Sharpest naval engagement of WW II...

Picking up sailors from sunken ships was hazardous business, especially if there was even a hint of submarines in the area..... In WW1, U-9 sank three British armored cruisers, one after the other.  The second was sunk while trying to rescue sailors from the first, and the third was sunk trying to rrescue sailors from the first two..... During WW2, there were a number of incidents involving convoys under U-boat attack where all the ships in the convoy were forced to continue on, while watching one ship after another get torpedoed and sinking in flames, but nothing could be done for the Merchant Marine sailors jumping overboard....... So maybe THAT's the 'sharpest naval engagement,' the Battle of the Atlantic.......... I remember my mother telling me that through much of WW2, and for a very long time afterwards, all the beaches on Cape Cod were covered in oil from tankers sunk by U-boats offshore......

Mansteins revenge wrote:

squeakie wrote:  Nelson Ott wrote:  eatthis wrote: sharpest engagement is a little bit vague tbh. if you mean brutal you could argue the hood vs bismark and the resulting hunt for bismark was borderline tragic. hood exploded killing all but 3 of her crew! over 1400 men gone and when bismark sunk we only rescued 100 or so of her 2200 crew so between the 2 ships around 3500 men were lost which is horrific when you think about ith even spetember 11 wasnt that high  Back to topic subject ... This statement is absolutely right. Hood x Bismarck and Bismarck chase were such brutal episodes that British sailors didn't even commemorate it when the Bismarck was sunk; they were horrified by the vision of destruction and hundreds of dead German sailors floating. Everyone was shocked. The few German survivors had a very respectful treatment by the British due to their gallantry in combat. 3500 men lost in a single episode ... This is almost double the no. of casualties in Pearl Harbor. And this episode doesn't have half of the noise or so many films ... (Sorry). Regards, Nelson I watched an episode on the History Channel about the sinking of the Bismark, and after interviewing many of the British sailors I was sortta horrified! They refused to pick sailors swimming in that forty degree water, and left them to drown. They even admitted it on national TV. gary Let's be fair...they pulled away after a U-Boat periscope was sighted...no responsible Captain would risk the lives of his men to pick up enemy soldiers...They did stop and retrieve 135 survivors until the periscope was seen...

That's not what they said. They just left them there (many were twenty feet away). I think it was an excuse for what they did. (I'm not taking sides here as I have no iron in this fire)

gary

what about that naval battle fought between german and birtish cruiser at Coronel. No aircraft involved just pure gunfight and one hell of it, or how about the following engagement at the Falklands.

Keep on modeling

René

wwww.usns.biz 

squeakie wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote:  squeakie wrote:  Nelson Ott wrote:  eatthis wrote: sharpest engagement is a little bit vague tbh. if you mean brutal you could argue the hood vs bismark and the resulting hunt for bismark was borderline tragic. hood exploded killing all but 3 of her crew! over 1400 men gone and when bismark sunk we only rescued 100 or so of her 2200 crew so between the 2 ships around 3500 men were lost which is horrific when you think about ith even spetember 11 wasnt that high  Back to topic subject ... This statement is absolutely right. Hood x Bismarck and Bismarck chase were such brutal episodes that British sailors didn't even commemorate it when the Bismarck was sunk; they were horrified by the vision of destruction and hundreds of dead German sailors floating. Everyone was shocked. The few German survivors had a very respectful treatment by the British due to their gallantry in combat. 3500 men lost in a single episode ... This is almost double the no. of casualties in Pearl Harbor. And this episode doesn't have half of the noise or so many films ... (Sorry). Regards, Nelson I watched an episode on the History Channel about the sinking of the Bismark, and after interviewing many of the British sailors I was sortta horrified! They refused to pick sailors swimming in that forty degree water, and left them to drown. They even admitted it on national TV. gary Let's be fair...they pulled away after a U-Boat periscope was sighted...no responsible Captain would risk the lives of his men to pick up enemy soldiers...They did stop and retrieve 135 survivors until the periscope was seen... That's not what they said. They just left them there (many were twenty feet away). I think it was an excuse for what they did. (I'm not taking sides here as I have no iron in this fire) gary

Doesn't matter what one person said in that interview; it is fact that the rescue operation was stopped when a U-Boat was thought to be in the area...The picking up of survivors is in every history I have ever read of the engagement...in fact, there are B&W still photographs of Bismark survivors being yanked outta the sea taken from British ships...If the intention was to let everyone drown, why were over 100 rescued? Let's use some common sense...

