Regarding T2 tankers

I think you need to turn up the "realism" scale on that game.

ddp59 wrote:

bondo, why use 2 kits to make 1 ship when it can be done with 1 kit? just cut the model in half on the straight flat part of the hull & put an scratchbuilt styrene insert in between the 2 cut sections. i've done that twice now in converting 2 airfix 1/600 ajax hulls into hms exeter & hms york. had to widen the hulls by 1mm & lengthen the hulls by about 11mm. used 1mm(.040")styrene to make a new lengthened profile of the ship, cut the hulls across the middle then glued them in the correct spots on either side of the profile & enclosed gap in the middle with 1mm plastic plates. once glue dried i then sanded it smooth & just have to make 2 new keel bilges on each ship. onyx, is it possible to get a copy of the plans, even scanned versions?

Fred's referring to the order forms. I've got a copy and I'm going to order the T3 drawing, the overall is probably enough. They are too big to scan at least for me.

onyxman wrote:

I think you need to turn up the "realism" scale on that game.

bondoman wrote:

The Revell model measures out, at the stated scale of 1/400, at 520 feet overall, which is pretty close to a T2. So a T3 would be an elongation of 30 feet at scale, or 0.90 inches. That can't be ignored. The next step in the next ship model project; there, I've declared it, would be a T3 based Fleet Oiler in Measure 32 camouflage, just like the John Steel illustration on the box of the old San Juan Capistrano, which was always a T2 tanker. Sorry Revell, but I own this kit box top. I've identified the following scratch items so far: Forecastle anchor capstan which is a half relief mold in the deck of the kit. Walkways. Engine room skylight. Bridge front all decks, with camber. It'd be nice to make two of each, in order to ammortize the effort a little. And it relieves me to stay true to prototype on the T2 Mission Carmel, and pursue the very interesting AO build later. One last thing- the drawings show a pronounced rake to the masts on the T2, but it's hard to see in photos. Was that rebuilt to vertical? Next step- T3 drawings! This might take TWO more kits, but I'm good with a razor saw and BONDO!!!

So did you get hold of the deck guns and hatches yet for this build? I had gotten hold of some 5 inchers and 20mm guns (enough for 2 T2's)plus a few PE hatch sets and portals and hose reels. So when you get the templates resized are you going to have them available for those that want to redo the bridge and other areas? And does the plans have the deck hatch and hose reel layouts?

BTW the guns on the T2 kit actually scale out to 1/350 scale at the very least on the high end.

I am a U-Boat Capatain and my ship ID manuals are not the greatest, so could you guys help me out?

What the difference in a Small tanker, a T-2 Tanker and a T-3 Tanker?

Also, what is the differences in a Coastal Merchant, Small Merchant, C-2 Cargo, C-3 Cargo, Liberty Cargo Ship and Victory Cargo Ship? 

Any help would be appreciated as I go out on my 24th patrol tonight out of Brest...

Manny, a quick search on good ol' Wikipedia will get you the T2, C1, C2, Liberty, and the Victory. The coastals and "smalls" are just nondescript vessels of a general configuration. I couldn't find any reference to the T1.

A C1

C2:

Liberty:

Victory:

Seriously though, from a target solution aspect, the biggest difference could be in speed. A Liberty will be straining to get 11 knots, while a Victory and the rest can do 17 or more.

In my inconsequential Navy carreer  I had a course in Maneuvering Board which included torpedo solutions. I loved it. Of course nobody has launched torpedoes that way since WWI, if even then.  The torpedo becomes 'Own Ship' and you have to plot for zero CPA. (closest point of approach)

I had a bout of playing the Silent Hunter game. With a high degree of realism, it's a wonder those guys ever hit anything. Then it really chaps one when the darn things fail to explode!

I don't think Kretchmer himself was as successful as Manny here though.

Mikeym_us wrote:

