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RoG Bismarck, Pray for me!

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  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:49 AM
I have never understood the fascination with ships that had such a short and unremarkable service life--IMO, like the Bismarck...the cost of the ship compared to the damage (or lack thereoff) it inflicted was ridiculous...but, good luck !!! 
  • Member since
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  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:18 PM
I think The bismarck has alot of history behind it. at the time it was an engineering marvel. it sank the flag ship fo the royal navy in 7 minutes. it's size and fire power were something that the allied forces realized needed to be destroyed as soon as possible. I don't think that there was more effort put into sinking one ship throughout the war.  i think that is what makes it remarkable. but that's just my My 2 cents [2c]
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
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Posted by eatthis on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:24 PM

 enemeink wrote:
I think The bismarck has alot of history behind it. at the time it was an engineering marvel. it sank the flag ship fo the royal navy in 7 minutes. it's size and fire power were something that the allied forces realized needed to be destroyed as soon as possible. I don't think that there was more effort put into sinking one ship throughout the war.  i think that is what makes it remarkable. but that's just my My 2 cents [2c]

 

agreed although it was a very lucky hit that killed hood it was still an immense piece of engineering

 

snow + 4wd + escessive hp = :)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7egUIS70YM

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:34 PM

 enemeink wrote:
I think The bismarck has alot of history behind it. at the time it was an engineering marvel. it sank the flag ship fo the royal navy in 7 minutes. it's size and fire power were something that the allied forces realized needed to be destroyed as soon as possible. I don't think that there was more effort put into sinking one ship throughout the war.  i think that is what makes it remarkable. but that's just my My 2 cents [2c]
Disagree...the Hood was WW I technology, which only had symbolic value to the British fleet...there is even credible evidence that the Bismarck didn't even fire the shell that sank the Hood...It was a nice-looking ship that was state of the art, but it was not really unique in that it was ahead of its time...

...the only claim to fame I'd give her was the story of her sinking that has become legend, only because the Brits propagandized it to the hilt...after all, it could be considereed Germany's first defeat, on land, in the air or on water...it was a white elephant that the Germans could never possibly use as it was intended, just like the Tirpitz...

...hmmmmm, I think more effort went into sinking the Yamato...

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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:38 PM

Manny wrote,

"I have never understood the fascination with ships that had such a short and unremarkable service life--IMO, like the Bismarck...the cost of the ship compared to the damage (or lack thereoff) it inflicted was ridiculous...but, good luck !!!"

Simply stated, Bismarck and Tirpitz were very beautiful ships.  That said, how many warships can lay claim to actually sinking another ship?  Very few.  Neither Yamato or Musashi did; no other Japanese, Italian, French, or Soviet battleships did, nor did very many American or British battleships.  Yet, they have their devotees!

Bismarck sank Hood.  It took a fleet a week to track down and sink Bismarck.  It is a compelling story.

Bill Morrison  

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Posted by ddp59 on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:42 PM
enemeink, i think there was more effort to sink the tirpitz then there was to sink the bismarck. you had x subs & various types of aircraft for a couple of years trying to sink her. it was finally lancasters with 12,000 lb tallboy bombs that finally sank her.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:47 PM

 ddp59 wrote:
enemeink, i think there was more effort to sink the tirpitz then there was to sink the bismarck. you had x subs & various types of aircraft for a couple of years trying to sink her. it was finally lancasters with 12,000 lb tallboy bombs that finally sank her.

DITTO, and as I stated before, there is strong evidence that Bismarck DID NOT sink Hood, but rather the Heavy Cruiser Prinz Eugen did...

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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:47 PM

My understanding is that Prinz Eugen's gunfire hit Hood, starting a bad fire on the boat deck. It was Bismarck's fire that penetrated to the magazines, blowing up the ship.  But, I am open to hearing contrary evidence.

Bill Morrison

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  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:03 PM

 ddp59 wrote:
enemeink, i think there was more effort to sink the tirpitz then there was to sink the bismarck. you had x subs & various types of aircraft for a couple of years trying to sink her. it was finally lancasters with 12,000 lb tallboy bombs that finally sank her.

yeah but that effort was spread out over a couple of years and not 3 days. again it's just my opinion on the matter.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:25 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

My understanding is that Prinz Eugen's gunfire hit Hood, starting a bad fire on the boat deck. It was Bismarck's fire that penetrated to the magazines, blowing up the ship.  But, I am open to hearing contrary evidence.

Bill Morrison

If we assume that your version is fact, then I'd call it a shared "kill"...Maybe the myth of the Prinz Eugen should be inflated to match the Bismarck's?

I'm not anti-Bismarck; just feel that the ship is over-rated...Of course, the fact that Germany only built 2 modern battleships for WW2 probably has a lot to do with it as well...I mean, there isn't a lot of German subject matter, so by default the ship has to be popular...

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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:33 PM

Every creditable reference that I have read credits Bismarck with the kill.  I read some supposition that it may have been Prinz Eugen but never any real evidence.  For my money, Bismarck sank the Hood, making her one of the few capital ships to ever sink another.

But, I was simply addressing Manny's comment that he couldn't understand the fascination with ships that seem to have accomplished nothing. I explained my interest.  Bismarck did achieve the distinction of sinking Hood, whether or not assisted by Prinz Eugen.  I am also interested in Prinz Eugen and relish the prospect of a model of her in 1/350 scale!  Every manufacturer has done Bismarck (RoG's kit is far better than any other), but none have attempted PE in 1/350 scale.

I would also be interested in Conte di Cavour, Giulio Casare, Littorio, Queen Elizabeth, etc., although they did not achieve Bismarck's distinction.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:04 PM

Blah, blah, blah.. The story of the Bismarck is one for the ages, and for this reason alone, the ship is of interest.  Yes, in many ways, it was a 'update' of the old 'Baden' design.  So what?  The old 'Queen Elizabeths' were still around, so why not build a ship to beat them?  Certainly, the HMS Hood, as the Flagship of the British Navy, was certainly a 'scalp' to be proud of, and with a bit more effort (one which I have never understood why it was not followed up), could have been equaled by the scalp of the most modern battleship in the British fleet (POW).  In any case, the whole saga of the distruction of the Hood, and chase of the Bismarck, and perhaps more importantly, the fear engendered which was transferred to the Tirpitz (which never deserved it!), is more than enough to make Bismarck a model industry 'standard.'

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:05 PM
 searat12 wrote:

...the fear engendered which was transferred to the Tirpitz (which never deserved it!)...

Blah, blah, blah...I agree...and where did the great "fear" of the Bismarck come from? oooooooooooooh (in a scary, ghost-sounding tone)...Seems it was unfounded...I mean, it was sunk on its maiden voyage!

It was a British propaganda coup when it was needed the most...I mean, did anyone with ANY real sense of warfare believe the Germans were going to dominate the Atlantic with one surface ship, even if it was the Bismarck!?!...until then the Germans had been handing the Brits their collective arse on a silver platter...when they finally scored a clear victory, they made the most of it by trumping up the dangers of a lone SUPER-UBER-battleship roaming in the open ocean... 

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 7:34 AM

I think that I am now confused . . . are we discussing the actual historical importance of the Bismarck, or why modelers are attracted to that ship?  They are two different issues!

On the one hand, Bismarck is simply a beautiful ship that has gained historical or mythological interests.  On the other hand, Bismarck accomplished more on her maiden voyage  that most other battleships ever did in 20+ year careers. She sank another capital ship.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:02 AM

I think the two are intertwined...historical interest is usually involved in choosing subject matter...

...the interesting thing about battleships in general is that that were husbaned like no other ship after WWI...everyone was reluctant to allow them to be engaged with opposing surface fleets throughout the war--that's why those actions were so rare...Yes, there were the late-war Japanese suicide missions that involved obsolete BB's and the infamous Yamato operation, but that's another story...

It wasn't that the Bismarck was such a superior design -IMO- or neccessarily more "dangerous" than other BB's, it was that it happened to be caught with its "pants down" by an opposing surface fleet (which is was ordered to avoid at all costs) and hammered to the ocean floor...if you think about it, the sortie was rathy foolish...there was no way a German surface task force was going to roam the Atlantic in 1941 raiding merchant ships and not eventually be forced to fight a surface action that was almost certainly going to be superior in numbers and with air support...

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Posted by Surface_Line on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:20 AM

quote:

...there was no way a German surface task force was going to roam the Atlantic in 1941 raiding merchant ships and not eventually be forced to fight a surface action that was almost certainly going to be superior in numbers and with air support...

 


 That sounds very logical from here, doesn't it?  But take a look at what the two battlecruisers and the three pocket battleships had accomplished, convoy-raiding wise, by 1941. Graf Spee was the only one at that time that had met those surface forces.

I believe you're judging people in history in the light of the outcome you know.  By the same token, it was silly for the Germans to start the war in 1939, because you know they would lose miserably by 1945.  And same thing goes for Japan - it is obvious to us now that they could not sustain a war and win it.  But if you look from 1941 or 1942 eyes, things were not nearly so certain. 

 And indeed, as discussed on another historical discussion thread on this same modeling forum, the Battle of the Atlantic was very close to being decisive with the opposite results.  At the time, things were much closer than they appear from 2009.  "IF one more Russian convoy was lost, and IF the Russians had not held out, believing the were supported by  the other allies, or IF a few more convoys from USA to Great Britain had been damaged badly..."  The outcome could have gone the other way, even though the USA had enough manufacturing capability to ultimately win things a few years later.  By the same token, IF the Bismarck had gotten into the Atlantic and encountered a large convoy or two with nothing except old destroyers and corvettes, or even an old "R" class battleship, against the backdrop of conditions in May 1941, the pendulum could have swung too far against the Allies at that time.

IF

 Enjoy your Bismarck model.

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:33 AM

Don't forget the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had just completed their rather successful cruise in March, 1941.  The original plan for Operation Rheinubung was for Bismarck and Tirpitz to cruise together against the convoys.  Tirpitz was not ready in time; Prinz Eugen was substituted instead.

Following the engagement between HOOD and PoW, and the BISMARCK and PE, the BISMARCK was damaged and taking water in her bows. She also lost fuel oil, meaning that she had to return to port. Admiral Lutgens decided to head for Brest, where she could link up with SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU.  His reasoning made some sense, although, in retrospect, he should have headed back to Germany instead.  In a masterful demonstration of planning and maneuvering available resources, the British succeeded in damaging Bismarck's rudders and/or propellors, rendering her unmaneuverable.  KGV, RODNEY, and DORSETSHIRE did the rest.  We all know the story.

Now, it is important to remember, BISMARCK SANK THE HOOD!!!  The only other battleship that sank another in the Atlantic during WWII was when DUKE of YORK sank SCHARNHORST.  Both are therefore very noteworthy events.  The importance of the Bismarck episode is that it marked the turn in the surface war in the Atlantic.  No German surface warship ever again ventured out into the Atlantic Ocean. She is worthy of building for that reason alone.

However, I love her lines! BISMARCK is a beautiful ship!

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:39 AM
 warshipguy wrote:

Don't forget the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had just completed their rather successful cruise in March, 1941

However, I love her lines! BISMARCK is a beautiful ship!

The sortie that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau made was actually below expectations, based on my refs, especially when you look at it from a cost to benefits ratio...they were no more successful than had they been U-boats...

As far as the Bismarck being eye-candy to a sailor---no dispute there...

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:02 PM

I agree that more was expected of Scharnhorst and Gnesenau in March, 1941.  But, it was the most successful foray of the guerre d'course to that date.  It did offer the potential of better results given the power of both the Bismarck and Tirpitz.  Therein lies the importance of the Bismarck episode . . . the British succeeded in exploding that potential.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by searat12 on Thursday, May 21, 2009 9:02 PM

Whoa!  I think everyone is getting rather more 'wound up' about this than is strictly necessary!  Manny has raised some significant points, some of which I happen to agree with.  However, there are OTHER points which I think Manny may either not know of, or has not mentioned.

 YES, Bismarck was NOT the 'world-beating' battleship that it has often been described as.  In fact, in many ways it was an 'old-fashioned' design harking back to the 'Baden' of WW1.  HOWEVER, it WAS a real threat to be reckoned with, and certainly more than a match for any operational British warship at the time.  Perhaps the greatest legacy of the Bismarck is not so much what it actually accomplished, but what EFFECT it had on the British and other allied navies of the time.  The news of its advent into the Atlantic caused multiple squadrons to be mobilized to counter it.  Aircraft carriers, battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, you name it, ALL were mobilized and directed against this SINGLE ship!!!  The entire Atlantic supply system was in shambles!!  The same thing happened with the Tirpitz, when only the RUMOR of it putting to sea would cause all convoys to be re-routed, battle-squadrons assembled, etc.  In other words, the THREAT of what these ships MIGHT do, was enough to cause the allies to jump through innumerable hoops to try to address these 'possible' scenarios.  This is the effect of the 'fleet in being,' and regardless of whether the threat actually 'lives up to' its menace, it certainly has a VERY significant impact on subsequent operations in a manner far outside 'reality.'  And in this respect, both Bismarck AND Tirpitz were of immense benefit to the Germans during the war (and besides, it IS a very pleasing aesthetic design, even YOU must admit Manny!).

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Friday, May 22, 2009 12:30 PM
Surface_Line,
While I agree with your "hindsight" point, I find the assessment of Manstein's Revenge to be right on point. The Bismark/Turpitz were a pure waste of money. It seems ironic that as "far thinking" as the Germans were, and throwing in their alliance with the Japanese, why on earth did they not seek to develop/build more aircraft carriers?
Perhaps they suffered the same plight as the U.S. Navy did and were enraptured with the thought of the "glamour and prestige" still surrounding the classic battleship.
Look at the outright vilification of Billy Mitchell, having the gall to suggest that a little ol' aeroplane could sink a mighty battleship.
The day the Wright brothers took to the air, all surface warfare vehicles, be they land or sea based, became secondary in importance. Control of the air has been the foremost consideration ever since.
Not intending to insult anyone's love of ships, because I too agree that Bismark/Turpitz, as well as Missouri are beautiful. But we have seen it develop for the past 50 years. The two most important ships in the fleet are now the aircraft carrier and the ballistic missile nuclear submarine
Anyhow, enjoy you build, rabbiteatsnake.
Regards, PWB.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 22, 2009 1:41 PM

Actually, the idea that battleships were husbaned after WWI is misleading.  For example, the Germans used their battleships/battlecruisers/armored ships fairly actively up to the Bismarck episode, and even to December, 1943 with the loss of Scharnhorst. The Italians regularly put battleships to sea, although they were loath to fight. The French battleships engaged in surface sweeps against German Armored Ships and fought the British and Americans from their African bases. The Americans actively used their battleships in many settings throughout the war, engaging in ship-to-ship surface engagements, as carrier escorts and AA platforms, and in shore bombardment. Similarly, the British used their battleships extensively and aggressively throughout the war in all oceans.

