Bismarck

   Dear Bryan01:   I can understand the sensitivities of Europeans to Nazi symbolism, as in your country, Holland, which suffered greatly from German occupation during World War II. But, the model of the Bismarck, with the painted swastika, is only a model that requires accurate representation. This model does not in any way indorse extreme nationalism, militarism, bruality and total control of all political, cultural and economic activity of a subjucated people by National Socialism. If the display of symbols were to be taken to a serious extreme, then the flags of all nations would be banned from models. There is not a nation on this green earth that has not one time in its history committed shameful acts against other human beings. This is a sad fact of this world. Model making is a pleasant form of escapism from the cares and worries of this planet. I would hope this activity is not burdened by negative symbolism.

           Montani semper liberi !  Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                           Crackers     

Hi Crackers, I'm afraid you fail to see my point (or, despite my long post, I failed to convey the message).

You probably think that everyone sees the swastika (and other Nazi symbolism) as an evil thing. You probably think that everyone associates it with war, extermination camps, blitzkrieg, terror bombing, occupation, persecution and anything else negative about it you can think of. And you're right, fortunately most people do.

So you therefore probably also think that everyone who sees a model of the Bismarck, complete with swastika's and flags will say: "Hey, that's a mighty fine looking model, beautiful ship, only too bad it fought on the wrong side. Well, at least we sunk it after they put up a good fight. But we won!"

Wrong, in Germany, Austria and other countries large groups of people still have quite  positive associations with swastika's and such. For them it stands for economic prosperity, feeling superior, culture, order, being part of something. When they see a model of the Bismarck they would probably (want to) say: "Hey, that's a mighty fine looking model, beautiful ship, only to bad we lost it, should've build more of those! Yep, those were the days, too bad about the Jews but hey, something had to be done about them, they would've brought the Reich down to its knees just like the first time. Yeah, we were a great nation but those @#$% Americans, Brits, French and Russians took that away from us.....again!" (I once met a German who actually told me this).

Quite a few political organizations are very well aware of the fact that those kind of sentiments still linger around in the minds of some people and they would sure like to use the old symbols to gather more support for their cause (whatever that may be).

The German government is obviously also very much aware of this and that's the reason why they put a strict ban on the use of these symbols by such organizations. Remember, in Germany and other European countries a party doesn't has to have an elected majority to end up in government (the NSDAP had only 43.9% in 1933).

If this ban at the same time has the consequence that you're not allowed to publicly show your historically correct Bismarck....well, too bad. It's only a small price to pay in order to prevent something much worse from happening.

I hope you understand now that the whole topic has nothing to do with the sensitivity of Europeans (or me personally as a Dutchman), that's a completely different subject. It also has nothing to do with what the Nazi's did to the peoples of other nations and trying to hide from it (they don't).

It has to do with what the Germans did to themselves!

I'm afraid that I do understand bryan01's point.  We in the United States have recently undergone the controversy over the use of the Confederate States flag in several southern state flags.  For many Southerners (including myself), that flag stands for much more than racism and slavery; it stands for a particular interpretation of the Constitution of the United States in which the individual states possessed rights not owned by the Federal Government.  It stood for Southern culture that no longer exists.  For African-Americans, it stands for none of those things; it stands for slavery and American terrorism.  I do understand their not wanting any government within the United States to glorify such things.

But, a painting or diorama depicting any Civil War battle would look silly without the Confederate battle flag! Similarly, those German vehicles on which the swastika was depicted look silly without it. It simply looks empty and it looks like we are trying to bury our heads to the dirtier points of history.

If we bury that history, then those groups spoken of so eloquently by bryan01 will have room to flourish. I hope that never happens!

Bill Morrison

I too, understand where Bryan1 is coming from, having lived in Germany for eight years, including a couple years after the wall came down.... Nazism really IS just lurking beneath the surface for a LOT of Germans, and these ideas and these people pop up in the strangest places, people who, just to look at them, you would NEVER guess still harbored those kind of thoughts.  And that is why the Germans have a lot of laws dealing with the use of just about any sort of Nazi symbolism, as they are afraid that if they leave that door open, even just a crack, it won't be long before some jackboot kicks it open the rest of the way.... Luckily, I live in the US now, and such restrictions regarding Nazi symbols are not as necessary (though we DO have our OWN issues about the old Confederacy and IT'S symbols... I note that the Governor of Texas actually brought up the subject of possible secession again, although that expression has not been used in a modern context since 1865!).  I also note that, although it is illegal to use any sort of Nazi symbolism in Germany, the Germans themselves are REALLY into 'clubs' of one sort or another, one of which (strangely!) is a quite large number that like to do Civil War reenactments... US Civil War reenactments, and they have a hard time finding enough people to represent the 'Union' forces!

Another thing that we should remember in this thread . . . the Kriegsmarine was acquited at Nuremburg as having fought an honorable war.  Only one officer was brought to trial for having committed war crimes (Helmuth von Ruckteschell of the AMC Widder). He died in prison during the trial. Admirals Raeder and Doenitz were charged and convicted of having conspired to wage war, not committing war crimes.  Indeed, both Raeder and Doenitz fought the politicization (sp?) of their service, even to the point of continuing to allow Jewish officers to serve unmolested.