bondoman wrote: The Revell model measures out, at the stated scale of 1/400, at 520 feet overall, which is pretty close to a T2. So a T3 would be an elongation of 30 feet at scale, or 0.90 inches. That can't be ignored. The next step in the next ship model project; there, I've declared it, would be a T3 based Fleet Oiler in Measure 32 camouflage, just like the John Steel illustration on the box of the old San Juan Capistrano, which was always a T2 tanker. I've identified the following scratch items so far: Forecastle anchor capstan which is a half relief mold in the deck of the kit. Walkways. Engine room skylight. Bridge front all decks, with camber. It'd be nice to make two of each, in order to ammortize the effort a little. And it relieves me to stay true to prototype on the T2 Mission Carmel, and pursue the very interesting AO build later. One last thing- the drawings show a pronounced rake to the masts on the T2, but it's hard to see in photos. Was that rebuilt to vertical? Next step- T3 drawings! This might take TWO more kits, but I'm good with a razor saw and BONDO!!! So did you get hold of the deck guns and hatches yet for this build? I had gotten hold of some 5 inchers and 20mm guns (enough for 2 T2's)plus a few PE hatch sets and portals and hose reels. So when you get the templates resized are you going to have them available for those that want to redo the bridge and other areas? And does the plans have the deck hatch and hose reel layouts? BTW the guns on the T2 kit actually scale out to 1/350 scale at the very least on the high end.

Yes the template will be available for the asking.

bondoman wrote:

Mikeym_us wrote:  bondoman wrote: The Revell model measures out, at the stated scale of 1/400, at 520 feet overall, which is pretty close to a T2. So a T3 would be an elongation of 30 feet at scale, or 0.90 inches. That can't be ignored. The next step in the next ship model project; there, I've declared it, would be a T3 based Fleet Oiler in Measure 32 camouflage, just like the John Steel illustration on the box of the old San Juan Capistrano, which was always a T2 tanker. I've identified the following scratch items so far: Forecastle anchor capstan which is a half relief mold in the deck of the kit. Walkways. Engine room skylight. Bridge front all decks, with camber. It'd be nice to make two of each, in order to ammortize the effort a little. And it relieves me to stay true to prototype on the T2 Mission Carmel, and pursue the very interesting AO build later. One last thing- the drawings show a pronounced rake to the masts on the T2, but it's hard to see in photos. Was that rebuilt to vertical? Next step- T3 drawings! This might take TWO more kits, but I'm good with a razor saw and BONDO!!! So did you get hold of the deck guns and hatches yet for this build? I had gotten hold of some 5 inchers and 20mm guns (enough for 2 T2's)plus a few PE hatch sets and portals and hose reels. So when you get the templates resized are you going to have them available for those that want to redo the bridge and other areas? And does the plans have the deck hatch and hose reel layouts? BTW the guns on the T2 kit actually scale out to 1/350 scale at the very least on the high end. I have not looked at the guns. Mine has a 5"/38 gun at the stern and a 3"/50 at the bow, so I need to figure that out. The 20s that came with the kit actually are pretty cute, and I've got some PE shield kicking around somewhere. Tank hatches are shown, no deck piping. Hose davits and liferaft racks, which need to be added. Yes the template will be available for the asking.

I was thinking along the line of Fire fighting hoses which would have been on the bulkheads near the hatches. I have the Toms Modelworks USN deck hatches set and will definitely be adding those along with the ladders. Wouldn't the 3"/50 have been replaced by that time with the 5"/38? And I believe that the gun tub would need to be changed out to reflect that type of gun. BTW life rings and "glass" for the engine room greenhouse would need to be added as well as for the bridge windows once you get those opened up.

Bondo a source of clear acetate sheets is a office supply store look for the packages of transparency sheets used for overhead projectors usually comes in a pack of 100 sheets.

It would be nice to get a close-up picture of an actual T-2's skylight, but this one gives an idea of what one should look like:

http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/files/engine_room_skylight_123.jpg

onyxman wrote:

It would be nice to get a close-up picture of an actual T-2's skylight, but this one gives an idea of what one should look like: http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/files/engine_room_skylight_123.jpg

http://www.steelnavy.com/T2%20700.htm

If you go to this list and click on the ships that have 'US Navy' indicated as operator, there are some good views of detail, camo patterns etc.

 Particularly:

Oklawaha, close up of stern with view of stack guys, (and outhouse, pre-EPA)

Anacostia, lot's of deck detail

Pamanset, Sebec, Tomahawk, Ponaganset, camo patterns

Also included, pictures of some classy 1940s dames!

These are all T-2s, so maybe you don't need those T-3 plans after all Bondo.

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/query.php?abfrage2=T2-SE-A2&typeofquery=Pictures

edited link

Wow again, Wow.

Oklawaha- Fred there's that paint again just around the rudder. That island in the background is Belvedere island, part of the town where I live. It's covered in mansions now. I can see Marinship from where I'm sitting (not in a mansion) across the water. You can be da*m sure when I finish these models, where I'm going to go photograph them! Look at the ridge at the stern. I'm looking at the Revell hull and it's not even close. Not sure what the fix will be.