Mansteins revenge wrote:

squeakie wrote:  Mansteins revenge wrote:  squeakie wrote:  Nelson Ott wrote:  eatthis wrote: sharpest engagement is a little bit vague tbh. if you mean brutal you could argue the hood vs bismark and the resulting hunt for bismark was borderline tragic. hood exploded killing all but 3 of her crew! over 1400 men gone and when bismark sunk we only rescued 100 or so of her 2200 crew so between the 2 ships around 3500 men were lost which is horrific when you think about ith even spetember 11 wasnt that high  Back to topic subject ... This statement is absolutely right. Hood x Bismarck and Bismarck chase were such brutal episodes that British sailors didn't even commemorate it when the Bismarck was sunk; they were horrified by the vision of destruction and hundreds of dead German sailors floating. Everyone was shocked. The few German survivors had a very respectful treatment by the British due to their gallantry in combat. 3500 men lost in a single episode ... This is almost double the no. of casualties in Pearl Harbor. And this episode doesn't have half of the noise or so many films ... (Sorry). Regards, Nelson I watched an episode on the History Channel about the sinking of the Bismark, and after interviewing many of the British sailors I was sortta horrified! They refused to pick sailors swimming in that forty degree water, and left them to drown. They even admitted it on national TV. gary Let's be fair...they pulled away after a U-Boat periscope was sighted...no responsible Captain would risk the lives of his men to pick up enemy soldiers...They did stop and retrieve 135 survivors until the periscope was seen... That's not what they said. They just left them there (many were twenty feet away). I think it was an excuse for what they did. (I'm not taking sides here as I have no iron in this fire) gary Doesn't matter what one person said in that interview; it is fact that the rescue operation was stopped when a U-Boat was thought to be in the area...The picking up of survivors is in every history I have ever read of the engagement...in fact, there are B&W still photographs of Bismark survivors being yanked outta the sea taken from British ships...If the intention was to let everyone drown, why were over 100 rescued? Let's use some common sense...

With you there Manny.  The brutal reality is there were many incidents during both world wars when crews from sunk or stricken vessels were left to fend for themselves in the water.  At the same time, there are cases where extreme measures were taken to rescue the crews of (enemy) ships that were sunk.  I can't recall the specifics, but I recall a reading about a U-Boat that sunk a British ship, then surfaced to rescue the crews.  There were several lifeboats full of survivors (too many to take on board) so the U-Boat towed the boats to shore, despite being strafed by British planes (I know I am forgetting a lot of the details of this event - I think it happened in the Med or near Gibraltar - but this is the bare bones of it).  Both sides left crews that probably could/should have been saved, and both sides risked their own safety to save crews...

....And of course, there were also very ugly incidents as well, like when the Japanese cruisers Mogami, Suzuya, etc. sank a large British freighter in the Indian ocean, rescued all the crew, and then shot them all and shoved the bodies overboard as revenge against the crew for radioing a distress call......

searat12 wrote:

....And of course, there were also very ugly incidents as well, like when the Japanese cruisers Mogami, Suzuya, etc. sank a large British freighter in the Indian ocean, rescued all the crew, and then shot them all and shoved the bodies overboard as revenge against the crew for radioing a distress call......

Yeah, the Japanese were good at this type of thing...I think they did a similar thing during Leyte Gulf; maybe the Fuso and Yamashiro picked up some survivors from sunken destroyers and beheaded them...later both Japanese BB's were sunk...