Only the Japanese kept their battleships in reserve and away from the action.  Even so, their Kongo class was used extensively.

In other words, battleships were used to a much greater extent in WWII than in WWI and were quite effective in their many roles.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 22, 2009 6:43 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Actually, the idea that battleships were husbaned after WWI is misleading.  For example, the Germans used their battleships/battlecruisers/armored ships fairly actively up to the Bismarck episode, and even to December, 1943 with the loss of Scharnhorst. The Italians regularly put battleships to sea, although they were loath to fight. The French battleships engaged in surface sweeps against German Armored Ships and fought the British and Americans from their African bases. The Americans actively used their battleships in many settings throughout the war, engaging in ship-to-ship surface engagements, as carrier escorts and AA platforms, and in shore bombardment. Similarly, the British used their battleships extensively and aggressively throughout the war in all oceans.

Only the Japanese kept their battleships in reserve and away from the action.  Even so, their Kongo class was used extensively.

In other words, battleships were used to a much greater extent in WWII than in WWI and were quite effective in their many roles.

Bill Morrison

Disagree strongly...you cite that they were used as AA platforms, shore bombardment, carrier escorts---true (mostly by the Americans and Brits)...but as far as seeking surface engagements with other BB's, almost always this was avoided...

The fact of the matter is that BB's were so costly and took so long to build that any losses to most nation's fleets was catastrophic and could not be replaced...you admitted that the Italians avoided fights, so did the Germans in most cases (altough technically the ships you referred to were not BB's)...In fact, Raeder was sacked after he failed to be agressive enough...when the French fought it was only when they were cornered, and many of their ships were destroyed in port because they refused to sortie to sea...I just don't think you made a very convincing argument...   

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Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 22, 2009 7:42 PM

Manny,

I believe that I referred to German battleships/battlecruisers/armored ships, not just battleships. And, even the most cursory review of capital ship involvement in WWII shows that they were far more engaged than in WWI.

British and American capital ships participated as convoy escorts, AA platforms, carrier escorts, in shore bombardment, and against surface warships. HMS Renown engaged Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in the Norwegian campaign, HMS Warspite devastated German destroyers in the Norwegian fjiords. HMS Hood and Dunkerque hunted for Graf Spee.  USS Massachusetts engaged Jean Bart in a gunnery duel, putting her out of action. Countless older British and American battleships served as convoy escorts, even during the U-Boat "Happy Days".  HMS Renown, Warspite, Barham, Queen Elizabeth, and Valiant actively fought against Italian surface ships in the Mediterranean. USS South Dakota and Kirishima fought; Kirishima and USS Washington fought.  Surigao Strait saw American battleships fight Yamashiro, Fuso having been sunk by destroyers earlier. HMS Hood was sunk by Bismarck; Bismarck was sunk by HMS King George V and HMS Rodney.  And, I am just scratching the surface; American and British capital ships fought in virtually every major naval engagement of WWII. Of this there can be no doubt.  In WWI, they mostly sat at anchor.

German capital ships were engaged from September 1939 and remained very active through May of 1941. Granted, they were not supposed to engage warships due to their limited numbers, but clashes did occur. Graf Spee, Deuchland, and Admiral Scheer each engaged in commerce raiding. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau participated in the Norwegian campaign, sinking HMS Glorious (a CV) and fighting with HMS Renown. They also actively participated in commerce raiding, culminating in their successful cruise of March 1941. Following the loss of Bismarck in May 1941, German capital ships were less active, with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau being continuously damaged in Brest. But, Tirpitz was positioned in Norway to operate against the Murmansk convoys. After the channel dash, Scharnhorst joined Tirpitz and Lutzow in Norway. Lutzow participated in the Battle of the Barents Sea (a fiasco for the Germans) and Scharnhorst was sunk by HMS Duke of York in December, 1943, ending active German capital ship activities against the convoys.  In WWI, they mostly sat at anchor.

Again, French capital ships sailed against Graf Spee, Deuchland, and Admiral Scheer.  They engaged British and American battleships.

The Japanese Kongo's were heavily engaged against American forces, Kirishima being so heavily damaged by Washington that she later sank.  Unquestionably, the other Japanese battleships remained in reserve.

The Italian battleships avoided action but sailed on numerous sorties.

I really fail to see how capital ships were less active in WWII than in WWI. Far from avoiding conflict, they actively fought throughout the war.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 22, 2009 8:02 PM
Again, they WERE used for many things, but rarely were they committed against other BB's...and you should re-read my statement. I wrote that after WWI (Jutland) BB's were husbaned...I did not write that BB's were less active in WWII than WWI...
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Posted by subfixer on Friday, May 22, 2009 8:26 PM
Battleships had a big role as playing part in a concept known as "fleets in being". Where a navy's capital ships, just by staying in port and posing an active threat, could be a part of sea denial (although not sea control) to an area in its vicinity. The attacks on the massed fleets in Taranto and Pearl Harbor made this an unsafe option in later years.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by Pavlvs on Friday, May 22, 2009 11:29 PM
I think the eye-candy argument is the most compelling to build a great model of her!

Deus in minutiae est. Fr. Pavlvs

On the Bench: 1:200 Titanic; 1:16 CSA Parrott rifle and Limber

On Deck: 1/200 Arizona.

Recently Completed: 1/72 Gato (as USS Silversides)

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Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:51 AM
The Fleet in being concept was a valuable one for the Germans, they didn't even have to weigh anchor to pose a threat.

Much of the Home Fleet was tied up on a 'just in case' basis for much of the war, whilst more useful purposes for the RN fleets could not, or would not be executed.

Atlantic convoy traffic for example, could have done with much more support, but whilst the K.M. capital ships were sitting in Norway, the RN couldn't redirect those heavy units of the Home Fleet for convoy escort work, and neither could the shipbuilding industry construct more destroyers and other escort vessels whilst the yards were tied up with KGV Class construction.

The effects of a 'Fleet in being' go way beyond the frontline.

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Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:14 AM

Manny,

If I misread your comment that after WWI battleships were husbaned as meaning that they were husbaned after Jutland, I agree that that was so during WWI. I apologize for the misreading.

As for anyone actually believing that the Kriegsmarine surface force could dominate the Atlantic, even Admiral Raeder scoffed at that idea.  He said that, with the war beginning in September 1939, all the Kriegsmarine could do was to show how to die gloriously. The Bismarck hit the Royal Navy hard by sinking Hood but died gloriously.

But to answer your original question concerning building a model of Bismarck, the story is compelling, the propaganda effort has made her famous even today, and she was a very beautiful ship.  I believe that Revell of Europe has done her justice.

However, I also think that there are more than enough models on the market of both Bismarck and Tirpitz. To summarize: in 1/700 scale, Aoshima, Dragon, Trumpeter, and Matchbox have released models of them.  In 1/350 scale, Tamiya, Academy, and Revell have done so.  In 1/400 scale, Heller and Kangnam have released kits. Hasegawa did so in 1/450 scale. Revell also has them in 1/570 and 1/1200 scales; Airfix has them in 1/600.  Numerous other companies have released them in 1/800 and other miscellaneous scales.  How many model kits of these ships do we need?

I would rather that the manufacturers focus on other battleships!  See Searat12's thread on recommended kits.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by searat12 on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:04 AM

Yeah, I like the 'eye candy' argument best myself! ;o)

That said, there is a lot about battleships and battlecruisers that have not really been appreciated, not even now.  The standard argument is that the aircraft carrier 'swept the field' of battleships, making them all obsolete in a stroke, and that they were so costly, that nations were afraid to commit them to battles where they might be lost, etc. 

It is important to understand that the battleship really was one of the first real 'weapons of mass destruction' created, and huge resources were put into their construction, so much so, that by the end of WW1, the former 'great powers' (in particular, Great Britain) realized that if they were to continue to try to keep pace with new powers arising (in particular, Japan and the US), they would be completely bankrupted (sounds kind of like what the US did to the USSR in the Cold War!).  Therefore, before this could occur, and while the Brits still had the most powerful 'fleet in being,' they made enormous diplomatic efforts to rein in battleship production by other nations, voluntarily 'giving up' a large number of their own battleships in the process, while retaining a relatively powerful position in comparison with the other powers of the day.  What this effectively meant was largely scrapping their fleet, and under treaty terms, scrapping large numbers of battleships belonging to other nations at the same time.  Of course, this does not, in any way demonstrate that battleships were in any way 'obsolete' or undesirable, just unaffordable by the UK!  Certainly, if push came to shove, many of these ships that the Brits scrapped could have been modernised and significantly upgraded, as were most of the Italian battleships, and the Japanese battleships and battlecruisers as well.

Germany, under the terms of the Versailles Treaty, lost 25 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers, a fleet which took some 15 years to build with 'an open checkbook' (let alone all the submarines, cruisers, etc, which were also eliminated).  Britain lost 24 (which does not count war losses), the US lost 8, and scrapped a  number of additional ships that were in construction, and Japan scrapped a number of ships and planned ships as well (and two were converted into aircraft carriers).

In other words, more than 60 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers were scrapped during the 1920's and '30's, not because they were in any particular way ineffective or useless, but to suit political and economic issues, and mostly that of Britain!  The result of this 'vacuum of power' caused two important developments, the first being the rapid development of the aircraft carrier, and less well appreciated, the development of the heavy cruiser, which largely supplanted the battleship in a surface fleet role, simply because there were no longer enough battleships in existence to form the kind of squadrons necessary to perform proper battleship combat functions.  All through the '20's and '30's, the remaining fleets with numbers of battleships (primarily, the US and UK) still did their exercises and evolutions as squadrons, the idea being to perform much the way they always had.  This changed dramatically in WW2, with the loss of a significant portion of the US battlefleet at Pearl Harbor, plus the sheer number of different tasks and operational areas that now required some measure of battleship support, and not because the battleship squadron was in any way outdated. 

Britain simultaneously had to commit capital ships in the Med (to counter the Italians), the Pacific (to counter the Japanese), the North Atlantic (to deal with German battleships and battlecruisers breaking out), and the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans (to deal with powerful commerce raiders like Graf Spee).  Quite simply, there were not enough battleships available to deal with all of these in squadrons as before, and given the nature of many of these operations (chasing after single ships somewhere in the middle of the ocean, not confronting other squadrons, and not worrying too much about enemy air attacks), it was both sensible and operationally necessary to deploy these battleship assets in twos and threes, so the job for which these battleships were designed (working in squadrons) was just not possible. France only had TWO operational capital ships at the start of the war (Dunkerque and Strassbourg), with a few very old dreadnoughts that had been converted into training ships.  Italy had a good squadron of capital ships, but because of a lack of experience, plus a healthy fear of British battleships, and of course, the ugly experience of Taranto, rarely did much of any use, being largely pinned down by the RAF (or more truthfully, the FEAR of being pinned down!).

Looking at the US experience in comparison with that of the Brits, much the same was true, with battleship commitments necessary in the Atlantic, North Africa, the Med and all over the Pacific as well, and with much of the US battlefleet sunk at Pearl, the few remaining battleships available could only be dispersed among the carrier task forces to act as AA platforms (and they did a tremendous job in that role!) and shore bombardment.  At the same time, since the Japanese fleet only had a few battleships that were actually fit to 'stand in the line,' such as the Yamatos and Nagatos (four ships in total, as the 'Kongos' were still battlecruisers, and the Fuso's and Hyuga's were too slow to keep up), the idea of a squadron of these operating in concert was only used as a desperate last measure at Leyte (which of course meant the US did not NEED to form up in battle squadrons of their own).  And an interesting note here, is that despite confronting a force of 18 escort carriers (Taffy 1, 2 & 3, the equivalent of six 'Essex' class fleet carriers, plus hundreds of land-based planes, and suffering innumerable airstrikes and submarine attacks on their way to the battle area off Samar with no aircover of their own, the Japanese battle squadron of Kurita in fact arrived, having only lost Musashi and two heavy cruisers, and might well have proceeded to cause some real damage, if Kurita had not decided to play it safe and go home... This does not indicate, at least not to me, that a battleship squadron with a measure of air support, was in any way either 'obsolete,' 'ineffective,' or doomed to defeat at the hands of aircraft, or aircraft carriers (and what might have happened if Kurita's force had been directed at Surigao, instead of Samar, is a question for the ages!).

Germany, in full recognition of its complete inferiority in terms of squadron operations, had really no choice BUT to conduct largely single ship operations against merchant ships, as anything else would have only resulted in the immediate and comprehensive  destruction of the German ships involved.  It is also important to realise that in the Bismarck 'incident,' the only reason Bismarck did not escape safely to Brest was the result of one extremely lucky and otherwise badly aimed torpedo hit in the one place that could (and did!) cause real problems, the rudder!  If that torpedo hat hit just about anywhere else, Bismarck would have shrugged it off and continued at speed!  That is not to say that the situation for the German Navy would have changed dramatically as a result (as Bismarck failed to sink any merchant ships, and still could have been bombed in Brest as was Gneisenau), as there still would not have been enough capital ships available to form an effective battle squadron.

As for Bill's comments about the model manufacturers spending too much energy on Bismarck, as against other capital ships, I cannot but agree!

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:26 AM
 searat12 wrote:

Yeah, I like the 'eye candy' argument best myself! ;o)

That said, there is a lot about battleships and battlecruisers that have not really been appreciated, not even now.  The standard argument is that the aircraft carrier 'swept the field' of battleships, making them all obsolete in a stroke, and that they were so costly, that nations were afraid to commit them to battles where they might be lost, etc. 

It is important to understand that the battleship really was one of the first real 'weapons of mass destruction' created, and huge resources were put into their construction, so much so, that by the end of WW1, the former 'great powers' (in particular, Great Britain) realized that if they were to continue to try to keep pace with new powers arising (in particular, Japan and the US), they would be completely bankrupted (sounds kind of like what the US did to the USSR in the Cold War!).  Therefore, before this could occur, and while the Brits still had the most powerful 'fleet in being,' they made enormous diplomatic efforts to rein in battleship production by other nations, voluntarily 'giving up' a large number of their own battleships in the process, while retaining a relatively powerful position in comparison with the other powers of the day.  What this effectively meant was largely scrapping their fleet, and under treaty terms, scrapping large numbers of battleships belonging to other nations at the same time.  Of course, this does not, in any way demonstrate that battleships were in any way 'obsolete' or undesirable, just unaffordable by the UK!  Certainly, if push came to shove, many of these ships that the Brits scrapped could have been modernised and significantly upgraded, as were most of the Italian battleships, and the Japanese battleships and battlecruisers as well.