Beautiful shot of the tug. As you know there's a whole fraternity of people who study and model tugs. There's not a straight line on her; camber, sheer, tumblehome it's all there! In my model railroading life these were a big deal. The Santa Fe ran tugs on the Bay until the 70's in car float operations. And speaking of which, a big old SP/ Northwestern Pacific passenger ferry coming/going from the Sausalito terminal in the near distance.

Tomahawk- that takes the ticket! Mt. Tamalpais in the background. I watched a beautiful sunset in that same sky today from the car driving home over the Richardson Bay bridge about a 1/2 mile astern of these two beauties. There's that hunkered down shipyard tug again, with the two masts.

Mission San Carlos- If you look above the prow of the Mission Solano #34 on the far shore there's a big white dairy barn, That is where my house is. Barn's gone, but it belonged to the land grant family that owned the whole Tiburon peninsula.

I've got something in my eye- just a minute.

I didn't pick up on some of these details until you mention them Bill. I half expect you to tell us one of those grande dames is your dear old grandma!

On the Mission San Carlos shot, look at that neat old truck, and painted on the bow is an elaborate portrait of somebody, looks like Abraham Lincoln.

I see what you mean about the "ridge" on the stern of the Oklawaha (what a name!) The stern is a lot sharper than the Revell hull.  I'd glue a strip of styrene vertically down the centerline, then fill with putty on both sides and fair it in. I did that on the bow of my Victory ship to make it sharper.

Like I said, this website is a goldmine. It loads kind of slowly, but when nothing is on TV I can browse through these old photos for hours.

Link to the whole gallery: http://www.us-maritime-commission.de/query.php

There is a section with ship profiles too.

edit. Hmm, that link doesn't seem to work. Here's the home page, scroll to the end and click on 'search'

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/

edited link 4-21-09

Well, my day job is in Information Technology, supporting operations of 5,000 computers around the country, but for my hobby, I would heckuva lot rather do some research with a book.  Until now.

 Fred and Bill, I have been looking at "Victory Ships and Tankers" by Sawyer and Mitchell as this thread progresses and looking at Fred's Merchant Marine website too.  The picture of Schuykill (earlier in this thread) with the stack amidships tickeled my fancy.  There is no reference to that in my book, but Schuykill is listed as one of eleven T2-SE-A1s that were given to the Navy and completed as Navy tankers or oilers.

So the following group will all have Navy designators, full weapons fits (5", 40mm & 20mm, and masts and booms for supporting alongside replenishment in WWII):
Suamico(AO 49), Tallulah (AO 50), Pecos(AO 65), Cache (AO67), Millicoma(AO 73), Saranac (AO 74),  Saugatuck (AO 75), Schuykill (AO 76), Cossatot (AO 77), Chepachet (AO 78) and Cowanesque (AO79).
Some may notice that Cowanesque and Cossatot are the two versions that Loose Cannon produces in their 1/700 T-2 Naval Tanker kit (http://home.earthlink.net/~loosecannonproductions/Kit12.html)

The above group are T2-SE-A1; the following navy tankers are T2-SE-A2:
Escambia(AO 80), Kennebago(AO 81), Lackawapan(AO 82), Mascoma(AO 83), Ocklawaha (AO 84), Pamanset (AO 85), Ponaganset (AO 86), Sebec (AO 87), Tomahawk AO 88), Pasig, ex-Mission San Xavier (AO 91), Ataban, ex-Mission San Lorenzo (AO 92), Soubarissen, ex-Mission Santa Ana (I) (AO 93), Anacostia, ex-Mission Alamo (AO 94), Caney, ex-Mission Los Angeles (I) (AO95), Tamalpais, ex-Mission San Francisco (I) (AO 96)

Though, just to complicate things, the AO 91 and AO 92 were converted to water carriers AW 3 Pasig and AW 4 Ataban, per Navsource, and I can't find them listed on the Merchant Marine site at all.

At any rate, the Merchant Marine Shipbuilding website that Fred provided gives great photos of these ships with their naval details and camouflage schemes.  It is a good way to identify the ones to expect to find in naval service.

btw, I hadn't realized that the only difference from the T2-SE-A1 (including the group named above) and the T2-SE-A2 (mostly with the "Mission"  prefix) was the powerplant.  The A1 was rated at 6,000 shaft hp for 14.5-15kts and the A2 at 10,000 hp for 16 kts.  Both had the same dimensions and the same boilers and similar machinery.  There was a single A3 completed - Cohocton, also with 10,000shp.