Hieronymus wrote:

what about that naval battle fought between german and birtish cruiser at Coronel. No aircraft involved just pure gunfight and one hell of it, or how about the following engagement at the Falklands. Keep on modeling René wwww.usns.biz

Oh yes, that was a helluva fight, but it was also in WW1, not WW2.....

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have taken a closer look at the first topic.

 

But hey what's the matter WWI or WWII what's the difference in such a naval engagement,just as the saying goes:

back in  the old days people shared a much closer companionship to each other.............sure, their weapons lacked the range!

 

Keep on modeling

René

www.usns.biz

I'm not too much into Naval, but a nice one, not surfaced tho', in my opinion, not surfaced tho', is U-864 aginst HMS Venture. U-864 had several tons of alot of different materials onboard, and some scientists. This was all going to Japan via Norway and Russia. It took place in 1945.

 U-864 docked at Bergen, Norway and shortly went out to sea again. HMS Venture got reports of a German uboat in the area of Bergen and started hunting the U-864.

Fedje, just north of Bergen, the two submarines met. Both was surfaced and quickly diving. HMS Venture fired 4 torpedoes, and one did infact hit the U-864 in the middle, blowing away a part of the conningtower.

 

This small clash was the first, and only, time in history One submarine took out another one while both were underwater. And U-864 still lay on the bottom, just outside Fedje, and is an enviromental catasrophy with the different materials it had..

 

Hope it can be to any help, or interest. :)

 

-Huxy 

Huxy wrote:

I'm not too much into Naval, but a nice one, not surfaced tho', in my opinion, not surfaced tho', is U-864 aginst HMS Venture. U-864 had several tons of alot of different materials onboard, and some scientists. This was all going to Japan via Norway and Russia. It took place in 1945.  U-864 docked at Bergen, Norway and shortly went out to sea again. HMS Venture got reports of a German uboat in the area of Bergen and started hunting the U-864. Fedje, just north of Bergen, the two submarines met. Both was surfaced and quickly diving. HMS Venture fired 4 torpedoes, and one did infact hit the U-864 in the middle, blowing away a part of the conningtower.   This small clash was the first, and only, time in history One submarine took out another one while both were underwater. And U-864 still lay on the bottom, just outside Fedje, and is an enviromental catasrophy with the different materials it had..   Hope it can be to any help, or interest. :)   -Huxy

What toxic materials were on board???

65 tons of mercury, along with jet engine parts, plans for the Messerschmidt 262, etc, etc...

Yes, or 1857 bottles with togheter 65 tons of mercury.

Hitlers plan was with the ME262 plans and parts, Japan could gain airspace, and USA would be forced to get resources out of Europe and to the Pacific.

 

This is what scares the government:

 

The bottles are desintrigating (Think that would be the correct word) and the mercury is leaking. 

 

 

The Uboat, along with 73 men, rests at the bottom, two nautic miles outside Fedje at 152m depth.

 

A shot of the HMS Venturer (Forgot the last letter in the name in my previous post.. so it is Venturer) :

The sub was given to Norway in 1946 and renamed KNM Utstein. It is now at display on the Navymuseum at Horten, just south for Oslo.

 

And for the U-864, it was an Uboat of Type ID-X2.

 

Hope this gives more information you can learn of :) 

-Huxy

 

Didn't I read something in the last year or two that the Norwegian government was trying to come up with some sort of plan to cover that U-boat wreck (U-864) with some sort of concrete/sand/gravel concoction to prevent the mercury from leaching out into the environment?