In other words, the swastika emblem carried by German warships was not an ideological symbol but rather a national mark of identification.  It may be a fine point but I believe it is a profound one. The Kriegsmarine was not an instrument used to foster the spread of NAZIism, but rather was an instrument of national policy.

I sincerely hope that my meaning is clear. If my argument offends anyone, I apologize!

Bill Morrison

Good post Bill, your meaning is clear and not offending at all. A few points however:

Although Erich Raeder wasn't very fond of the Nazi party he was however a strong supporter of the build up of the German navy (which was a breach of the Versailles Treaty). He was found guilty of waging a war of aggression.

Karl Doenitz on the other hand was very supportive of Hitler, anti-Semitism and Nazi ideology.

Quote by Doenitz:

"What would have become of our country today if the Fuehrer had not united us under National Socialism? Split by parties, beset with the spreading poison of Jewry and vulnerable to it, because we lacked the defense of our present uncompromising ideology, we would long since have succumbed under the burden of this war, and delivered ourselves up to the enemy who would have mercilessly destroyed us."

He was also found guilty of waging a war of aggression and of crimes against laws of war.

It is true the Kriegsmarine is generally considered to have fought an honorable war. One can of course argue if it is even possible to commit crimes against humanity on a large scale at sea. Other than unrestricted U-boat warfare and shore bombardments the actions of a navy are mostly limited to fighting other warships. After all, in wartime the seas are generally devoid of innocent civilians.

It could however have turned out rather different if unarmed passenger liners or hospital ships would've been sunk on a large scale or if surface ships would've been used to shell populated seaside areas. This however didn't happen.

About your statement "...Raeder and Doenitz ...continuing to allow Jewish officers to serve unmolested."

Although seemingly correct I'm afraid it is a little bit more complicated. I assume you refer to "Jews" like Bernhard Rogge and Paul Asher!? According to the Nuremberg Laws of 1935 they were classified as Mishlinge (half-breeds) and not "real" Jews since only two or less of their grandparents were Jewish. Neither the people involved nor the state saw them as Jews as they didn't practice the Jewish religion nor did they have a Jewish lifestyle. Both of these men received a Deutschblütigkeitserklärung (German Blood Certificate) signed by Hitler personally.

It is therefore not fair to recognize Raeder and Doenitz as "saviors" like Oscar Shindler and Raoul Wallenberg.

 

bryan01,

I in no way intended to classify Raeder and Doenitz as saviors!  They willingly served an evil government and prospered in that government.  They were honorable men who served that evil honorably.

However, there are ways in which naval warfare can be conducted inhumanely, such as the wilful murder or abandonment of shipwreck survivors, starvation and physical abuse of prisoners, etc.  At first, the Germans generally did what they could to help survivors of ships their U-Boats had torpedoed; they stopped such efforts when the Allies would continue attacking them. My understanding is that both Raeder and Doenitz issued orders to conduct war humanely.

If my memory serves correctly, in one famous incident involving the accidental torpedoing of a Spanish passenger ship, two U-Boats surfaced, flew the Red Cross flag, and radioed all Allied ships in the vicinity to assist in rescue operations; the Allies attacked both U-Boats instead, leaving many possible survivors to drown.

Doenitz was convicted by virtue of his building the U-Boat fleet and waging unrestricted submarine warfare. American Admiral Nimitz wanted to testify in his defense at Nuremburg that the Americans used the same tactics but Nimitz was denied permission.

Bill Morrison

A swastika was used on German ships operating on the Baltic as a means of recognition. Once operations took a ship out of the baltic, the swastika was painted over. If you bring it to a show, you would want to display it with a swastika as it would be historically correct. In a contest it would be demerited. Other places, you could make white disc to cover it with, and simply place it over the swastika, and that way you can ask the veiwer if it offends or not and remove it for "adult" veiwing. Please forgive the spelling. It is too bad that a simple good luck charm has been endowed with such power that the Germans have made it illegal! I know that this is a sticky situation, it was not the swastika that commited such atrocities. Suppose Adolph and the boys deceided that a four leaf clover rampant on a feild of crimson would make a really nifty flag?  

thank you for all comments and history you all have made.  boy i do learn a lot about the history of germany and the swastika, even tho im ww2 history bluff but still kept on learning and learning. 

to be honest i do have two of the southern rebel flag hanging up in my room but never show in public, since i live in north state (NY).   most of my friends has come and see it  doesnt really bother them.  they tend to ask me why i do have it i just told them is cuz i like the way it looks not what they mean.  as for swaskita, the only thing i would show is on model which i have now have no problem with it.  as for bismarck,  i just want to make the ship that looks on the day she was in atlantic ocean before she sunk.  if i happens to have other bismarck which i might will, i prolly will make it as she was during in the baltic sea before she took off to open water. 

Kronos-Doomsday,  i like the idea of cut up white disc to cover it up and remove it. 

To echo serat12's apolitical logic, when Bismarck sortied the icon was overpainted so as not to invite a visit from coastal air patrol. Remarkably when Robert Ballard photo'd her decks the grey overcoat had decayed, leaving a ghost swastika looming again into view.