Rick
(This material was explored and edited in several passes before posting, and the story got a bit too complicated, with conflicting and incomplete data from navsource and the others.  I decided to stop while I was ahead)

onyxman wrote:

It would be nice to get a close-up picture of an actual T-2's skylight, but this one gives an idea of what one should look like: http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/files/engine_room_skylight_123.jpg

I was thinking is it possible that there were 3 hatches each on each side of the "greenhouse" with 4 portholes each hatch? If that picture showing the 1/700 scale resin T2 tanker is accurate you could probably recreate this with clear acetate sheets by masking the "portholes" and painting the sheet the hull color. Of course since the T2 was a wartime tanker and thus had to abide with the blackout doctrine then shouldn't the portholes have covers for foul weather and "Blackout" like the rest of the portholes on the ship?

You almost have it exactly Mikeym. This link to the USS Kankakee has quite a few pictures, but 8 or 9 down is a beautiful overhead close up of the skylight. Four hatches on each side, with four portholes each, but the portholes look like they are painted over.  They are hinged in the middle and can be propped up to allow ventilation.

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A0146b

edited link 4-21-09

onyxman wrote:

You almost have it exactly Mikeym. This link to the USS Kankakee has quite a few pictures, but 8 or 9 down is a beautiful overhead close up of the skylight. Four hatches on each side, with four portholes each, but the portholes look like they are painted over.  They are hinged in the middle and can be propped up to allow ventilation. http://www.us-maritime-commission.de/pictures.php?code=A0146b

If you look at the portholes again they are proud of the hatches which means possibly they might be the metal "Blackout" covers because the glass portions can be opened from the inside for ventilation in conditions where it would be less than ideal to have the "greenhouse" hatches opened. Wouldn't want those hatches open in heavy seas.

First of all to Mike.. post of noon yesterday, I have one "general arrangement drawing" that shows much less detail than is cast on the deck of the Revell kit, (hereafter in this post identified as "The Kit".)

As an example: no pipes. Otherwise no good details.

Edit: my favorite so far, I'd dance a Charleston with this gorgeous lady any time. And there's a 3" gun forward. Need to find one. I have two extra 5"/38's from my USS San Francisco model. but they are 1/350. Need to find a 3" gun.

http://www.us-maritime-commission.de/pictures.php?code=A1272a

bondoman wrote:

First of all to Mike.. post of noon yesterday, I have one "general arrangement drawing" that shows much less detail than is cast on the deck of the Revell kit, (hereafter in this post identified as "The Kit".) As an example: no pipes. Otherwise no good details. Edit: my favorite so far, I'd dance a Charleston with this gorgeous lady any time. And there's a 3" gun forward. Need to find one. I have two extra 5"/38's from my USS San Francisco model. but they are 1/350. Need to find a 3" gun. http://www.us-maritime-commission.de/pictures.php?code=A1272a

As far as I know only Yankee Modelworks has the 3"/50's in single mount  but you'll still have to find a gun tub for it as the 3"/50 tubs are smaller than the 5"/38 tubs and I have never really seen any pics of a 3"/50 gun tub so I have no idea what it looks like. As for your railing there are 2 sections port and starboard that will have to have the rails droop since that is where the gangplanks go when in port and are actually chain instead of cables. Hopefully you'll let us know when you get to the booms and hoses since I would really like to know when I get mine started. Oh yeah L'Arsenal has some of the oval USN rafts that your probably looking for.

I continue to be amused by these old pictures. I wonder why Mission San Diego is trimmed 'down by the head'?

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A1814a

Edited-4-21-09

Mansteins revenge wrote:

I sank a troop ship tonight that was in a convoy...man, what a sad sight to see...all those guys in the water...

Did'ja machinegun em'? (They aren't real, for all of you guys that think I'm a murderous fiend)

subfixer wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote: I sank a troop ship tonight that was in a convoy...man, what a sad sight to see...all those guys in the water... Did'ja machinegun em'? (They aren't real, for all of you guys that think I'm a murderous fiend)

By the way, what ships were typically pressed into service for troop ships, besides the obvious passenger liners?

In later years of the war, C4-S-A1 ships were built as troopships. Victory ships were also used.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/22/22143.htm

Ships with the P-2 designation were also troopers, but they basically look like passenger ships.

Tragedy!  It looks like that US Maritime Commission shipbuilding website might have closed!

Fred

Oh dog poopoo! I don't think those pics downloaded, but I sure miss the access. Let's just hope they find another host.