Germany, under the terms of the Versailles Treaty, lost 25 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers, a fleet which took some 15 years to build with 'an open checkbook' (let alone all the submarines, cruisers, etc, which were also eliminated).  Britain lost 24 (which does not count war losses), the US lost 8, and scrapped a  number of additional ships that were in construction, and Japan scrapped a number of ships and planned ships as well (and two were converted into aircraft carriers).

In other words, more than 60 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers were scrapped during the 1920's and '30's, not because they were in any particular way ineffective or useless, but to suit political and economic issues, and mostly that of Britain!  The result of this 'vacuum of power' caused two important developments, the first being the rapid development of the aircraft carrier, and less well appreciated, the development of the heavy cruiser, which largely supplanted the battleship in a surface fleet role, simply because there were no longer enough battleships in existence to form the kind of squadrons necessary to perform proper battleship combat functions.  All through the '20's and '30's, the remaining fleets with numbers of battleships (primarily, the US and UK) still did their exercises and evolutions as squadrons, the idea being to perform much the way they always had.  This changed dramatically in WW2, with the loss of a significant portion of the US battlefleet at Pearl Harbor, plus the sheer number of different tasks and operational areas that now required some measure of battleship support, and not because the battleship squadron was in any way outdated. 

Britain simultaneously had to commit capital ships in the Med (to counter the Italians), the Pacific (to counter the Japanese), the North Atlantic (to deal with German battleships and battlecruisers breaking out), and the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans (to deal with powerful commerce raiders like Graf Spee).  Quite simply, there were not enough battleships available to deal with all of these in squadrons as before, and given the nature of many of these operations (chasing after single ships somewhere in the middle of the ocean, not confronting other squadrons, and not worrying too much about enemy air attacks), it was both sensible and operationally necessary to deploy these battleship assets in twos and threes, so the job for which these battleships were designed (working in squadrons) was just not possible. France only had TWO operational capital ships at the start of the war (Dunkerque and Strassbourg), with a few very old dreadnoughts that had been converted into training ships.  Italy had a good squadron of capital ships, but because of a lack of experience, plus a healthy fear of British battleships, and of course, the ugly experience of Taranto, rarely did much of any use, being largely pinned down by the RAF (or more truthfully, the FEAR of being pinned down!).

Looking at the US experience in comparison with that of the Brits, much the same was true, with battleship commitments necessary in the Atlantic, North Africa, the Med and all over the Pacific as well, and with much of the US battlefleet sunk at Pearl, the few remaining battleships available could only be dispersed among the carrier task forces to act as AA platforms (and they did a tremendous job in that role!) and shore bombardment.  At the same time, since the Japanese fleet only had a few battleships that were actually fit to 'stand in the line,' such as the Yamatos and Nagatos (four ships in total, as the 'Kongos' were still battlecruisers, and the Fuso's and Hyuga's were too slow to keep up), the idea of a squadron of these operating in concert was only used as a desperate last measure at Leyte (which of course meant the US did not NEED to form up in battle squadrons of their own).  And an interesting note here, is that despite confronting a force of 18 escort carriers (Taffy 1, 2 & 3, the equivalent of six 'Essex' class fleet carriers, plus hundreds of land-based planes, and suffering innumerable airstrikes and submarine attacks on their way to the battle area off Samar with no aircover of their own, the Japanese battle squadron of Kurita in fact arrived, having only lost Musashi and two heavy cruisers, and might well have proceeded to cause some real damage, if Kurita had not decided to play it safe and go home... This does not indicate, at least not to me, that a battleship squadron with a measure of air support, was in any way either 'obsolete,' 'ineffective,' or doomed to defeat at the hands of aircraft, or aircraft carriers (and what might have happened if Kurita's force had been directed at Surigao, instead of Samar, is a question for the ages!).

Germany, in full recognition of its complete inferiority in terms of squadron operations, had really no choice BUT to conduct largely single ship operations against merchant ships, as anything else would have only resulted in the immediate and comprehensive  destruction of the German ships involved.  It is also important to realise that in the Bismarck 'incident,' the only reason Bismarck did not escape safely to Brest was the result of one extremely lucky and otherwise badly aimed torpedo hit in the one place that could (and did!) cause real problems, the rudder!  If that torpedo hat hit just about anywhere else, Bismarck would have shrugged it off and continued at speed!  That is not to say that the situation for the German Navy would have changed dramatically as a result (as Bismarck failed to sink any merchant ships, and still could have been bombed in Brest as was Gneisenau), as there still would not have been enough capital ships available to form an effective battle squadron.

As for Bill's comments about the model manufacturers spending too much energy on Bismarck, as against other capital ships, I cannot but agree!

Very articulate bit of writing which basically boils down to my original thesis: BB's were husbaned in WW2...you've spelled out specific reasons that support my assertions... 
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:20 PM

Manny,

Perhaps if you defined your meaning of "husbaned" it would clarify things for me.  To me, the term means that battleships were kept in port in relative safety as in WWI after Jutland.  Again, during WWII, battleships were heavily engaged by most navies that had them.  I have shown how the Americans and the British used them extensively; the Germans used them until December 1943, while the French fought theirs when absolutely necessary.  Even the Italians sortied theirs regularly, only to turn away when faced by british capital ships. Only the Japanese kept theirs in home waters or away from the fighting.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:27 PM
Husbaned: used with extreme caution and sparingly against other BB's or carrier groups.
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:30 PM

Manny,

Thanks for your quick response! I will just leave it that I respectfully and sincerely disagree with that assessment. I agree that they were husbaned in WWI but not in WWII for the reasons that I've already stated.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:17 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny,

Thanks for your quick response! I will just leave it that I respectfully and sincerely disagree with that assessment. I agree that they were husbaned in WWI but not in WWII for the reasons that I've already stated.

Bill Morrison

I still don't think you understand...IMO, they were husbaned in the sense that most BB fleets avoided surface action with other BB fleets...

As far as BB's being used extensively in other roles during WWII, I agree with you, they were: shore bombardment, escorting carrier groups, etc...but rarely did BB's tangle w/ each other...

  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:38 PM

Manny,

I count at least eight instances when capital ships fought each other in WWII.  That doesn't include those instances when they were at sea hunting for each other. Even towards the end of the war, when Yamato was on her suicide charge, the U.S. battleships under Admiral Lee were sailing an intercept course to engage Yamato.

To me, this fact means that these ships weren't husbanded. To you, it means that they were. I guess that it is in the eyes of the beholder. History is based on interpretation.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
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  • From: Waiting for a 1/350 USS Salt Lake City....
Posted by AJB93 on Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:57 PM
I don't think I've seen a thread fly off so quickly. Anyways, forgetting historical discussions (I don't give a flying flip about the history, if it looks good I build it...I dare you to say I am wrong to do so!) I am very interested in your Bismarck build and would like to see some photos. It sounds as if you are doing a very thorough job and as I like this ship and would like to build this model I would like to see what you're doing.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 9:14 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny,

I count at least eight instances when capital ships fought each other in WWII.  That doesn't include those instances when they were at sea hunting for each other. Even towards the end of the war, when Yamato was on her suicide charge, the U.S. battleships under Admiral Lee were sailing an intercept course to engage Yamato.

To me, this fact means that these ships weren't husbanded. To you, it means that they were. I guess that it is in the eyes of the beholder. History is based on interpretation.

Bill Morrison

...eight instances in 6 years of war? To me, that's being husbaned...and the Yamato incident?...the Japanese took extreme pains to keep that ship out of harm's way until the very end...I sincerely just don't see your point of view...let's just agree to disagree...
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:10 PM

Manny,

I have already said that I agree to disagree.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:18 PM
By the way, what eight instances are you referring to? I'll bet that all eight (or close to all) were "chance" encounters and NOT BB's seeking out other BB's to tangle with...for example, the Bismarck debacle is what I call a "chance" encounter---the Germans did not seek out the fight they got...
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 25, 2009 8:04 AM

Manny,

I have already said that I agree to disagree.  Please read my previous posts . . . they outline the capital ship engagements very well.

And, it doesn't matter whether or not the Germans sought out engagements between capital ships; they used their ships aggressively against British commerce until Bismarck's loss in May 1941. They planned for a "guerre d' course" not a war against opposing navies. The Panzerschiffe and the Scharnhorsts were designed for such a war.  The Germans did not "husband" them. Following the loss of Bismarck, their theater of operations changed to the far north where they used them when they could. In other words, they "forward deployed" to Norway in order to interdict Allied shipping. In itself, that was an aggressive move and not one of "husbanding."  Remember, the British were also very aggressive in constantly trying to damage German capital ships, keeping them from going to sea.

Our discussion does not center on German ships. British capital ships were constantly at sea, seeking out German ships.  Every convoy had at least one "R" class battleship as protection against German commerce raiders,whatever their type. The British clearly did not "husband" their capital ships.

Nor did the Americans. Rather than "husband" them, American battleships were constantly at sea with carrier groups, bombardment groups, or fighting ship-to-ship engagements. They did not stay in port as a reserve, the meaning of "husbanding".

The French were only in the war for six weeks. They never had a chance to actually fight against the Germans, but Dunkerque still participated in the hunt for Graf Spee with Hood.

Only the Italians and the Japanese sought to "husband" their ships. The Italians did deploy their ships but retreated when faced with the British. The Japanese sent only the Kongo class out; the others were husbaned.  My comment about Yamato in my last entry did not mean that the Japanese used her aggressively, rather, that the American sought to engage her by using their battleships.

Anyway, again, let's agree to disagree. Historical interpretation can be tricky, depending much on an individual's point of view.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
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  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, May 25, 2009 9:12 AM

Also, I thought I had made the point that battleships did not fight each other in fleets in WW2, because there simply weren't enough battleships around to do so!  A fighting battleship squadron really needs at least four battleships, and a few cruisers and destroyers for a screen, and just about the only time in WW2 where there were actually enough battleships available in any one place for such formations was at Leyte, and of course, this is also when the last battleship vs battleship battle was fought (though there was certainly other opportunities in the Med, but the Italians backed down).  In other words, if your enemy isn't cruising around with squadrons of battleships, there is no need for you to do so, and so largely, they didn't!  This is not quite the same as being 'husbanded,' at least by my interpretation.  Instead, appropriate ship grouplings were assembled to deal with equivalent groupings of opposing ships.  Guadalcanal is a good example of this.  As long as the Japanese were sending cruiser groups into battle, the Americans responded with cruiser groups of their own.  But once the Japanese 'upped the ante' by sending in a couple of battlecruisers, the Americans upped their stake as well with a couple of battleships of their own in response, with predictable results..... 

In any case, I would very much like to see any progress made on one of these Revell Bismarcks, as I plan to get one myself as soon as my Trumpeter Prinz Eugen arrives....

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 25, 2009 10:59 AM
 searat12 wrote:
Also, I thought I had made the point that battleships did not fight each other in fleets in WW2, because there simply weren't enough battleships around to do so! 
Very true, that's why navies were loath to use them...cruisers fought the lion's share of "heavy" surface actions...and after WW2, well, BB's were obsolete---heck, probably were at the start of WW2...
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  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Monday, May 25, 2009 11:32 AM
Was her true value that she tied up much needed resources, while at port, that the British could have used elsewhere? 
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 25, 2009 4:57 PM

If navies were so loathe to use battleships, why did they fight in virtually every major naval battle or campaign of WWII? That is an undeniable fact.  The fact and the statement do not match; if navies were in fact loathe to use them, why did they use them? But, use them they did. Please explain . . . Confused [%-)]

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 25, 2009 6:47 PM
 ps1scw wrote:
Was her true value that she tied up much needed resources, while at port, that the British could have used elsewhere? 
Are you speaking of Bismarck? She was commisioned in 1940 (I believe?) and sunk less than a year later. She didn't tie 'em up for long...she was pretty, though.
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Posted by tankerbuilder on Monday, May 25, 2009 7:23 PM
 HEY WARSHIPGUY !! I must say ,this thread did kinda go bonkers on the old BISMARK . I think that many ships have been ignored by mfgrs. ,why? What would be wrong with a really good model of H.M.S. RODNEY ???? The lack of ships like her in 1/350 is sad . What an unusual profile she had . The papermodel companies (although some definitely don,t like them ) Have many ships from many navies and they are usually in the same scale . Now how about this . I am presently building S.M.S. KRONPRINZ (ww1) .I am using the polish paper model for the patterns . It,s in 1/200 scale . Now how about a 1/350 model of ARIZONA or her sisters in as launched rig . How many plastic models have you seen with cage masts and torpedo netting .?? I think that just like liners the companies only make what they know will sell . The reason is no one has made a blockbuster movie about the ANDREA DORIA or the NORMANDIE !!! Everyone I know today , even some teens have heard of TITANIC !!!! The DORIA ,????????? NUFF SAID !   tankerbuilder
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  • From: MS
Posted by KevM on Monday, May 25, 2009 8:38 PM
Hey Rabbiteatsnake  any headway on the build yet?The pics I have seen of the built one's look really good.
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  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, May 25, 2009 9:05 PM
Manny, I still don't think you have quite understood what I have been saying, but I will try one more time...The record shows exactly the opposite of 'battleships being husbanded,' with battleships repeatedly committed in every theater of the war, and in every kind of operation, from convoy escort, to carrier support, to shore bombardment, to search and destroy missions against other heavy warships, etc, etc.....  I STILL don't know why people keep saying battleships were 'obsolete' at any time in WW2, or even well after (Heck!  Even today!).  As I have said repeatedly, battleships kicked butt in every operation they were involved in during WW2, but because there were so few of them available in WW2 (and NOT because they were in any way 'obsolete,' but because of the treaties of the '20's and '30's), they did not operate as they were intended, in squadrons, and against squadrons.

