What's in a name?

searat12 wrote:

Well, one ritual that comes to mind is to walk backwards around the hauled-up ship, starting at the bow, while repeating the new name the whole time with a splash of whiskey against the hull side each time the new name is pronounced.  On the third time coming to the bow, the rest of the bottle is smashed against the bow, and the ship is then launched...... But there are a variety of regional variations on the theme (probably mostly relating the kind of booze available)!

searat12 wrote:

bbrowniii wrote: This is a pretty darn interesting conversation.  One question that I have, though - and which has been alluded to already, is this:  I thought it was (is) bad luck to re-name a ship, but there have been several references in here to ships that have been renamed either because they were acquired by a different navy or because another ship was acquiring that name.  So, naval history buffs, what is the deal with renaming a ship?   It is considered by all sailors to be bad luck to rename a ship.  However, if a ship MUST be renamed, there are a variety of rituals that can be performed to 'remove' the bad luck that might result from the name change......

What are some of those rituals? tripling the insurance value of the ship??? LOL...

bbrowniii wrote:

This is a pretty darn interesting conversation.  One question that I have, though - and which has been alluded to already, is this:  I thought it was (is) bad luck to re-name a ship, but there have been several references in here to ships that have been renamed either because they were acquired by a different navy or because another ship was acquiring that name.  So, naval history buffs, what is the deal with renaming a ship?

Professor, that was a real gem.

jtilley wrote:

The following may get me booted out of the Forum, but please note that Cap'nMac82 asked for it. A young executive in a midwestern corporation found he had to make a trip to Boston.  Never having been there, or to anywhere else in New England, he asked several of his co-workers what sights he should see, what restaurants he should eat at, and what local delicacies he ought to try.  One of the co-workers said he should be sure to try fried scrod. The guy got off his plane at Logan Airport and hailed a cab to take him to his hotel.  On the way, he asked the cab driver, "hey, where's the best place in this town to get scrod?" There were several seconds of silence, after which the cab driver said, "Mister, I've been driving a cab in Boston for thirty years and that's the first time anybody's ever asked me that question in the pluperfect subjunctive."

  Now that's just funny....

The following may get me booted out of the Forum, but please note that Cap'nMac82 asked for it.

A young executive in a midwestern corporation found he had to make a trip to Boston.  Never having been there, or to anywhere else in New England, he asked several of his co-workers what sights he should see, what restaurants he should eat at, and what local delicacies he ought to try.  One of the co-workers said he should be sure to try fried scrod.

The guy got off his plane at Logan Airport and hailed a cab to take him to his hotel.  On the way, he asked the cab driver, "hey, where's the best place in this town to get scrod?"

There were several seconds of silence, after which the cab driver said, "Mister, I've been driving a cab in Boston for thirty years and that's the first time anybody's ever asked me that question in the pluperfect subjunctive."

Royal Navy practice in the age of sail could be confusing, especially when the French name was re-rendered in English (Gloireux to Glorious, if memory serves rightly).

Not sure if enough USN prizes in the age of sail survived the battle enough to be named or renamed (consider Constitution's opponents for one).

Now, there is something to be said for at least a partially considered naming scheme.  So, if one names BBs for States, one can safely have around 50.  A similar number of heavy cruisers can be named for capitol cities.  Lighter cruizers can be named for different sized cities and allow for a few hundred names.  County and pblic figure names allow for a few thousand Destroyers, and so on.

That's one of the reasons for changing submarine names, they were starting into less-well known fish, Tuny, Wahoo, Skate.  Takes a nother turn when the fish type has other connotations--USS Cod (would USS Scrod need to be a midget sub>) or Hake, or Whiting or the like might not convey a suitably martial image (hmm, USS Sardine, or Herring, or Grunnion likely inapt as well, too).

At the time of the American Revolution the Randolphs were among the most famous, aristocratic families of Virginia.  Several of them played significant roles in the coming of the Revolution - most notably, perhaps, Peyton Randolph, who was the first president of the Continental Congress.  (The restored Peyton-Randolph House is around the corner from the Governor's Palace at Colonial Williamsburg.) 

In December, 1775, the Continental Congress authorized the construction of 13 frigates - the first purpose-built (as opposed to purchased) vessels of the newly-created Continental Navy.  One of them, built at Philadelphia and designed (apparently) by Joshua Humphreys, was named Randolph.  She was armed with 32 guns and launched on July 10, 1776.  (She's of particular interest to modelers and historians of naval architecture because she's the only one of those 13 frigates whose original plans have survived.  We know what two of the others, the Hancock and Raleigh, looked like because they got captured and their lines were taken off by the British.)  She saw more service than most of the others; her career ended in a spectacular manner when she blew up in the midst of a fight with the 64-gun ship-of-the-line Yarmouth off the coast of South Carolina in March, 1778. 

