Sharpest naval engagement of WW II...

ddp59 wrote:

it wasn't the ground defeats that did in the japanese but the sea & air that caused the japanese to withdraw their troops.

I supose my point is that neither side could claim to "own" the sea during the campaign, especially at night...it is true, however, that the Allies did own the air, and that during daylight any Japanese ship within 200 miles of henderson field was subject to air attack...By night, however, the Japanese doled out more punishment than they received...re-supply, or the lack of it, caused the Japanese to ulimately concede the Solomons...but that was a mute point, IMO...they got their @sses handed to them in every ground engagement...

it wasn't the ground defeats that did in the japanese but the sea & air that caused the japanese to withdraw their troops.

stikpusher wrote:

Manny, the action you're asking about is what US historians call the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal and the Japanese call 2nd Battle of Savo Island. A mixed US cruiser force engaged a Japanese Battleship/cruiser force at close range in Nov. The US cruisers were savaged, but the Japanese bombardment force was turned back away from Guadalcanal. Coupled with ensuing air actions and the Battleship duel the next night this total action is where Japanese surface forces no longer ruled the seas at night around Guadalcanal.

Yeah, looking back at my refs I see that...there were so many battle in Oct and Nov of '42 that it gets confusing, although I disagree that the battle was decisive in the way you describe.  There were at least two more battles after that in which the Japanese sunk 1 more cruiser and 3 destroyers with no losses of their own (Nov 14/15 and Nov 30)...So IMO the Japanese, although not able to destroy the beachhead, never was ejected from the sea until they decided to pull out of the campaign because of the ground defeats...wow, 2 US Admirals killed in one engagement---that wins in my book as "sharpest"... 

Hmmmm.... I seem to recall the Japanese losing super battleship Musashi, and the heavy cruisers Atago, Maya were sunk by submarines, while Takao was so badly damaged by submarine torpedos that she had to stagger back to Singapore, never to operate again.... And that was just on the WAY to Samar!  In the battle itself, heavy cruiser Chikuma was hit by aerial torpedos, as was Chokai, along with repeated bomb hits, and were both scuttled by their own side.  Kumano and Haguro were both hit badly by US destroyers, true, but Suzuya was hammered with bombs, and followed by three aerial torpedos from over 30 planes, attacking just her, was also sunk with massive loss of life.......

Most of the sorties flown against the Central Force off Samar were armed with ground support weapons, not antiship weapons. This cut down majorly on the ability to inflict fatal damage to the Japanese force. The Escort carrier task groups primary mission was close air support of ground troops and the carrier magazines were stocked accordingly. Many runs were made with only .50 cals, or nothing at all, just to make the Japanese ship skippers think torpedo runs were being conducted. While they took some heat off of the Jeep carriers, the capability to inflict severe damage from the air was not in their capability that morning.

The most serious damage was inflicted by the escorting DDs and DEs during their charge at and torpedo attack upon the Central force. This torpedo attack also had the affect of forcing Yamato to take evasive action in avoiding the topedoes aimed at her which removed her from the battle. The escorts paid dearly for their brazen actions, but their actions helped carry the day.

BTW, total Japanese planes launched to strike Pearl Harbor was over 350. There were roughly 180 in each wave.

I think I need to re-read my Battle of Leyte Gulf book... Good stuff here.

For a series of protracted intense surface battles in WWII, the Solomons campaign has no equal. A grinding war of attrition between two navies that were closely matched-one better trained and expereinced, one better able to replace losses. But for an all out decisive surface fight between two navies, Leyte Gulf is certainly the example of that war. The Japanese carrier fleet, which was no longer a viable threat was removed. Their surface forces, which were still quite significant, and as shown, could inflict major battle upon an unwary force, were savaged and removed as a major threat for the last year of the war.

Actually, I don't see that as a one-sided fight, except perhaps in favor of the US.... The Taffy's and land-based aircraft numbers were enormous!  Something over 500 US planes were in on the attack (to compare, the Japanese launched 180 planes at Pearl Harbor).  This is the equivalent of the full airpower of SIX heavy fleet carriers!  What is surprising is that any of the Japanese ships managed to escape at all (and that includes Yamato!).......

The battle off Samar featuring Taffy 3, a small task force made up of escort carriers

a few Destroyers and some Destroyer Escorts against The Battleship Yamato and her battle

group.  Had to be one of the most one sided Naval battles in history.  Literally a

 "David and Goliath" kind of fight.

Ray

The Battle of Vella Gulf was another night action but resulted in the first US win in a night time torpedo duel. Three Japanese destroyers were sunk, one damaged and over 1,000 troops and sailors were lost. Not one US ship was hit by even a single bullet. The Tokyo Express was stopped and the island of Kolombangara was neutralized, allowing it to be bypassed by Allied forces who then went on to capture Vella Lavella.

Manny, the action you're asking about is what US historians call the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal and the Japanese call 2nd Battle of Savo Island. A mixed US cruiser force engaged a Japanese Battleship/cruiser force at close range in Nov. The US cruisers were savaged, but the Japanese bombardment force was turned back away from Guadalcanal. Coupled with ensuing air actions and the Battleship duel the next night this total action is where Japanese surface forces no longer ruled the seas at night around Guadalcanal.