After WW2, the only nations that had any number of battleships were the US and the UK, and the UK could no longer afford to operate even ONE battleship, let alone a fleet of them (the cost of TWO world wars finally bankrupted the empire, which collapsed shortly after), and so the Brits scrapped them all.  This left the US as the ONLY nation with any number of battleships (the French still had two, and committed them at Suez in the '50's, you may recall), but as there were NO adversaries left in the world with any real pretensions to seapower, the battleship was retired by the US (though repeatedly reactivated as need required).  Again, this was NOT because of 'nuclear warfare threats' (the Bikini Atoll atomic tests showed that battleships were in fact the ONLY ships likely to survive a direct nuclear strike!), or the aircraft carrier either, as naval warfare had evolved to feature balanced task forces with carriers AND battleships for mutual defense.  However, as the US was ALSO just about the only nation with any appreciable number of aircraft carriers either, it was easier and cheaper to mothball the battleships, rather than the carriers.  Even today, there is a role for the battleship which has YET to be equalled by any other ship-type (shore bombardment), but as long as no other nation decides to BUILD battleships (and in fact the technology and industry to do so has been lost for at least 50 years!), then there is no reason for the US to reactivate the Missouri's again, or design any new ones either.  In other words, that particular hatchet HAS been buried, but not because it wasn't sharp!

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 25, 2009 11:52 PM
 searat12 wrote:
Manny, I still don't think you have quite understood what I have been saying, but I will try one more time...The record shows exactly the opposite of 'battleships being husbanded,' with battleships repeatedly committed in every theater of the war, and in every kind of operation, from convoy escort, to carrier support, to shore bombardment, to search and destroy missions against other heavy warships, etc, etc.....  I STILL don't know why people keep saying battleships were 'obsolete' at any time in WW2, or even well after (Heck!  Even today!).  As I have said repeatedly, battleships kicked butt in every operation they were involved in during WW2, but because there were so few of them available in WW2 (and NOT because they were in any way 'obsolete,' but because of the treaties of the '20's and '30's), they did not operate as they were intended, in squadrons, and against squadrons.

After WW2, the only nations that had any number of battleships were the US and the UK, and the UK could no longer afford to operate even ONE battleship, let alone a fleet of them (the cost of TWO world wars finally bankrupted the empire, which collapsed shortly after), and so the Brits scrapped them all.  This left the US as the ONLY nation with any number of battleships (the French still had two, and committed them at Suez in the '50's, you may recall), but as there were NO adversaries left in the world with any real pretensions to seapower, the battleship was retired by the US (though repeatedly reactivated as need required).  Again, this was NOT because of 'nuclear warfare threats' (the Bikini Atoll atomic tests showed that battleships were in fact the ONLY ships likely to survive a direct nuclear strike!), or the aircraft carrier either, as naval warfare had evolved to feature balanced task forces with carriers AND battleships for mutual defense.  However, as the US was ALSO just about the only nation with any appreciable number of aircraft carriers either, it was easier and cheaper to mothball the battleships, rather than the carriers.  Even today, there is a role for the battleship which has YET to be equalled by any other ship-type (shore bombardment), but as long as no other nation decides to BUILD battleships (and in fact the technology and industry to do so has been lost for at least 50 years!), then there is no reason for the US to reactivate the Missouri's again, or design any new ones either.  In other words, that particular hatchet HAS been buried, but not because it wasn't sharp!

Because of the debate going on over this topic I broke out several refs tonight on the subject to make sure I wasn't losing my mind...and ALL agree that the aircraft carrier rendered the BB obsolete pretty much at the start (really before) of the war...after it was shown that air power could sink BB's they played second fiddle to the CA and could NOT operate in waters where a carrier was unchallenged...most went on to say that BB's were archaic by war's end...one went so far as to state that the only reason the Mighty MO hung around as long as it did was sentimentality and pride of a by-gone era...

"...luckily, the two US carriers were not in port during the Japanese raid on Pearl; otherwise, the US could not have rebounded so quickly and strike the devastating blow to the Japanese fleet at Midway..."

...Midway...that about sums it up...

 

 

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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:30 AM

Whereas I agree that aircraft carriers changed the role of the battleship I disagree with the common assessment that they rendered the battleship obsolete.  Carriers became the primary strike weapon of the fleet, but there were many examples of carrier airpower being unable to deal with shore bombardment problems.  Carriers also depended heavily on antiaircraft firepower of battleships; many more would have been lost had it not been for their battleship escorts!There are indeed roles for them to play in today's concern over the littoral environment. The limiting factor is cost not effectiveness. Otherwise the Soviets/Russians would not continue to operate the Kirov class.

Besides the U.S. Navy, no other navy operates carriers in any number. Only a few exist elsewhere, and the U.S. Navy only has 12. The limiting factor, again, is cost not effectiveness. Most navies are operating missile oriented surface ships. The Falklands conflict saw what missiles can do to unprotected warships.

Searat12 is right when he said that the Bikini nuclear tests demonstrated that the only ships capable of surviving a nuclear attack are battleships.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:36 AM
 warshipguy wrote:

Searat12 is right when he said that the Bikini nuclear tests demonstrated that the only ships capable of surviving a nuclear attack are battleships.

Bill Morrison

"Surviving" is a relative term...they still floated...

I really doubt anyone believes that ANY ship, after suffering from a nuclear blast would still be in any capacity to conduct offensive operations...Had there been real people on those ships at Bikini, most probably all would have been killed outright, severly injured and/or had radiation exposure that would have killed them within days or weeks...the "surviving" ships themselves were so radioactive that they could never be used again for their original purpose, so I'm not sure what your point is about them "surviving".

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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:50 AM

I'm not interested in joining this debate, as it's way beyond my knowledge, just a listener.

Here's a point I thought of a few pages back. BB's were a big political statement, an expression of national pride and empire, and to lose one, let alone five, would be a national tragedy on the greatest scale. For the British and the Germans, the Italians and the French to a lesser extent, that must have figured into their war plans.

If I was forced to be at Bikini, I'd pick a submarine.

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    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 12:19 PM
bondoman, i think you would rather be in an aircraft in that situation. the baker underwater explosion damaged & sunk more ships then the able airburst did. a sub most unlikely will survive an underwater nuke explosion.
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Posted by eatthis on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:14 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Whereas I agree that aircraft carriers changed the role of the battleship I disagree with the common assessment that they rendered the battleship obsolete.  Carriers became the primary strike weapon of the fleet, but there were many examples of carrier airpower being unable to deal with shore bombardment problems.  Carriers also depended heavily on antiaircraft firepower of battleships; many more would have been lost had it not been for their battleship escorts!There are indeed roles for them to play in today's concern over the littoral environment. The limiting factor is cost not effectiveness. Otherwise the Soviets/Russians would not continue to operate the Kirov class.

Besides the U.S. Navy, no other navy operates carriers in any number. Only a few exist elsewhere, and the U.S. Navy only has 12. The limiting factor, again, is cost not effectiveness. Most navies are operating missile oriented surface ships. The Falklands conflict saw what missiles can do to unprotected warships.

 

Bill Morrison

 

true the missile that destroyed sheffield didnt even go off!! fire an excoset at a bb and it would barely even dent it

 

snow + 4wd + escessive hp = :)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7egUIS70YM

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Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:51 PM
Actually, the USS Dentuda, a Balao class sub, was moored submerged just outside of the 1,000 yard perimeter of the Baker blast. As she was submerged, she avoided the highly radioactive base surge and hull damage that the surface ships (including surfaced subs) did. She was decontaminated rather easily, underwent minor repairs, and was briely returned to active service. None of the surface ships (at least none of the surface ships in the immediate area of the blast) could make that claim. Although the Saratoga and Prinz Eugen were still afloat, they were so highly radioactively contaminated that crew survival would have been unlikely. I think I would have preferred to take my chances in a submerged submarine.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:59 PM
 subfixer wrote:
Actually, the USS Dentuda, a Balao class sub, was moored submerged just outside of the 1,000 yard perimeter of the Baker blast. As she was submerged, she avoided the highly radioactive base surge and hull damage that the surface ships (including surfaced subs) did. She was decontaminated rather easily, underwent minor repairs, and was briely returned to active service. None of the surface ships (at least none of the surface ships in the immediate area of the blast) could make that claim. Although the Saratoga and Prinz Eugen were still afloat, they were so highly radioactively contaminated that crew survival would have been unlikely. I think I would have preferred to take my chances in a submerged submarine.
Well, I guess that earlier post on BB's being the only type of ship that survived a nuclear blast was just innacurate...
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Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 3:19 PM
Submarines are boatsPirate [oX)]Laugh [(-D]
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Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 3:51 PM

Manny's point about radiation exposure could be true if subsequent ship design did not take this into consideration. Modern ships are designed with NBC warfare protection in mind.  First, the men inside the ship would have had a large degree of protection depending largely on where they were. Radiation decontamination is practised quite regularly on warships with any sort of nuclear capabilities. Second, shipboard washdown capabilities can reduce or eliminate surface contamination. Third, topside damage did heavily damage the battleships' offensive capabilities. But, my comment was that those ships could survive. I said nothing about their ability to fight an immediate battle after undergoing such an explosion. Admiral Tirpitz said it best when he said that a surviving ship, no matter how heavily damaged, could be repaired at a fraction of the cost at a fraction of the time of building a new ship.

As for Manny's additional comment that it is incorrect that battleships were the only ships to survive at Bikini, at no time did I say that they were.  Battleships are more likely to survive than other surface ships, but there are many factors to consider.  What was the type of explosion, its yield, the location of the ship in relation to the explosion, etc.  These factors being equal, the better protected ship would have a better chance of survival.  The Exocet missile that hit HMS Sheffield and sank her would have been shrugged off by a better protected ship. And, don't forget that USS Saratoga, the carrier that survived, was designed as a battlecruiser with a very stout hull. 

Bill Morrison

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Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:00 PM
The radiation that was emitted (in Baker) wasn't just easily washed down surface contamination but fixed contamination that even sandblasting won't remove. Not only that, but some metals are activated by the neutron flux that occurs during the blast. These metals then become radioactive sources themselves. A little fallout from an airburst is one thing, but Baker was an underwater burst which is an entirely different animal.

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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:09 PM

Well, it might be interesting to have a look at the Bikini Atoll nuke tests!  Here is a good summary:  http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq76-1.htm

There were two tests, one as an airburst that did very little (the raditaion was so negligible that the ships were bale to be reboarded within a day, and only five ships were sunk from this explosion (none of them battleships).  The results of this test can be seen here:  http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq76-3.htm     The next test was an underwater explosion in the middle of the assembled fleet, the center portion of which was largely made up of battleships and carriers.  This test was much more destructive, with two battleships (Arkansas and Nagato) sunk, one carrier sunk (Saratoga), and several others.  More importantly, the ships were all bathed in radioactive water spray from the explosion, which rendered them very radioactive indeed.  However, the battleships, by virtue of their very thick armor, were largely protected from internal radioactivity, though of course their exteriors were quite hot! 

After these tests, most of the ships were subsequently cleaned up and either towed away or sailed away under their own power, and were expended as targets later, as seen here:  http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq76-5.htm

In other words, nukes aren't particularly good weapons to throw at ships, especially not ships at sea (as against moored in a harbor), and battleships are the least vulnerable of all, due to the radioactive resistance of their very thick armor....

As for the supposed 'supremacy' of the carrier over the battleship, from every source I have read when examined closely, this is pretty much a myth!  When you figure it took the combined efforts of 18 jeep carriers (the equivalent of SIX fleet carriers!), plus ground-based airpower to drive off a Japanese battlesquadron (at Leyte), and in fact, there was really not a lot of reason for that battlesquadron to turn away (other than the perception of its very ill Admiral, Kurita), and could WELL have pushed on and wiped out ALL of those carriers, this should give you some indication of what a proper battlesquadron can do, if it moves with determination!  There were a couple other instances of this in the Solomons, where the Japanese Admiral (on board a carrier like Shokaku) would call off the battlesquadron, just as it was within striking distance of the American carriers (in fact, USS Hornet was 'finished off' by destroyers of this battlesquadron, and if they had just pushed on a few more miles, would have caught USS Enterprise and blown her out of the water, thus eliminating further US airsupport for Guadalcanal!).  The reason for such withdrawals in all cases for the Japanese was the loss of their carriers, not their battleships or heavy cruisers (and this was the case at Midway, etc, etc, etc), which in fact were often in a position to have redressed the losses in no uncertain terms, but didn't because of the overcaution of their overall Admiral, rather than the Admiral on hand.... I really do recommend you get a chance to read 'A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy' by Paul S. Dull (you can get a used copy from Amazon for just a couple bucks).  Once you get a really good understanding of these various battles, you will get a better idea of how close some of these things actually were, with just a nudge required by a few battleships that could have turned a number of US victories into bloody and disasterous defeats...

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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:20 PM

And here is an intersting little bit of oral history regarding the tests:  http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-6b.htm

Note the tale about USS Nevada.....

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Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM

Alright, I'm goin' in Marv! You guys are too much fun to ignore. Ref my last post, and no I wouldn't have been near Bikini in anything, there's a certain something about battlewagons. As symbols of national pride, I'd opine that reading between the lines of Searats post there's a hesitancy to throw them full throttle into an engagement as opposed to say a cruiser, that as Bill suggests they have an air of invincibility, therefore when you lose one, you are perceived as losing period, and to be ecumenical our friend Manny I believe has a point: can't operate without air cover, as you can probably sink one with a couple of dozen airplanes.

I don't know a thing abt war planning, but I'd guess that the idea was to keep them from being sunk, at all costs. Out of range of opponents aircraft.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:37 PM

Funny, all of my refs say quite the opposite: carriers rendered BB's obsolete...period...if that isn't the case, why haven't fleets been represented by this notion since WW2?

You also prove my earlier point about BB's being husbaned, at least by the Japanese...they were so afraid of losing one of thir capital ships, they turned away time and again, even when victory seemed imminent---although hindight is 20/20...

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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:04 PM
Mostly the Japanese turned away (as I explained!) because of the loss, or threat of loss for their carriers, not because there was any threat to the battleships (they wanted the battleships AA capabilities).  As for why no battleships were built after WW2, Europe and its industry were completely destroyed, as was that of Japan.  The US had SUCH preponderance of battleships (AND carriers) that there really seemed no point in even trying to match the US Navy, and with no other battleships to counter, the US Navy progressively mothballed the battleships they had (and brought them right back out every time there was a major conflict where they could be used!).  In fact, battleships have been out of production for SO long, that the technology no longer exists to build them, even if a nation wanted to!  The steel-rolling mills and casting foundries necessary to produce 12-14" armor plate no longer exist anywhere in the world, and to recreate them would cost SO much, that economically, you would be better off establishing a new Space program.....
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Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:27 PM

Manny,

I believe that I said that the only navy to husband their battleships was the Japanese Navy. No other navy did so. Just reread my posts; you will see it repeated many times in my comments.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:00 PM

I'd add the Italians, the French and the Germans in that group as well...

...just got through watching the Military Channel (not that I rely much on that channel for hard facts) and saw a program on sea power which restated that BB's were obsolete after Midway...