The Essex-class carrier (CV-15), only the second ship to bear the name, was named after this ship.

Regarding the renaming of ships - there is indeed an old, old superstition that the practice brings bad luck, but the truth of the matter is that it's been done thousands of times over the centuries - in navies and in the merchant service.  It's long been customary for companies and individuals who buy ships to rename them.  (Tracing the history of a freighter or passenger ship through Lloyd's Register often reveals that the ship in question had four or five names during her career.)  The U.S. Navy has done it less frequently than some, but there are quite a few examples.  And the old U.S. Revenue Cutter Service (one of the predecessors of the modern Coast Guard) was in the habit for a long time of renaming ships every few years.  It was customary to name a ship after the Secretary of the Treasury; when a new administration took office and the new president appointed a new cabinet, the ship named in honor of the old secretary would often get renamed for his successor.

Interesting thread. Manny has a way of coming up with good ones. I like the WWII subs with fish names. I think they should name a few more after fish.

Where did the USS Randolph come from?

Stikpusher, Red Storm Rising is a great book. That part is funny

In the Battle of Trafalgar, there were, if I recall correctly.... British and French ships that had been captured that retained their name. It just makes it more confusing when the book talks about them.

David

subfixer wrote:

The Royal Navy has the best names for their ships by far. I mean names like Courageous, Audacity and my favorite: Indefatigable. I dare the US Navy to come up with a name like that one! It just rolls off the tongue like a load of boulders.

agreed! 

not only that, but contemporary statesmen really knew it!!!! 'Parking' [!] a ship named Invincible or courageous offshore of a colony had quite an impact on the 'natives' (i apologise for the really rather crude terms, but this REALLY was how gun-boat diplomacy was perceived in London during the 19th century.) The connotations of imperial or grand-sounding western names were really rather important. I imagine Dutch and French ships did something similar too. 

Indeed, even though today people think of HMS Hood purely in terms of her tragic loss during WWII, during the 20's and 30's there was a huge political statement to be made by sending 'Hood' out to foreign countries to fly the flag.

On the other hand, earlier Royal Navy practice seemed to name ships pretty much randomly from greek or Roman mythology. Today I suppose we can see this as Enlightenment era posturing. Few seemed to have any really strong allegorical reasons for choosing particular names. HMS Bellerophon being a particularly notorious example of a classical name meaningless to 99% of the British population, and therefore variously ended up called the 'billy ruffian' or  'billy ruff'n' by her crews and indeed the UK population as a whole.

In relation to RE-NAMING;

many a captured prize kept her original name, which in the Royal Navy at least seemed to serve to emphasise the achievemnt of winning her. Commerce De Marseille is a notable exmple of a prize captured from the French in 1793 that kept her French name simply to emphasise the political capital gained by her capture. It was certainly common for a Frenchname to be retained on capture, or perhaps anglicised slightly.  I don't think the US navy took quite the same line, although I would like to know more- viz, did they rename captured ships after the man or action by which she was captured?

I must admit the renaming issue gets a bit confusing when studying a few 1-on-1 actions during the French Rev. wars, when sometimes the French ship had a Brtish-captured name and the British ship had a French-captured name, but it appears to have happened quite often!

All in all, a very interesting subject, and one that would tell a lot about the way a government perceived its political history- and of course, conception of it's position in the current world stage. Every country had its ships named for heros, notable actions, foreign prizes, or statements of intent. 

Will 

jtilley wrote:

One freakish example we haven't yet discussed in this interesting discussion of ship names - and specifically names of American aircraft carriers:  a carrier named after a geographic place that never existed. In 1933 the British novelist James Hilton published a book called Lost Horizon, which took place in a mythical, utopian community called "Shangri-La" in the mountains of Tibet.  The novel was a smashing success in both Britain and the U.S.; the "pocket book" edition of it was instrumental in bringing about the "paperback revolution" in publishing.  In 1937 it was made into a hit movie, with Ronald Coleman.  After the Doolittle Raid on Japan, in April, 1942, FDR quickly made a public announcement that American aircraft had dropped bombs on the Japanese home islands.  The details of the raid, including the fact that Doolitte's B-25s had taken off from the U.S.S. Hornet, were highly classified.  When a reporter asked Roosevelt where the planes had come from, he said "they came from Shangri-La."  I just looked up James Hilton on Wikipedia, which mentions, among other interesting tidbits, that Roosevelt in fact named his presidential retreat in Maryland "Shangri-La."  I don't imagine that was what he was referring to in answering the reporter's question - but I guess there was, technically, an actual place with that name.  (Wikipedia also notes that Lost Horizon was later made into a Broadway musical, which the reference discribes as "disastrous," and a second movie, also with music - and Peter O'Toole, among others - which the critics seem to agree was even worse.) At any rate, the next year the name was given to a new Essex-class carrier.  (Mrs. Doolittle was the ship's sponsor.)  The U.S.S. Shangri La ran up a distinguished combat record in the latter phases of the Pacific war and after, remaining in service until 1971.  She was scrapped in 1988. Plenty of warships of western navies have been named for heroes of mythology, but I wonder if any other one has been named after a mythical place.