Huxy wrote:

I'm not too much into Naval, but a nice one, not surfaced tho', in my opinion, not surfaced tho', is U-864 aginst HMS Venture. U-864 had several tons of alot of different materials onboard, and some scientists. This was all going to Japan via Norway and Russia. It took place in 1945.  U-864 docked at Bergen, Norway and shortly went out to sea again. HMS Venture got reports of a German uboat in the area of Bergen and started hunting the U-864. Fedje, just north of Bergen, the two submarines met. Both was surfaced and quickly diving. HMS Venture fired 4 torpedoes, and one did infact hit the U-864 in the middle, blowing away a part of the conningtower.   This small clash was the first, and only, time in history One submarine took out another one while both were underwater. And U-864 still lay on the bottom, just outside Fedje, and is an enviromental catasrophy with the different materials it had..   Hope it can be to any help, or interest. :)   -Huxy

I thought that there was an incident where a U.S. submarine sank a Japanese sub in late 1942 or early 1943 off the coast of Japan. I know it was kinda early in the war when they were having so much trouble with the torpedos not exploding on impact, and the ones the were using were the latest revision. Fiction?

gary

Huxy wrote:

Yes, or 1857 bottles with togheter 65 tons of mercury. Hitlers plan was with the ME262 plans and parts, Japan could gain airspace, and USA would be forced to get resources out of Europe and to the Pacific.   This is what scares the government:   The bottles are desintrigating (Think that would be the correct word) and the mercury is leaking.      The Uboat, along with 73 men, rests at the bottom, two nautic miles outside Fedje at 152m depth.   A shot of the HMS Venturer (Forgot the last letter in the name in my previous post.. so it is Venturer) : The sub was given to Norway in 1946 and renamed KNM Utstein. It is now at display on the Navymuseum at Horten, just south for Oslo.   And for the U-864, it was an Uboat of Type ID-X2.   Hope this gives more information you can learn of :)  -Huxy

somewhere in that area there are many containers of Tauben (sp) dumped in the ocean (Allies did this one). That's considered the world's most deadly nerve agent, and sooner or later they're going to have to recover them. I remember that one being discussed many times in the past.

gary

 Haven't heard anything about that nerve agent.. hmm...

 

 

bbrowniii wrote:

Didn't I read something in the last year or two that the Norwegian government was trying to come up with some sort of plan to cover that U-boat wreck (U-864) with some sort of concrete/sand/gravel concoction to prevent the mercury from leaching out into the environment?

 

Ya, the government came to a desission recently..They are going to seal the entire sub with concrete.... sad... There goes yet another Uboat.. 

squeakie wrote:

Huxy wrote: I'm not too much into Naval, but a nice one, not surfaced tho', in my opinion, not surfaced tho', is U-864 aginst HMS Venture. U-864 had several tons of alot of different materials onboard, and some scientists. This was all going to Japan via Norway and Russia. It took place in 1945.  U-864 docked at Bergen, Norway and shortly went out to sea again. HMS Venture got reports of a German uboat in the area of Bergen and started hunting the U-864. Fedje, just north of Bergen, the two submarines met. Both was surfaced and quickly diving. HMS Venture fired 4 torpedoes, and one did infact hit the U-864 in the middle, blowing away a part of the conningtower.   This small clash was the first, and only, time in history One submarine took out another one while both were underwater. And U-864 still lay on the bottom, just outside Fedje, and is an enviromental catasrophy with the different materials it had..   Hope it can be to any help, or interest. :)   -Huxy  I thought that there was an incident where a U.S. submarine sank a Japanese sub in late 1942 or early 1943 off the coast of Japan. I know it was kinda early in the war when they were having so much trouble with the torpedos not exploding on impact, and the ones the were using were the latest revision. Fiction? gary

I have never heard of another "underwater " sub to sub engagement. I was given an old American Legion Magazine back in the 1980's that had a US. Sub in the pacific that sank itself due to a malfunctioning torpedo. Apparently the torpedo came around in a large circle.  Can't find the article though but I remember it being on the cover of the magazine.

on 11oct 1944, uss tang (dick o'kane, medal of honor) was sunk by an errant torpedo. he and 8 crew members survived and were held prisoner until the end of the war.

Brilliant f*** Idiots.  The mercury IS recoverable.  Far better to recover it than cover it, because even underwater mercury will escape capture.  It's a liquid.  And the toxicity really shouldn't be much concern considering the depth.  The colder the mercury the better as it "vaporizes" less.  Yes, it'll vaporize even under water.  But considering the depth and temperature, it's truly minimal.