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Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:20 PM

Too bad that the Military Channel got another fact wrong. Battleships shot down many aircraft during the war; many more aircraft carriers would have been sunk without their AA protection. Many amateur historians confuse the issue of changing roles with obsolescence.  The role of the battleship was changed in WWII in large measure because carrier aircraft could strike farther. But many very suitable roles emerged for battleships that carrier aircraft could not fulfill.  One has only to look at the makeup of most surface fleets today to see that most navies rely on missile-firing surface combatants, with carriers being much too expensive to operate in terms of money and manpower.  The word "obsolete" is greatly overused.

Anyway, again, let's agree to disagree. I wish I could meet you and discuss this amicably over a beer.  This forum was supposed to be about the RoG 1/350 kit of the Bismarck. It is an exceptional kit of an interesting ship. I have both the Bismarck and the Tirpitz by RoG and am looking forward to building them. And that fully justifies them to me.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:45 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Too bad that the Military Channel got another fact wrong. Battleships shot down many aircraft during the war; many more aircraft carriers would have been sunk without their AA protection. Many amateur historians confuse the issue of changing roles with obsolescence.  The role of the battleship was changed in WWII in large measure because carrier aircraft could strike farther. But many very suitable roles emerged for battleships that carrier aircraft could not fulfill.  One has only to look at the makeup of most surface fleets today to see that most navies rely on missile-firing surface combatants, with carriers being much too expensive to operate in terms of money and manpower.  The word "obsolete" is greatly overused.

Anyway, again, let's agree to disagree. I wish I could meet you and discuss this amicably over a beer.  This forum was supposed to be about the RoG 1/350 kit of the Bismarck. It is an exceptional kit of an interesting ship. I have both the Bismarck and the Tirpitz by RoG and am looking forward to building them. And that fully justifies them to me.

Bill Morrison

I have over 30 hard-cover books on naval history (many more soft-cover), and ALL of them agree that at the time of WW2 BB's were obsolete and carriers took over as the striking force of navies...I suppose all of those books couldn't have been written by amateurs...

I get that you are a huge battleship fan...I happen to like them as well; I have a dio in progress of Glowworm ramming the Hipper...Noone needs to justify building a particular ship...But, if BB's were relevant, the US would be sending BB's to the "hot spots" in the world today instead of carriers...I'll have a brew with you anytime... 

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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:16 PM

...I DO seem to recall an American BB showing in the Gulf War not TOO long ago, laying down some serious fire for the Marines and firing missiles into Baghdad as well  How's that for a 'hot spot?'...... I agree, the myth of battleship 'obsolesence' has been around for a long time, it's in a lot of books, and it is one I used to believe in myself.  The trouble is, once you really start to pick apart the facts, you will come to a different conclusion!  It's funny, the battleship has been claimed to be 'obsolete' on many different occasions, over 150 years, and each time with the rise of different and new technologies.  The first was the invention of the mine, then the torpedo was supposed to make all capital ships completely helpless, then submarines obviously made battleships obsolete, then the airplane, then the nuclear bomb, blah, blah, blah... Yet still they show up, again and again, and for one simple reason, and that is that nothing has been invented that can throw that much metal downrange with such accuracy, and survive a counterblow of the same weight of metal or more.... And still hasn't!  I'd put the good old Missouri up against the Kirov, or the Kiev, OR the Kuznetsov any day of the week, and I know full well who would end up swimming, and they wouldn't be wearing 'dixie cup' hats!!

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Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:25 PM

Just as an aside; the 18 escort carriers at Leyte were for covering the amphibious landings and weren't armed for anti-ship attack. They had no armor piercing bombs nor torpedoes.

The Iowas have been reconfigured to mount 32 Tomahawks, by the way, which considerably ups their ante.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:42 PM
 subfixer wrote:

Just as an aside; the 18 escort carriers at Leyte were for covering the amphibious landings and weren't armed for anti-ship attack. They had no armor piercing bombs nor torpedoes.

True, AND STILL they beat off the Japanese BB's...
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Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:48 PM
While it's true that the Japanese capital ships ran off, it was partially due to the torpedo attacks of the DDs in the escort. Also, the Japanese didn't know that the aircraft were not carrying armor piercing bombs, they just knew that there were a lot of them and that they were relentless. Who knows, maybe they thought that they were from Halsey's task force.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by rabbiteatsnake on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:17 AM
 KevM wrote:
Hey Rabbiteatsnake  any headway on the build yet?The pics I have seen of the built one's look really good.
Oh hey thanks for asking, yeah got the eduard PE kit so I've assembled the hull and upper deck.  Then I'm taking each level of the superstructure and bridge etc and leaving them seperate.  This to accomodate the Baltic trials camo paint, meanwhile a lot of shaving, sanding and filing off all the detail the PE's going to replace.   As for the debate, I truly feel that the battleships importance was a boondoggle. With the exception of Jutland and a few rare cases, the national pride/ debt and strategic significance tied up in battleships, was just not justifiable.  A battle cruiser or even a pocket battleship would have done as well, without the tremendous use of resources.
The devil is in the details...and somtimes he's in my sock drawer. On the bench. Airfix 1/24 bf109E scratch conv to 109 G14AS MPC1/24 ju87B conv to 87G Rev 1/48 B17G toF Trump 1/32 f4u-1D and staying a1D Scratch 1/16 TigerII.
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Posted by 1st_combat_comm on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:23 AM

I think the battleship has a great place within even todays navy, and that place is with the marines. These guys are expected to conduct amphibous assaults on beaches. This event has occured in Somalia and Iraq (at least twice publicly). Now I conceed that both landings were unopposed unless you count CNN Grumpy [|(] but suppose that was a different story. An Iowa even just with guns would make a good fire support platform. 9 big guns plus her batteries of 5 inchers? Can't get that kind of firepower out of todays crusiers and destroyers. Add the cruise missle upgrade and your looking at every marines wet dream.

As far as the Bismarck I have been working on one for at least three years now. Three things have conspired against me:

  • Going through a divorce
  • Moving twice
  • and trying to get a good wood color on that stupid deck!!!

I have overcome the first two!!!! Big Smile [:D]

 

Rich

 

Rich 1st Combat Communications Squadron Alummi Air Traffic Control And Landing Shop
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:37 AM
 subfixer wrote:
Who knows, maybe they thought that they were from Halsey's task force.
...which was comprised of what??? Carriers ! So they were afraid it was the fleet carriers...I see...
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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:40 AM
Yup, I'm not going to continue the battleship vs carrier debate any more, as I have said my piece on the subject.  As for the Bismarck as a model, I really think it epitomises the whole German 'style' of warship construction, and as such, is a splendid bit of design (and I really like the Prinz Eugen for the same reasons!).  Each nation built their ships with quite distinctive national characteristics, and I like each for different reasons, but nothing says 'serious business at sea' like the Bismarck!'
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Posted by DerOberst on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 7:11 AM

One final thought on the debate:

The issue here seems to turn on the word 'obsolete'.

Manny seems to be saying that BB's were obsolete in the sense that they were no longer the primary capital ships of the navy, and were not able to fulfill the same role that they had in the past.  Plus the often tentative handling of the ships limited their utility even further. I don't think he is arguing that they should have been melted down for razor blades in 1941. But their role was definately diminished with the introduction of the fleet carrier.

Searat and other seem to be saying that BB's were not obsolete because they ably fulfilled a different role in the fleet and remained very dangerous and valuable ships.  I don't think they are arguing that BB's retained their former role as the primary striking arm of the fleet.  And there are probably a few panzers-at-Dunkirk scenarios where more aggressive handling of BB's might have made for a different outcome.

So it seems we are in vigorous agreement in large part.

N'est pas? 

 

 

 

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:20 AM

That's pretty much correct, with one exception.... If there had simply been as many battleships around in WW2 as there was in WW1, you would have seen battleships used as intended and as designed, in squadrons, squaring off against other squadrons, with carriers forming a very useful adjunct, but not so much THE capital ship as they in fact turned out to be.  As for the 'panzers-at-Dunkirk' scenario, it is important to remember the crucial role played by battleships at Normandy, and for quite some time afterwards in the drive across France, breaking up panzer columns and assembly points, and generally making life a misery for the Germans... And much the same happened at Anzio in Italy as well... In other words, it wasn't the role that was diminished, or the battleships ability to fill that role per se, but that there simply were not enough around to fill it (just like there is a role for a tank battalion.  But if you only have a platoon of tanks, you can't expect that platoon to function, or have the same impact as a tank battalion, nor can you claim that because the tank platoon can't fill the role of the tank battalion, that somehow tanks as a whole are 'obsolete').

Verstehen?

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:47 AM
 searat12 wrote:

That's pretty much correct, with one exception.... If there had simply been as many battleships around in WW2 as there was in WW1, you would have seen battleships used as intended and as designed, in squadrons, squaring off against other squadrons, with carriers forming a very useful adjunct, but not so much THE capital ship as they in fact turned out to be.  As for the 'panzers-at-Dunkirk' scenario, it is important to remember the crucial role played by battleships at Normandy, and for quite some time afterwards in the drive across France, breaking up panzer columns and assembly points, and generally making life a misery for the Germans... And much the same happened at Anzio in Italy as well... In other words, it wasn't the role that was diminished, or the battleships ability to fill that role per se, but that there simply were not enough around to fill it (just like there is a role for a tank battalion.  But if you only have a platoon of tanks, you can't expect that platoon to function, or have the same impact as a tank battalion, nor can you claim that because the tank platoon can't fill the role of the tank battalion, that somehow tanks as a whole are 'obsolete').

Verstehen?

I see your point and agree with you in part as to why there weren't the larger numbers of BB's in WW2 as there was in WW1: treaties, limits, etc...

However, others have pointed out that the existing number of BB's that the British had at the begining of WW2 was already bankrupting the English economy, so I guess we can't have it both ways...thank God for the limitations, otherwise the British may have been totally insolvent and their economy ruined more than it was...

Let's assume though that there were no limitations on tonnage and navies built more BB's...IMO, that would have just meant more targets for airplanes than actually occured in the event...it probably saved lives that there weren't more BB's...

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:32 AM

Yet, no American or British battleships were sunk by aircraft after Pearl Harbor.  Many of them came under intense aircraft attack in the Pacific and Mediterranean, yet none were sunk. A can't think of any that were even so heavily damaged that they couldn't fight, except Pennsylvania.  This fact is due in large part to the heavy and modern AA weapons each carried.  This armament was far superior to that of the Axis navies.

Some might argue that the Allies had control of the air and that Axis aircraft could not get through.  Tell that to the survivors of the radar picket ships, the survivors of the Princeton, or the Franklin.  And, the Axis had air control throughout much of the Mediterranean campaign.  Yet, the battleships successfully fought off many air attacks.

It is an irrelevant issue today. The only navy that operates aircraft carriers in number is the U.S. Navy. Again, most navies center their offensive capabilities on ships that carry missiles. There are several arguments for this.  Carriers have become prohibitively expensive to maintain and operate. Additionally, why waste pilot's lives when a saturation attack by missiles can be just as effective?  In other words, carriers are no longer the threat to surface operations.  The situation is far different than in 1939, when the Japanese , Americans, and British had powerful carrier fleets.

Given the technological shift towards missile capable ships and the relative decline of naval airpower, building a durable, stout modern battleship makes sense. Also, given that strategic ****** to littoral warfare, having ships with powerful gun armament makes sense.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by DerOberst on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:59 AM

 

Admiral Rickover just stopped in.

He wants you to know that nuclear submarines are in fact the new capital ships of the navy, and both carriers are BB's are nothing but expensive targets.

(for those of you who are wondering, Rickover looks good. In fact, he was positively glowing.)

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:15 AM

Speaking as a retired Submariner, you just won my heart! But they, too, have their limitations.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:40 AM
 warshipguy wrote:

Yet, no American or British battleships were sunk by aircraft after Pearl Harbor. 

Prince of Wales and Repulse???

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:55 AM
This thread has been a true blast to read. Obviously, there is much love for the battleship.
I still believe the aircraft carrier and the ballistic missile submarine are the top dogs of the modern sea force but they do need their supporting cast to perform at their best.
Warfare evolves and certain designs fall by the wayside. That does not diminish what they once were, it just means that the needs of commanders have changed and newer weapons have emerged that fill those needs to a better degree.
There can be no doubt, if another "hot spot" flares up in the world tomorrow, President Obama is not going to ask "Where are the battleships"?, his first question is going to be: "Where is the nearest carrier"?

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:58 PM

I stand corrected. But, it in no way changes my basic point of view. One can equally argue that, by sinking HMS Glorious, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau proved the superiority of battleships over carriers. But, that would be preposterous.

Neither PoW or Repulse had updated AA weapons or fire control that were later fitted to Allied battleships.  I will restate that no Allied battleship was lost to airpower after December, 1941.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:38 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

I stand corrected. But, it in no way changes my basic point of view. One can equally argue that, by sinking HMS Glorious, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau proved the superiority of battleships over carriers. But, that would be preposterous.

Neither PoW or Repulse had updated AA weapons or fire control that were later fitted to Allied battleships.  I will restate that no Allied battleship was lost to airpower after December, 1941.

Bill Morrison

A lot of that is because the flat-tops became the prime targets...there are tons of instances in WW2 where Japanese planes overflew BB's and other vessels as they fought their way to the carriers...

...that's also why the CA was always in the center of battlegroups--they were the prime target, because they posed the biggest threat to other surface vessels... 

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:54 PM

 PaintsWithBrush wrote:
This thread has been a true blast to read. Obviously, there is much love for the battleship.
I still believe the aircraft carrier and the ballistic missile submarine are the top dogs of the modern sea force but they do need their supporting cast to perform at their best.
Warfare evolves and certain designs fall by the wayside. That does not diminish what they once were, it just means that the needs of commanders have changed and newer weapons have emerged that fill those needs to a better degree.
There can be no doubt, if another "hot spot" flares up in the world tomorrow, President Obama is not going to ask "Where are the battleships"?, his first question is going to be: "Where is the nearest carrier"?
Well, that is true, the submarine and aircraft carrier are the current 'top dogs' of the modern seaforce, but again, that is because there are no battleships in service.  For the same reason, Obama will of course ask for the nearest carrier in the event of a hotspot, because that is what is available NOW (though back in the 80's, the battleships were called on to Middle East service several times, cruising off the coast of Lebanon, and Libya, and the Persian Gulf too.).  And the Marines and other US forces in the area were very happy to have them do so, as those big guns and missiles suddenly showing up either offshore, or in the harbor is something that EVERYONE takes notice of, and as was clearly demonstrated in Kuwait, and in Baghdad, for very good reason! 