And the next day the Japanese said "bombed Shangri-La"

I always liked that part of the story.....

Not to get off topic......but the other book by James D. Hornfischer, Ship of Ghosts, is also very good. Its about the USS Houston. If you haven't read Last Stand, get it, you won't be dissapointed.

jtilley wrote:

One freakish example we haven't yet discussed in this interesting discussion of ship names - and specifically names of American aircraft carriers:  a carrier named after a geographic place that never existed. In 1933 the British novelist James Hilton published a book called Lost Horizon, which took place in a mythical, utopian community called "Shangri-La" in the mountains of Tibet.  The novel was a smashing success in both Britain and the U.S.; the "pocket book" edition of it was instrumental in bringing about the "paperback revolution" in publishing.  In 1937 it was made into a hit movie, with Ronald Coleman.  After the Doolittle Raid on Japan, in April, 1942, FDR quickly made a public announcement that American aircraft had dropped bombs on the Japanese home islands.  The details of the raid, including the fact that Doolitte's B-25s had taken off from the U.S.S. Hornet, were highly classified.  When a reporter asked Roosevelt where the planes had come from, he said "they came from Shangri-La."  I just looked up James Hilton on Wikipedia, which mentions, among other interesting tidbits, that Roosevelt in fact named his presidential retreat in Maryland "Shangri-La."  I don't imagine that was what he was referring to in answering the reporter's question - but I guess there was, technically, an actual place with that name.  (Wikipedia also notes that Lost Horizon was later made into a Broadway musical, which the reference discribes as "disastrous," and a second movie, also with music - and Peter O'Toole, among others - which the critics seem to agree was even worse.) At any rate, the next year the name was given to a new Essex-class carrier.  (Mrs. Doolittle was the ship's sponsor.)  The U.S.S. Shangri La ran up a distinguished combat record in the latter phases of the Pacific war and after, remaining in service until 1971.  She was scrapped in 1988. Plenty of warships of western navies have been named for heroes of mythology, but I wonder if any other one has been named after a mythical place.

subfixer wrote:

The Royal Navy has the best names for their ships by far. I mean names like Courageous, Audacity and my favorite: Indefatigable. I dare the US Navy to come up with a name like that one! It just rolls off the tongue like a load of boulders.

If anyone here has read Tom Clancy's book "Red Storm Rising", there is a passage that addresses this. At one point in the the story, the frigate USS Rueben James joins up with the HMS Battleaxe at sea. The Battleaxe blinkers the message, "What the devil is a Rueben James", to which the commander of the Rueben James orders as a reply, "at least we dont name our ships after our mother in laws".

One freakish example we haven't yet discussed in this interesting discussion of ship names - and specifically names of American aircraft carriers:  a carrier named after a geographic place that never existed.

In 1933 the British novelist James Hilton published a book called Lost Horizon, which took place in a mythical, utopian community called "Shangri-La" in the mountains of Tibet.  The novel was a smashing success in both Britain and the U.S.; the "pocket book" edition of it was instrumental in bringing about the "paperback revolution" in publishing.  In 1937 it was made into a hit movie, with Ronald Coleman. 

After the Doolittle Raid on Japan, in April, 1942, FDR quickly made a public announcement that American aircraft had dropped bombs on the Japanese home islands.  The details of the raid, including the fact that Doolitte's B-25s had taken off from the U.S.S. Hornet, were highly classified.  When a reporter asked Roosevelt where the planes had come from, he said "they came from Shangri-La." 

I just looked up James Hilton on Wikipedia, which mentions, among other interesting tidbits, that Roosevelt in fact named his presidential retreat in Maryland "Shangri-La."  I don't imagine that was what he was referring to in answering the reporter's question - but I guess there was, technically, an actual place with that name.  (Wikipedia also notes that Lost Horizon was later made into a Broadway musical, which the reference discribes as "disastrous," and a second movie, also with music - and Peter O'Toole, among others - which the critics seem to agree was even worse.)