No, this was the first battle, with 'Chokai' in the lead, followed by Aoba, Kako, Kinugasa, Furutaka, Tenryu, Yubari and destroyer Yunagi, against 'Canberra' Chicago, Vincennes, Astoria, and Quincy, followed by destroyers Helm, Patterson and Wilson, and destroyers Blue, Jarvis and Ralph Talbot on screen.  Just to the East were the light cruisers San Juan and Hobart, with destroyers Monssen and Buchanan.  By the time they were finished, Canberra was sunk, as was Astoria, Vincennes and Quincy, while the Chicago was badly damaged and wandered entirely out of the battle area  Patterson was also badly damaged, Bagley got lost, and was finally found by Wilson, and the Ralph Talbot was heavily damaged by the withdrawing Japanese.  Over 1,023 US sailors were killed, and 709 wounded, with only 34 Japanese dead, 34 wounded, and very minor shell damage among the Japanes ships. 

searat12 wrote:

I think the Savo Island engagement at Guadalcanal (also called the First Battle of the Solomon Sea) was probably the most awful and horrific battle between two roughly equal forces.  The Japanese under Mikawa really clobbered the Americans, although the numbers of ships in the area convinced Mikawa to turn back without shelling Henderson Field or the transport ships (now that REALLY would have been a disaster of the first magnitude!)...... The forces engaged were quite equal, and if anythiing, favored the Allies.  Mikawa with his five heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and a single destroyer, against the heavy cruisers Chicago, Canberra, Quincy, Astoria and Vincennes, plus a half dozen destroyers, and Mikawa sank or damaged most of them in a terrific and confused firefight....

Is this the same fight in which the Atlanta and Juneau were sunk? And 2 American Admirals killed? If so, the San Fransisco was also present and fired on the Atlanta by mistake, which killed one of the Admirals...maybe it was the 2nd Battle of Savo Island?

I think the Savo Island engagement at Guadalcanal (also called the First Battle of the Solomon Sea) was probably the most awful and horrific battle between two roughly equal forces.  The Japanese under Mikawa really clobbered the Americans, although the numbers of ships in the area convinced Mikawa to turn back without shelling Henderson Field or the transport ships (now that REALLY would have been a disaster of the first magnitude!)...... The forces engaged were quite equal, and if anythiing, favored the Allies.  Mikawa with his five heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and a single destroyer, against the heavy cruisers Chicago, Canberra, Quincy, Astoria and Vincennes, plus a half dozen destroyers, and Mikawa sank or damaged most of them in a terrific and confused firefight....

For a one sided fight, I would put Savo Island down as the sharpest. But for an evenly matched close range fight, both of the night actions off Guadalcanal in November certainly are jsut as intense.  And finally, for an underdog actually surviving the fight very well, the battle off Samar during Leyte Gulf when the Escort Carriers were set upon by the massive Central Force was one for the history books.

River Platte

JMart wrote:

iron bottom sound would be my vote for sheer "sharpest" as a function of time, probably many nightime engagements

I would tend to agree, but remember that there were several separate engagements around Savo Island/Guadulcanal that had different names---which of these, specifically?

iron bottom sound would be my vote

for sheer "sharpest" as a function of time, probably many nightime engagements

 

sfcmac wrote:

Well the whole Guadicanal Campaign for a real battle. Iron Bottom sound was so named for a reason.  Single Action? So many to choose from that were just horrific. Can't think of any that really didn't end lopsided. Quick knockouts mostly hmmmm. The most epic I think is the Hood and Bismarck.

Kind of a toss up here. It's either the East Java Sea or Iron Bottom Sound.

gary

Certainly one of the bravest actions was that of HMS Rawalpindi, a converted P & O liner armed with eight 6-inch and two 3-inch guns. While patrolling north of the Faroe Islands on 23 November 1939, she investigated a possible enemy sighting, only to find that she had encountered two of the most powerful German warships, the battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau trying to break out into the Atlantic. The Rawalpindi was able to signal the German ships' location back to base. Despite being hopelessly outgunned, Captain Kennedy of the Rawalpindi decided to fight, rather than surrender as demanded by the Germans. The German warships returned fire and sank Rawalpindi within forty minutes.

Two hundred and thirty eight men died, including Captain Kennedy. Thirty seven men were rescued by the German ships and a further 11 were picked up by HMS Chitral (another converted passenger ship). 

Thanks to the actions of the Rawalpindi the German attempt to break out into the Atlantic was foiled. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were forced to return to base in order to avoid interception by the RN.

Rick

 Well the whole Guadicanal Campaign for a real battle. Iron Bottom sound was so named for a reason.

 Single Action? So many to choose from that were just horrific. Can't think of any that really didn't end lopsided. Quick knockouts mostly hmmmm. The most epic I think is the Hood and Bismarck.

Solomon Islands