Really, this is something like the old 'chicken and egg' scenario.  The biggest reason the existing battleships are no longer in service is not that they can't 'do the job,' but because they were designed in the 1930's, were completed in the '40's, and that is some 60 years worth of wear and tear and an awful lot of of miles under the keels, and the cost of replacing the engines and upgrading other systems was prohibitive in the post Cold-War environment (just like after 'the war to end all wars,' with much the same result).  At the same time the battleships were taken out of commission, several armored and mech infantry divisions were also demobilized, but with no talk of them being in any way 'outmoded.' 

Can you imagine any submarine remaining in the first rank after 60 years?  Or a carrier, or any of its aircraft, or any other weapon system?  Yet with comparatively small modifications, the battleships have managed to do so, always rising to the needs and technology of the moment. 

And once again, the technology to build replacement battleships no longer exists, not in the US, not anywhere.   And since no other nation has the wherewithall to either challenge the US Navy for supremacy at sea, or the technology to do so either, why try to resurrect what has for the moment become a 'redundant weapon system?'  I will say one thing though, if another navy DOES eventually make a bid to challenge the US (say, the Chinese or a resurgent Russia), it would not at all surprise me to see the old battleships dragged out of their berths and upgraded once again (it has happened three times in the last 60 years!).  Why?  Because there isn't anything else like them, no-one else can build them, and thus, there is no opposing military 'answer' to their existence if they showed up all of a sudden-like, and for that reason alone, they constitute a wonderful 'ace in the hole' for the US Navy that no-one else can match....

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:15 PM
 searat12 wrote:

 PaintsWithBrush wrote:
This thread has been a true blast to read. Obviously, there is much love for the battleship.
I still believe the aircraft carrier and the ballistic missile submarine are the top dogs of the modern sea force but they do need their supporting cast to perform at their best.
Warfare evolves and certain designs fall by the wayside. That does not diminish what they once were, it just means that the needs of commanders have changed and newer weapons have emerged that fill those needs to a better degree.
There can be no doubt, if another "hot spot" flares up in the world tomorrow, President Obama is not going to ask "Where are the battleships"?, his first question is going to be: "Where is the nearest carrier"?
Well, that is true, the submarine and aircraft carrier are the current 'top dogs' of the modern seaforce, but again, that is because there are no battleships in service.  For the same reason, Obama will of course ask for the nearest carrier in the event of a hotspot, because that is what is available NOW (though back in the 80's, the battleships were called on to Middle East service several times, cruising off the coast of Lebanon, and Libya, and the Persian Gulf too.).  And the Marines and other US forces in the area were very happy to have them do so, as those big guns and missiles suddenly showing up either offshore, or in the harbor is something that EVERYONE takes notice of, and as was clearly demonstrated in Kuwait, and in Baghdad, for very good reason! 

Really, this is something like the old 'chicken and egg' scenario.  The biggest reason the existing battleships are no longer in service is not that they can't 'do the job,' but because they were designed in the 1930's, were completed in the '40's, and that is some 60 years worth of wear and tear and an awful lot of of miles under the keels, and the cost of replacing the engines and upgrading other systems was prohibitive in the post Cold-War environment (just like after 'the war to end all wars,' with much the same result).  At the same time the battleships were taken out of commission, several armored and mech infantry divisions were also demobilized, but with no talk of them being in any way 'outmoded.' 

Can you imagine any submarine remaining in the first rank after 60 years?  Or a carrier, or any of its aircraft, or any other weapon system?  Yet with comparatively small modifications, the battleships have managed to do so, always rising to the needs and technology of the moment. 

And once again, the technology to build replacement battleships no longer exists, not in the US, not anywhere.   And since no other nation has the wherewithall to either challenge the US Navy for supremacy at sea, or the technology to do so either, why try to resurrect what has for the moment become a 'redundant weapon system?'  I will say one thing though, if another navy DOES eventually make a bid to challenge the US (say, the Chinese or a resurgent Russia), it would not at all surprise me to see the old battleships dragged out of their berths and upgraded once again (it has happened three times in the last 60 years!).  Why?  Because there isn't anything else like them, no-one else can build them, and thus, there is no opposing military 'answer' to their existence if they showed up all of a sudden-like, and for that reason alone, they constitute a wonderful 'ace in the hole' for the US Navy that no-one else can match....

The Navy has bent over backwards to make a place for the sole BB to remain in service, IMO---and becuase, IMO, the sentimentality factor plays into it...

I mean, are we to believe that the carrier just stumbled into the position it is in today by accident...If you remember, in the 20's, Billy Mitchell was COURT MARTIALED for daring to challenge the supremecy of the BB.  Every Admiral wanted him drummed out of the service in disgrace (or worse)...that's because, as many in this Forum believe, that the BB was, and always would be, the King of the seas....history proved Billy right and despite all of the resistance, airpower (and hence the carrier) won out...not because it was more favored, but because it was the superior weapon... 

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Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:10 PM

Manny,

We keep harping on the carrier/battleship question when there is no question.  Nobody here has claimed that battleships are better than carriers, only that they could still have a serious role.  There are scenarios in the littoral environment where carrier-based aircraft are not as well suited as battleships.  The Marines have long held this view, as an earlier post pointed out. Politically, though nobody wants to pay for them.  Why do you think that the USN has been pared down to 12 carriers? Congress does not like paying  for them, either.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:02 PM
Actually, 'stumbled into it' is just about right!
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:18 PM
 searat12 wrote:
Actually, 'stumbled into it' is just about right!
Nice try...lol...I'm not biting...Wink [;)]
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Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:02 AM

In the Atlantic, the fleet carrier never truly assumed the dominant role in WWII, they worked in concert with battleships in the roles envisaged pre war by most naval staffs that had carriers. As pointed out previously, battleships were crucial at Casablanca, Sicily, Salerno, and Normandy to getting the force ashore and then breaking up counterattacks against the beach head.

In the Pacific, the carrier assumed the primary role mainy thru the removal of the US Pacific Fleet battle line at Pearl Harbor. The US was forced to improvise and rely upon the untried concept of the carrier being the primary weapon. Both US and Japanese war plans had been predicated upon their battle lines engaging one another with carriers in support. At Guadalcanal, the closest that the Japanese came to overpowering the US forces was when their battleships bombarded Henderson and destryed nearly every aircraft there and most of thier aviation fuel. Had their Army been in position to launch their offensive to capitalize upon this, the outcome may have been very different. While land based air power would quickly dominate battleships at sea if they were within striking range, it was not until Leyte Gulf in late 44 that carier airpower would dominate a battleship at sea.

In the postwar era, naval gunfire from battleships has proven invaluable time and again against hostile forces, Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, and Kuwait.

While the battleship may not be top dog anymore, it still has plenty of fight left in it and a role to play in today's naval operations if the need for forced entry against a hostile shoreline rises again.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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Posted by bondoman on Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:23 AM

This conversation has gotten a little silly. Stik, with all due respect, here's a paradigm.

Question from me: Fatherinlaw where were you on D Day 44?

Answer: we bombed the hell out of the germans in France from mid May on, in the south. made them think an invasion was coming from the med.

BBs off Normandy. Please.

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:00 AM

While shore bombardment in prep for seaborne landings was common in WW2, it proved to almost always fall short of expectations.  The inquisitive armchair historian can cite several references to the general ineffectivess of it in most cases.  There was Tarawa where the shells mostly skipped across the island and exploded on the other side, or the instances, like Iwo Jima, where it actually affected the Japanese defenses in no appreciable way, etc. etc. etc.

...It was good for morale, however, to see those big gun firing on the way in, but when the ramp dropped down and the enemy MG's opened up---that had to be a let-down...

The only "true" and measurable success of this shore, IMO, that I have studied was at Normandy.  Ships, of all types, could range in almost through August to some German positions because they were so close to the beaches...there was the specific example where naval gunfire hit the HQ of the 12th SS "Hitlerjugend" Division on June 13th and killed the CO (Fritz Witt) and several key staff officers...Kurt "panzer" Meyer then took over the Division...Of course, Allied air-power was also taking care of business... 

The ironic thing is that BB's were adapted to fill that role and were never designed specifically for it...they were designed to fight other BB's, but the rarity of surface-to-surface actions relegated them to offshore "artillery support"... 

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Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:29 PM
 bondoman wrote:

This conversation has gotten a little silly. Stik, with all due respect, here's a paradigm.

Question from me: Fatherinlaw where were you on D Day 44?

Answer: we bombed the hell out of the germans in France from mid May on, in the south. made them think an invasion was coming from the med.

BBs off Normandy. Please.

????????Confused [%-)]

I've been following this debate for the last few days and have to say it is quite entertaining.  Manny, you do a nice job fending off the attacks of these guys - you are kinda off on an island in this thing.

That being said, I gotta say, I'm with Warshipguy and Searat on this one - true, the role of the battleship evolved in WWII and beyond - however to suggest they were obsolete by the end of the war is, IMO, mistaken.  They provided valuable service (for the US) right up through the first Gulf War and would continue to do so if, as searat pointed out, their cost was not so prohibitive...

Alright, I've said my piece - at the bell, come out of your respective corners fighting - but lets keep it clean gentlemen...

LETSSSSSS GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:08 PM
 bbrowniii wrote:
 bondoman wrote:

This conversation has gotten a little silly. Stik, with all due respect, here's a paradigm.

Question from me: Fatherinlaw where were you on D Day 44?

Answer: we bombed the hell out of the germans in France from mid May on, in the south. made them think an invasion was coming from the med.

BBs off Normandy. Please.

????????Confused [%-)]

I've been following this debate for the last few days and have to say it is quite entertaining.  Manny, you do a nice job fending off the attacks of these guys - you are kinda off on an island in this thing.

That being said, I gotta say, I'm with Warshipguy and Searat on this one - true, the role of the battleship evolved in WWII and beyond - however to suggest they were obsolete by the end of the war is, IMO, mistaken.  They provided valuable service (for the US) right up through the first Gulf War and would continue to do so if, as searat pointed out, their cost was not so prohibitive...

Alright, I've said my piece - at the bell, come out of your respective corners fighting - but lets keep it clean gentlemen...

LETSSSSSS GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

I wouldn't say that I'm alone on this. Many have chimed in one post and not got back in the "ring".  It is convential and common knowledge that air power/carriers made the BB obsolete, for the most part...otherwise, we'd be commisioning BB's today instead of carriers...

I never wrote that a BB was useless, but whoever contends that battleships played a more important or superior role than carriers did during WW2, or after, are at odds with history and every piece of literature and expert opinion that is out there...and all the guys in here know that...

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:23 PM
In response to bbrowniii,
I have found Manstein's revenge's points to be valid across the board. When the Japanese came to Pearl Harbor, it was not with a squadron of battleships, it was with aircraft carriers. Their highest priority targets? American aircraft carriers. I don't see Yamamoto doing cartwheels around his planning table upon learning that not a single American carrier was sunk but "at least we got the battleships".
When the Japanese sortied their 4 carriers to Midway, it was not with the intention of drawing the American battleships into an ambush, they wanted to destroy the targets they considered to be of gravest threat to them: American aircraft carriers.
When the Americans, haven broken the Japanese code thus knowing what was up, responded, it was not with a squadron of battleships, it was with aircraft carriers.
After the losing all four of the carriers committed to Midway, the Japanese were effectively defeated.
Every historian regards Midway as the turning point of he war. If the battleship were the still the powerhouse as has been asserted by several here, then Yamato and her sister ship (whose name escapes me) would have stepped to the front and brushed aside these pretenders to their crown.
The battleship has been defended eloquently here. The admirals Manstein's revenge sites in his previous posting would applaud your efforts but one fact is utterly inescapable: The mighty Bismark was rendered impotent by an antiquated Swordfish bi-plane that barely ran over 100mph.
The battlewagons were allowed to finish Bismark off just as "a point of honor".
At the risk of offending the ship crowd, air power rules.(wink)

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:35 PM

Bondo, I don't quite understand what you mean here, but no worries. I presume that your father in law was on a BB off Southern France at the time of the Normandy landings? But if IIRC, there were  three US BBs and several RN ones also on June 6th, for a total of 7 (according to http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/comnaveu/comnaveu-8.htm#part2 ) off of Normandy. It is interesting to read the German remarks about naval gunfire in its' effect upon their forces, and its' comparison with tactical airpower.

Manny is quite correct in saying that two shore bombardments in the Pacific in particular were notable for their lack of neutralizing enemy defences, Iwo Jima, and Tarawa. However, they did cause some damage and had their firepower not been there at all, are subject to much "what if" speculation as to the effect of their bombardments. Additionally, at Tarawa, much was learned about the necessity for a precision, extended shore bombadment that was put to good use in the following Marshalls and Marianas campaigns. At Iwo, it has been documented how a longer period of preperatory bombardment (one full week as opposed to three days) was requested to reduce Japanese defenses. And proponents of airpower can take note that Iwo was also subjected to over 70 days of aerial bombing by heavy bombers in addtion to the three days of naval gunfire and carrier air strikes before the first Marine even set foot on shore. This gives an idea of the stoutness of the defensive postions constructed there by the Japanese.

Again, I dont think the Battleship was obsolete, only that it's role had changed. The carrier and the battleship complement one another.

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:45 PM

 bbrowniii wrote:

That being said, I gotta say, I'm with Warshipguy and Searat on this one - true, the role of the battleship evolved in WWII and beyond - however to suggest they were obsolete by the end of the war is, IMO, mistaken.  They provided valuable service (for the US) right up through the first Gulf War and would continue to do so if, as searat pointed out, their cost was not so prohibitive...

In fact, it would be cheaper to operate a battleship than a modern carrier with its compliment of aircraft...
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Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:29 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

 bbrowniii wrote:

That being said, I gotta say, I'm with Warshipguy and Searat on this one - true, the role of the battleship evolved in WWII and beyond - however to suggest they were obsolete by the end of the war is, IMO, mistaken.  They provided valuable service (for the US) right up through the first Gulf War and would continue to do so if, as searat pointed out, their cost was not so prohibitive...

In fact, it would be cheaper to operate a battleship than a modern carrier with its compliment of aircraft...

True, you'll get no argument from me that the carrier definately fills a broader spectrum of missions and, as a result of the range of its aircraft, can project power in a way that a BB no longer can.  For that reason, the expense of the carrier is acceptable, whereas the expense of a BB is a bit of a 'luxury'...