At any rate, the next year the name was given to a new Essex-class carrier.  (Mrs. Doolittle was the ship's sponsor.)  The U.S.S. Shangri La ran up a distinguished combat record in the latter phases of the Pacific war and after, remaining in service until 1971.  She was scrapped in 1988.

Plenty of warships of western navies have been named for heroes of mythology, but I wonder if any other one has been named after a mythical place. 

firesmacker wrote:

Manny, That one snippet "...The World Wonders..." Brought about "Halsey's Typhoon". Another great read.

Actually that was "padding" used in a communication to Halsey after he went chasing Ozawa's carriers North during the battle of Leyte Gulf...he left the beachead "unprotected" and proceed to pummel the carrier "bait" that was sent to lure him...he wasn't able to finish either job after he got the communication as he turned southward before polishing off all of the carriers, and of course arriving too late to partake in destroying any of the other Japanese elements that were already begining to retire...he was pissed to no end...

The typhoon scandal came later (December?) and most probably had the country not been at war he would have been cashiered out of the Navy for his poor decision in regards to how he handled the fleet during the storm...

ddp59 wrote:

Manstein, wrong. Fate: Sunk by a Japanese kamikaze off Samar, Battle of Leyte Gulf, October 25, 1944 USS St. Lo and the other ships and aircraft of "Taffy 3," aided by planes of "Taffy 2," gallantly fought and stopped the powerful Japanese Center Force, and inflicted significant losses on the enemy. But at 1050 the task unit came under a concentrated air attack; one plane crashed through St. Lo's flight deck and exploded her torpedo and bomb magazine, mortally wounding the carrier. St. Lo was engulfed in flames and sank half an hour later. One hundred and twenty-six men were lost with the ship and remain on active duty.

"...the world wonders..."

 Manstein, wrong.

Fate: Sunk by a Japanese kamikaze off Samar, Battle of Leyte Gulf, October 25, 1944

USS St. Lo and the other ships and aircraft of "Taffy 3," aided by planes of "Taffy 2," gallantly fought and stopped the powerful Japanese Center Force, and inflicted significant losses on the enemy. But at 1050 the task unit came under a concentrated air attack; one plane crashed through St. Lo's flight deck and exploded her torpedo and bomb magazine, mortally wounding the carrier. St. Lo was engulfed in flames and sank half an hour later.

One hundred and twenty-six men were lost with the ship and remain on active duty.

EdGrune wrote:

Yes.  CVE-63 was laid down as the Chapin Bay, and was renamed Midway on 3APR43.  She was launched in 17Aug43.   Sailed several cruises in the Pacific as the Midway,  Was renamed 10OCT44 as StLo to clear the name for the large carrier under constriction.  "After a refueling period, MIDWAY resumed air operations in the Palaus until returning to Seeadler Harbor, 3 October.  There, word arrived that the escort carrier had been renamed ST. LO, 10 October, to free the name MIDWAY for a new giant attack carrier and to commemorate an important victory of American troops in France who had captured the strongly defended town, ST. LO, 18 July 1944." quote DANFS entry via NAVSOURCE

subfixer wrote:

Naval communication protocol doesn't allow the use of the ship's name to be used over the radio so that does not come into play. Ship to ship radio traffic is scrambled and even then code names are assigned to each ship. Each ship has its own unique electronic personality (so to say) that anyone with the database could use to identify an individual ship. Like sonar profiles, a vessel has an electronic profile. Emission controls are very important when a ship is trying to be incognito. A vessel can mimic the emission profile of another to confuse an opponent. I remember the USS Forrestal coming into port with its hull numbers changed to look like the Saratoga. All kinds of cat and mouse stuff goes on out at sea. It makes no difference what the ship's name is.

Yes. 

CVE-63 was laid down as the Chapin Bay, and was renamed Midway on 3APR43.  She was launched in 17Aug43.   Sailed several cruises in the Pacific as the Midway,  Was renamed 10OCT44 as StLo to clear the name for the large carrier under constriction. 

"After a refueling period, MIDWAY resumed air operations in the Palaus until returning to Seeadler Harbor, 3 October.  There, word arrived that the escort carrier had been renamed
ST. LO, 10 October, to free the name MIDWAY for a new giant attack carrier and to commemorate an important victory of American troops in France who had captured the strongly
defended town, ST. LO, 18 July 1944."

quote DANFS entry via NAVSOURCE