caravel) either the Pinta or the Nina (post-re-rigging).  It's known that the Pinta was a little bigger than the Nina, but since we don't know exactly how big either of them was....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: San Francisco, CA
Posted by telsono on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 5:11 PM

Wasn't the sailing rig of the Pinta changed when Colombus reached the Canary Islands? I believe from reading articles that she was changed from a lateen rigged vessel over to the square rigger.

So it depends when you want to make your building refence, as when they left Spain or made landfall in the new World.

Mike T.

Beware the hobby that eats.  - Ben Franklin

Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. - Ben Franklin

The U.S. Constitution  doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Ben Franklin

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 11:47 PM

Unfortunately the answer seems to be:  well, sort of.

Revell released its Santa Maria in 1957.  So far as I know, that's the only kit representing any of Columbus's ships that actually originated with Revell.  It's been reissued many times - and is currently being sold by Revell Europe.

Heller initially released its Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria sometime in (I think) the mid- to late sixties.  The Heller Santa Maria was quite similar to the Revell version in size and overall shape, but was a different kit.  The other two used the same basic hull parts, but differed from each other otherwise.  The Nina, as I remember, was represented in her original form - i.e., as a lateen-rigged caravel with no square sails.  All three kits were reissued numerous times (and Heller recycled the hulls with other, fictitious names attached to them). 

Then things get complicated.  Revell and Heller had some sort of arrangement in (I think) the eighties and early nineties; a fair number of Revell kits turned up in Heller boxes here in the U.S., and some Heller kits got sold in Revell boxes by Revell Europe.  In 1992 there was quite a bit of public interest in the Columbus story, and lots of old kits got reissued in fancy, up-to-date boxes.  I don't remember all the kits that got that treatment, but I believe Heller offered a big box containing all three of its old "Columbus ships."  I think (I'm honestly not sure) I also remember seeing ads in British magazines for a full set of the three from Revell.  I'm reasonably certain that the Nina and Pinta, at least, in that set were in fact Heller kits.  Whether the Heller Santa Maria ever got sold in a Revell box or not I'm not sure.

Bottom line:  there are two simililary-sized versions of the Santa Maria floating around out there, one from Revell and one from Heller.  (Maybe the easiest way to differentiate between them is by way of the crew figures.  The Revell kit has them; the Heller one doesn't.)  Any version of the Nina or Pinta you see is probably the Heller one - regardless of what the label on the box says.  (Exceptions:  Lindberg made a set of small-scale "Columbus ships" briefly, and I think one or more of the smaller European firms, such as Occidental, just may have.  But the Heller versions are by far the most common.)

I think that's the straight story - but I'm telling it strictly from an American viewpoint.  European Forum members may be able to shed some more light on it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: VIRGINIA - USA
Posted by Firecaptain on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:12 PM

So are the Heller and Revell kits the same?

 

 THANKS

Joe
  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: Atlanta, Georgia
Posted by RTimmer on Monday, September 1, 2008 11:25 AM

Many thanks to all who replied, especially Woodburner and Prof. Tilley!

I think I will give the Heller kits a go, and as a first approximation just try to have fun with them without too much anxiety about accuracy.

Thanks again, Rick

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