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:37 PM

I'm still a little concerned that this is evolving into an "either/or" issue between battleships and carriers.  I don't know of anyone who claims that battleships are superior (whatever that means) to carriers.  I will say it again and again . . . carriers replaced battleships as the main striking force of naval power because they can hit farther and faster.  BUT, the role of the battleship evolved dramatically during WWII and battleships proved that they were well suited for roles that carrier air power can fulfill less well.

Now, technology seems to have shifted again.  Cruise missiles onboard warships mean that even a destroyer can inflict serious damage on a distant enemy without loss of personnel and valuable aircraft.  Any carrier operations against an enemy results in pilots being shot down.  In today's political environment, these losses are unacceptable.  Captured pilots means political fallout and a propaganda coup for the enemy.  Cruise missiles can inflict similar damage without such loss.  Why not just simply use destroyers for this role?  HMS Sheffield showed why when she was sunk by a single Exocet that didn't even explode.  A heavily armored ship such as a battleship would have probably shaken that missile off and survived with its offensive capabilities intact. The subsequent discussion about survival in a nuclear environment is actually irrelevant; navies do not use nuclear weapons in tactical situations with other ships.

Also, don't forget that the Marine Corps has long lamented the decommissioning of the Iowa's.  Those professionals recognize the value of those 16" guns; I wonder if we have the same level of expertise to criticize their point of view.

Finally, it seems that we have digressed from the reasons find the Bismarck an attractive build, taking it to discussing whether or not battleships were husbanded during WWII. Even Manny said that they were not, clarifying his comment to say that he meant they were in WWI after Jutland but not in WWII.  He then went on to say that they were husbanded in WWII, the contradiction being very clear. We then went to possible modern uses of this type of warship, to nuclear weaponry (which has little use in a naval war) to the battleship vs. carrier controversy.

To readdress the issue of "husbanded" . . . the meaning of the word is that battleships were held back from fighting and were not used.  The fact the the Germans forward deployed their capital ships meant that they were NOT husbanded as Manny asserts.  Germany did lose three of the in ship-to-ship engagements, meaning that they were actually deployed on wartime cruises.  If they were husbanded, they would have remained back in the relatively safe Baltic.  But, the only time they returned to the Baltic was when they suffered damage and had to be repaired. Even Tirpitz was forward deployed in Norway, returning to Germany only to undergo repairs.

British and American battleships were decidedly NOT husbanded, being actively engaged throughout the war.  We've already discussed the Italians and the French; only the Japanese husbanded their battleships.  I fail to see how anyone can say otherwise.  The facts are only too clear that battleships were, in fact, heavily used throughout the war.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by searat12 on Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:27 PM
True!  I will say this, given the current situation in Korea, I just bet Obama WISHED he had a battleship readily available to deploy there, as a carrier is just too vulnerable given the NKorean missile inventory, and as I have said many times, the Marines have always been big fans of the battleship as well (the ability to TAKE a punch, as well as dish one out is something the Navy has lost as a virtue a long time ago)!  Yes, the battleship and the aircraft carrier complement each other very well, given an intensive naval warfare environment, the likes of which has not existed since WW2.  The battleship is designed for war and intimidation, and not much else, while the carrier can conduct all sorts of other operations, as well as 'power projection.'  Personally, in these times I like the Marine Amphibious Assault ships like USS Tarawa better than either!  I have always felt it too bad that the Marines always get the short end of the stick with Naval funding..... Some time ago, Obama was talking about increasing the size of the Army by about 60,000 troops.... It would be even MORE effective if they built another Marine Division!
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Posted by subfixer on Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:48 PM

I will submit this vessel for consideration as a badazz:

It's an Ohio class SSGN. 22 of the 24 missile tubes carry 7 Tomahawks each for a total of 154 missiles. That is about the same as an entire surface action group. The other two tubes are utilized for the 60 SEAL Team members that may be carried. These boats also carry their nominal 24 torpedoes forward. These boats are super quiet.

We won't go into the SSBNs as they are really scary creatures.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by bondoman on Friday, May 29, 2009 12:02 AM
Could Japan have attacked Pearl Harbor with battleships instead of carriers? And if so, can we wargame the results?
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Posted by bondoman on Friday, May 29, 2009 12:13 AM
 subfixer wrote:

I will submit this vessel for consideration as a badazz:

It's an Ohio class SSGN. 22 of the 24 missile tubes carry 7 Tomahawks each for a total of 154 missiles. That is about the same as an entire surface action group. The other two tubes are utilized for the 60 SEAL Team members that may be carried. These boats also carry their nominal 24 torpedoes forward. These boats are super quiet.

We won't go into the SSBNs as they are really scary creatures.

My moms college roomates husband, who became a close person family friend, gave me a signed 8x10 of the Nautilus with his sig as XO. Took it to school in second grade for show and tell, some jerk kid stole it at lunch. We visited them in 1959 at Pearl Harbor- I have no idea what boat he was assigned to, but he took my dad out on a comissioning cruise and they sank themselves by flooding the forward torpedo room. Dad sat in the wardroom for four hours until it was sorted out and they surfaced. Never ever told Mom the story.

Jim Bush died last year. He was a good friend of ours and someone I respected as he took on the industrial establishment late in life. His home in Newport News was always open to us and I spent several summers there. Hot, damn hot but they were gentele people. I would forever tip my hat to the silent service.

 

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Posted by subfixer on Friday, May 29, 2009 3:05 AM

In a bar in Groton, Connecticut, (the Groton Motor Inn) there is an original nautical chart with the track of the Nautilus's route under the Arctic Ocean during its maiden voyage. It is signed by the entire original crew. The leading quartermaster (retired, of course) of that crew just about lived at that bar and loved to tell anyone who cared to listen, all about that boat. Talk about something you'd like to steal, that chart really needs to be in a museum.

That sucks that your photo was stolen, bondoman. I can sympathize with you, though. I had the medical department daily log from the assault and occupation of Kwajalein that I rescued from a trash pile at the Naval Hospital archive on Guam. I let one of the yayhoos at work borrow it to show his brother and never saw it again.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 29, 2009 7:10 AM
 subfixer wrote:

That sucks that your photo was stolen, bondoman. I can sympathize with you, though. I had the medical department daily log from the assault and occupation of Kwajalein that I rescued from a trash pile at the Naval Hospital archive on Guam. I let one of the yayhoos at work borrow it to show his brother and never saw it again.

No good deed goes unpunished...
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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Friday, May 29, 2009 10:03 AM
 subfixer wrote:

I will submit this vessel for consideration as a badazz:

It's an Ohio class SSGN. 22 of the 24 missile tubes carry 7 Tomahawks each for a total of 154 missiles. That is about the same as an entire surface action group. The other two tubes are utilized for the 60 SEAL Team members that may be carried. These boats also carry their nominal 24 torpedoes forward. These boats are super quiet.

We won't go into the SSBNs as they are really scary creatures.

Right on, subfixer. Most badazz indeed. That's why I included them in my inventory of "Top Dogs".
Also, to the point of the current situation in Korea, I don't know what a battleship would do to the psyche of Lil Kim, but the thought of that ballistic missile submarine lurking in the neighborhood is what will keep that little narcissist in his place.
He likes to bluster, but he likes living even more and knowing that he (and every other nation for that matter) will never know that "boomers" location is why I for one laugh at his every gesture.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by searat12 on Friday, May 29, 2009 1:03 PM

The problem with submarines for missions like this is precisely because they CAN'T be seen.  There is ALWAYS a submarine near NKorea, but if you don't see it, you can pretend it isn't there.  But a battleship cruising up and down the coast in plain view cannot be dismissed so lightly, and provides undeniable proof of not only the presence of the US Navy, but its relative disregard for anything the NKoreans might care to throw at it.  This was of great value during the crisis in Lebanon, and worked very well in the Persian Gulf too vis a vis the Iranians, and was easpecially true after everybody got to see just what a battleship can unleash.  Even just cruising around firing 'practise' rounds, the thunder of those guns carries a very long way indeed...... Gunboat diplomacy' has been around for many, many years, and the psychological factor still works today.

Just think about a rowdy bar.... a sleazy little weasel with a .32 under his coat sneaks in and hides in a dark corner that no-one notices.  Yeah, he CAN kill somebody by shooting them in the back, but his mere presence there doesn't affect what is going on in the bar (that's a submarine!).  Then, a cop car car pulls up outside with his lights flashing, but as long as the cops stay outside, it doesn't really affect what's going on in the bar (that's an aircraft carrier!).  Then a 300 Lbs linebacker walks into the bar in full body armor and carrying a sawed-off riot-pump 12 gauge shotgun and has a look around.  The place goes silent, the piano stops playing, the card games stop, and suspicious characters start edging for the back door (that's a battleship!)!

As for Pearl Harbor and Midway, Pearl was always going to be a surprise hit and run attack, but at Midway, the Japanese battlefleet WAS there, and its purpose (once the Amrican aircraft carriers had been disabled or destroyed), was to wade in and deal with the American surface fleet 'mano a mano.'  And this might STILL have happened if the Japanese carrier fleet hadn't been so comprehensively destroyed.  If even ONE of the fleet carriers had survived,  Yamamoto was prepared to send in the battleships, but NO carriers, meant they would be heading into a situation they had no advanced preparation or reconaissance for.....

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Friday, May 29, 2009 1:31 PM
searat12,
Considering the fact that just one nuclear missile submarine carries more firepower than every battleship ever built by every nation across the expanse of history, I think the submarine amounts to far more than a "sleazy guy with a .32" in any situation.
Your love of the battleship is truly undeniable, but one F/A18 flying supersonic at treetop level over his palace would create all the "thunder" Lil Kim would need to convince him of the folly of his dreams.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 29, 2009 2:21 PM

Again, as a former submariner, Trident missiles are not usable in most political and military situations. For example, Great Britain had boomers during the Falklands campaign but they did not deter Argentina from invading British Territory.  And, that is a rational nation!  North Korea does not have rational leaders that could be deterred by the implicit threat of nuclear attack or retaliation.

Bill Morrison

P.S. The axiom is that each boomer carries more explosive firepower than expended in every theater of every war in the twentieth century.

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Posted by searat12 on Friday, May 29, 2009 3:12 PM
 PaintsWithBrush wrote:
searat12,
Considering the fact that just one nuclear missile submarine carries more firepower than every battleship ever built by every nation across the expanse of history, I think the submarine amounts to far more than a "sleazy guy with a .32" in any situation.
Your love of the battleship is truly undeniable, but one F/A18 flying supersonic at treetop level over his palace would create all the "thunder" Lil Kim would need to convince him of the folly of his dreams.
It's not so much that I love the battleship, but I think you missed the point.  An FA-18 'flying over the palace' would be a direct act of war, and just his approach into NKorean airpsace would most likely have already caused a war, whether or not he was shot down or not, whether or not he was armed or not.  That's the problem with a carrier!  It cannot sit in plain sight, but must remain 'over the horizon' along with all its aircraft, and it cannot take a hit, or it blows sky high.  A submarine cannot remain on the surface (they are THE most delicate of ships, and it defeats the whole purpose of a submarne in the first place!), and anything else BUT a battleship would be liable to be sunk or made combat ineffective with one hit.  A battleship, however, is designed to be hit, multiple times, and still come up for more, with a counterpunch that would knock most nations on their butt, let alone other naval vessels.  No other ship has this capability.  For this reason, the battleship can sail in sight of land, just offshore, where everyone can see it, a menacing presence that cannot just be slapped down with a single shot.  That is the BIGGEST advantage of a battleship, that no other ship can match, not even the latest greatest of designs.  I think if you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, we don't need any ships at all, and can do everything that is needed via ICBM's launched from Nebraska; isn't that true?
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 29, 2009 3:51 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Again, as a former submariner, Trident missiles are not usable in most political and military situations. For example, Great Britain had boomers during the Falklands campaign but they did not deter Argentina from invading British Territory.  And, that is a rational nation!  North Korea does not have rational leaders that could be deterred by the implicit threat of nuclear attack or retaliation.

Bill Morrison

P.S. The axiom is that each boomer carries more explosive firepower than expended in every theater of every war in the twentieth century.

If only the Hood had still been around...Argentinia would have never dared invade the Falklands...
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Posted by tucchase on Friday, May 29, 2009 4:21 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Also, don't forget that the Marine Corps has long lamented the decommissioning of the Iowa's.  Those professionals recognize the value of those 16" guns; I wonder if we have the same level of expertise to criticize their point of view.

This has been a most interesting discussion! Years ago I read the history of the New Jersey.  It mentioned that when it went to Vietnam it was very successful at doing jobs that the Air Force and Navy Carriers were unable to accomplish.  One specific case was a bridge in North Vietnam located in a narrow canyon and protected by an impressive array of anti-aircraft missles and batteries.  Both Air groups tried for weeks to take out this bridge, with no result other than the loss of several aircraft.  The New Jersey was called in and dropped the bridge into the river in twenty minutes!  The Lady was so successful that when the New Jersey left Vietnam for replenishment at Long Beach the North Vietnamese at the Peace Table said they would leave the Peace Talks and not return if the New Jersey returned to Vietnam!  They did NOT say this about any other warship or military group that we had deployed.  The New Jersey scared the c**p out of the North Vietnamese.  Its big guns could reach 75% of both countries, and it didn't even have Tomahawks back then.  Of course, the wimps we had in power, at that time, caved in and the Lady never went back to Vietnam.  Coulda been a much shorter conflict.  We should have sent the Lady back and added one, or more (wouldn't have cost any more than the war did anyway), of her sisters also.

Searat12's analogy is, IMHO, great.  Except the sleazy little weasel should be a small statured SEAL in a trenchcoat with many weapons hidden.  Doesn't look like much, but he could waste the whole bar in a heartbeat if he needs to.  I agree that the BBs are no longer the "Top Dog", but they ARE uniquely qualified to do certain missions that no other warship is capable of doing.  If they just weren't so gol-darned expensive to operate!  Just wanted to put in my 2 cents into this great discussion.  Meanwhile, what about the model??

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 29, 2009 5:33 PM
 tucchase wrote:
 warshipguy wrote:

Also, don't forget that the Marine Corps has long lamented the decommissioning of the Iowa's.  Those professionals recognize the value of those 16" guns; I wonder if we have the same level of expertise to criticize their point of view.

This has been a most interesting discussion! Years ago I read the history of the New Jersey.  It mentioned that when it went to Vietnam it was very successful at doing jobs that the Air Force and Navy Carriers were unable to accomplish.  One specific case was a bridge in North Vietnam located in a narrow canyon and protected by an impressive array of anti-aircraft missles and batteries.  Both Air groups tried for weeks to take out this bridge, with no result other than the loss of several aircraft.  The New Jersey was called in and dropped the bridge into the river in twenty minutes!  The Lady was so successful that when the New Jersey left Vietnam for replenishment at Long Beach the North Vietnamese at the Peace Table said they would leave the Peace Talks and not return if the New Jersey returned to Vietnam!  They did NOT say this about any other warship or military group that we had deployed.  The New Jersey scared the c**p out of the North Vietnamese.  Its big guns could reach 75% of both countries, and it didn't even have Tomahawks back then.  Of course, the wimps we had in power, at that time, caved in and the Lady never went back to Vietnam.  Coulda been a much shorter conflict.  We should have sent the Lady back and added one, or more (wouldn't have cost any more than the war did anyway), of her sisters also.

Searat12's analogy is, IMHO, great.  Except the sleazy little weasel should be a small statured SEAL in a trenchcoat with many weapons hidden.  Doesn't look like much, but he could waste the whole bar in a heartbeat if he needs to.  I agree that the BBs are no longer the "Top Dog", but they ARE uniquely qualified to do certain missions that no other warship is capable of doing.  If they just weren't so gol-darned expensive to operate!  Just wanted to put in my 2 cents into this great discussion.  Meanwhile, what about the model??

If only we had more BB's we would have won the Vietnam War!!!
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Posted by bondoman on Friday, May 29, 2009 5:56 PM
 tucchase wrote:
 warshipguy wrote:

Also, don't forget that the Marine Corps has long lamented the decommissioning of the Iowa's.  Those professionals recognize the value of those 16" guns; I wonder if we have the same level of expertise to criticize their point of view.

This has been a most interesting discussion! Years ago I read the history of the New Jersey.  It mentioned that when it went to Vietnam it was very successful at doing jobs that the Air Force and Navy Carriers were unable to accomplish.  One specific case was a bridge in North Vietnam located in a narrow canyon and protected by an impressive array of anti-aircraft missles and batteries.  Both Air groups tried for weeks to take out this bridge, with no result other than the loss of several aircraft.  The New Jersey was called in and dropped the bridge into the river in twenty minutes!  The Lady was so successful that when the New Jersey left Vietnam for replenishment at Long Beach the North Vietnamese at the Peace Table said they would leave the Peace Talks and not return if the New Jersey returned to Vietnam!  They did NOT say this about any other warship or military group that we had deployed.  The New Jersey scared the c**p out of the North Vietnamese.  Its big guns could reach 75% of both countries, and it didn't even have Tomahawks back then.  Of course, the wimps we had in power, at that time, caved in and the Lady never went back to Vietnam.  Coulda been a much shorter conflict.  We should have sent the Lady back and added one, or more (wouldn't have cost any more than the war did anyway), of her sisters also.

Searat12's analogy is, IMHO, great.  Except the sleazy little weasel should be a small statured SEAL in a trenchcoat with many weapons hidden.  Doesn't look like much, but he could waste the whole bar in a heartbeat if he needs to.  I agree that the BBs are no longer the "Top Dog", but they ARE uniquely qualified to do certain missions that no other warship is capable of doing.  If they just weren't so gol-darned expensive to operate!  Just wanted to put in my 2 cents into this great discussion.  Meanwhile, what about the model??

Never thought of old Milhouse as a wimp before, I'll have to think on that. I can't find any reference to the bridge story, can you elaborate. It sounds to me like the BB tore up a lot of bunkers and tunnels though.
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Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 29, 2009 7:21 PM

Manny commented tongue-in-cheek that, had Hood been around, Argentina would never have invaded the Falklands.  Make a Toast [#toast]  Granted, it is an overstatement, but one serious problem that the Royal Navy had was that the largest guns it had for shore bombardment were the 5" popguns on its destroyers.  Oh, well, here's to lessons never learned!  Banged Head [banghead]

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 29, 2009 7:42 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny commented tongue-in-cheek that, had Hood been around, Argentina would never have invaded the Falklands.  Make a Toast [#toast]  Granted, it is an overstatement, but one serious problem that the Royal Navy had was that the largest guns it had for shore bombardment were the 5" popguns on its destroyers.  Oh, well, here's to lessons never learned!  Banged Head [banghead]

Bill Morrison

yeah, otherwise Hood could have sat ofshore and shelled the Argentinians into submission, as the US did at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Pelilieu, etc, etc, etc...
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Posted by subfixer on Friday, May 29, 2009 9:06 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny commented tongue-in-cheek that, had Hood been around, Argentina would never have invaded the Falklands.  Make a Toast [#toast]  Granted, it is an overstatement, but one serious problem that the Royal Navy had was that the largest guns it had for shore bombardment were the 5" popguns on its destroyers.  Oh, well, here's to lessons never learned!  Banged Head [banghead]

Bill Morrison

yeah, otherwise Hood could have sat ofshore and shelled the Argentinians into submission, as the US did at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Pelilieu, etc, etc, etc...

Do I detect a slight note of sarcasm, Manny? The Marines did have a terrible time taking those islands, but the Argentinians didn't have the time to dig in like the Japanese did. Big guns would have made a difference in the Falklands, I think. But don't sell five inch guns short, 5" is the equivalent to a 127mm howitzer.

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Posted by bondoman on Friday, May 29, 2009 10:08 PM

Oh gosh people. After the invasion Makin Atoll was hell on earth, smoking palm stumps maybe 3' high, ruined for years. That wasn't going to work in the Falklands, and there was no reason for it. I'm not even that keen on what the New Jersey did to Vietnam, but in the South Atlantic, no way.

Several dozen Harriers got the job done.

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Posted by tucchase on Friday, May 29, 2009 10:24 PM

 warshipguy wrote:
Never thought of old Milhouse as a wimp before, I'll have to think on that. I can't find any reference to the bridge story, can you elaborate. It sounds to me like the BB tore up a lot of bunkers and tunnels though.

Tricky Dicky was OK, but the State Dept and Congress he had to work with left a lot to be desired.  No one wanted to "insult the opposition" (especially USSR and China) so all the branches of the military were effectively handcuffed.  The New Jersey just happened to be one of the most glaring.  It may even have been deployed while Johnson was still in office.  Can you imagine Ronny or either George not taking advantage of the enemy being actually afraid of any particular weapon system?  And no, the BBs would not have magically ended the war, but they would have helped a lot more if they had been allowed to do their job as originally intended when the New Jersey was re-activated.  North Vietnam had absolutely no defense against the New Jersey's plunging pinpoint shellfire.  Except to refuse to negotiate if it went back on duty!  So they played that card and we folded our hand.

As for the reference, it was a book I checked out of the library some 20 to 30 years ago, about the history of the Iowa class BBs.  It was written shortly after the New Jersey was re-mothballed after Vietnam.  It discussed all their actions in WWII, then had another section describing all their actions in Korea. The final chapter was about the New Jersey in Vietnam, since it was the only BB to be re-activated, following Korea, at the time the book was written.  It's probably no longer in print since so much more history has been added to the Iowa Class BBs since then.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 29, 2009 10:33 PM
 subfixer wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny commented tongue-in-cheek that, had Hood been around, Argentina would never have invaded the Falklands.  Make a Toast [#toast]  Granted, it is an overstatement, but one serious problem that the Royal Navy had was that the largest guns it had for shore bombardment were the 5" popguns on its destroyers.  Oh, well, here's to lessons never learned!  Banged Head [banghead]

Bill Morrison

yeah, otherwise Hood could have sat ofshore and shelled the Argentinians into submission, as the US did at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Pelilieu, etc, etc, etc...

Do I detect a slight note of sarcasm, Manny? The Marines did have a terrible time taking those islands, but the Argentinians didn't have the time to dig in like the Japanese did. Big guns would have made a difference in the Falklands, I think. But don't sell five inch guns short, 5" is the equivalent to a 127mm howitzer.

British Paras brought in their own field artillery and had air-support...the only large surface ship (other than the Brit CA's) was an Argentenian Cruiser that didn't fare too well as I recall...
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Posted by bondoman on Saturday, May 30, 2009 12:28 AM

Well, and here IBTL. Yes of course I can imagine George junior totally backing down because that's exactly what he did with No. K. And Ronny sold Hughes AAM's and F-14 parts to the Iranians, so let's not go there, shall we?

Nixon won the Presidency because he portrayed Johnson and of course McGovern as appeasers, which has been the canard hung around the neck of the Democratic Party whenever they have tried to improve the condition of the local working class. But thats just me; end of rant.

Battleships aliterate with a word that also starts with B. In the Falklands campaign, the last engagement of navy units ever, British sub presence negated, and in one case destroyed, both artillery and air wing assets. On the other side, the British suffered all of their losses from air power, that largely had to fly for a while, tracked all the way, but did real damage.

The thought of the heavy artillery reducing, and that is a word in war technology, the defences on the Falklands is laughable. There would still be hearings to this day abt why a bunch of sheep farmers are still buried in mud.

The New Jersey was only really effective in the DMZ zone in Vietnam. There is absolutely no way that those guns would mean anything to Afganistan, most of Pakistan, Iraq, Iran except for their coastal cities, North Korea, China, oh what the heck Andorra, Switzerland...

I give up.

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Posted by bondoman on Saturday, May 30, 2009 12:46 AM
Correctly. And the carrier "25th of May", ex HMS Venerable was forced back into port by the presence of the HMS. Iron Duke, or their subs, can't remember which? So that the Super Etendards had to fly from Rio Grande.

El Jere needs to come in here.

Britain had a Sheffield class destroyer in the ways that had been paid for by Argentina. They quietly pocketed the payment and kept the ship.

I think the Falklands/ Malvinas war is a perfect example of why aircraft are the deciding factor in war over the ocean. The relatively untested Harrier proved that technology trumps tradition.

Now that being said, I would say that the war was truly won by the heroics of the Royal Army, who really toughed it out and with their officers leading and dying, rubbed out the oppossition, NTL the RAF/ RN Air wings really rose to the challenge. And then there's Black Buck, which I've studied for years. That was a true feat.

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Posted by subfixer on Saturday, May 30, 2009 12:56 AM
I remember back in December of 1972 during Linebacker II. We were just off the port of Haiphong about 10 to 15 miles and watching the B-52 strikes and the SAMs and all of that. I think now of how unnecessary that would have been if instead of my carrier, it had been the New Jersey in our place. No loss to aircrews for one thing, I'll bet.

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Posted by bondoman on Saturday, May 30, 2009 1:09 AM

Sure sub, and I respect the loss of the aircrews, but the damage reports from the NJ shelling that I've seen are speculative at best. Charlie was a thin and widely spread force, which could not be knocked out in one big deadly barrage, I seriously doubt that the NV Generals ever were in fear of something that they could see coming.

If anyone ever comes up with a theory abt how we could possibly have "won" that war, I'll rep the book for free. BB is not the answer.

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Posted by subfixer on Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:27 AM

The targets during Linebacker II were infrastructure like power plants, supply centers, port facilities, airfields,SAM sites, and such. They weren't bombing a phantom target but real military targets of a conventional measure.  Linebacker II got the North Vietnamese back to the negotiating table after they had been stalling.

Here is a link to "ye olde" Wikipedia entry on this operation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker_II

I'm just saying that if a battleship (or two) had undertaken this mission that human losses on both sides would have been less. The guns of a BB would have been more accurate and, since the enemy knew what was coming, they could have had a better chance of evacuating personnel out of the target area leaving jus the targets themselves. 

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:04 AM
 subfixer wrote:

I'm just saying that if a battleship (or two) had undertaken this mission that human losses on both sides would have been less. The guns of a BB would have been more accurate and, since the enemy knew what was coming, they could have had a better chance of evacuating personnel out of the target area leaving jus the targets themselves. 

The personnel were the targets...that was the doctrine for most of that war: body-count...
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Posted by ADleitch on Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:11 AM

I really don't understand some of you people, poor guy started what appeared to be a very interesting thread on building and detailing the ROG Bismarck. 130 posts later, 3 posts about the Model 2 of them from the guy his self. 7 pages of nothing to do with the model. Talk about highjacking a thread. I hope the guy starts a new one so we don't have to search through all of this to find it.

 

All started from a tank guy, way to go!!!

Its Better to Burn out than to Fade Away!!!
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 30, 2009 8:13 AM
 ADleitch wrote:

All started from a tank guy, way to go!!!

Now had there been tanks on the Falklands, that would have been a different story...great observation...
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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:08 AM
Actually searat12, you aren't too far from the mark about the "no boats" analogy. Since no one can actually see the submarine, how would they know if there were none there? (wink)
I liken the submarine to the following analogy:
You are driving along a 3:00 am, the traffic signal before you changes from green to red. You stop. As you sit there, you look around and see no other cars in sight. The red light drags on. You are wondering o yourself "why did the light even change, there were no cars to trigger it"? but still you sit. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the light changes and you return to your travels.
Now, why did you stop in the first place? And better still, why did you sit there for the full duration of the light? There were no police cars around. Why didn't you just run the light and continue on your way?
You sat there because, just because you didn't SEE the police car, doesn't mean there might not be one there that you COULDN'T see. It was the fear of he unknown that kept you in line. Just like the submarine.
And that was just a simple traffic light scenario. The police are not everywhere at every moment of every day, but the thought that just because you can't see them doesn't mean they can't make their presence felt. That it why we live in a (reasonably) orderly society.
And to respond to ADleitch: rabbiteatsnake doesn't seem to mind how things are going, at least he has made no objections.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by subfixer on Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:15 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 subfixer wrote:

I'm just saying that if a battleship (or two) had undertaken this mission that human losses on both sides would have been less. The guns of a BB would have been more accurate and, since the enemy knew what was coming, they could have had a better chance of evacuating personnel out of the target area leaving jus the targets themselves. 

The personnel were the targets...that was the doctrine for most of that war: body-count...

Not in this particular operation, Manny. This wasn't a tactical operation per se. A month and a half later we were more or less done with Vietnam.

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Posted by bondoman on Saturday, May 30, 2009 5:24 PM
 subfixer wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 subfixer wrote:

I'm just saying that if a battleship (or two) had undertaken this mission that human losses on both sides would have been less. The guns of a BB would have been more accurate and, since the enemy knew what was coming, they could have had a better chance of evacuating personnel out of the target area leaving jus the targets themselves. 

The personnel were the targets...that was the doctrine for most of that war: body-count...

Not in this particular operation, Manny. This wasn't a tactical operation per se. A month and a half later we were more or less done with Vietnam.

Wait, I'm lost. We're talking about the NJ, correct, and to the question of Hijacking the thread, I apologize to the original poster. The NJ tour of duty was late 1968 through spring 69, correct? I got drafted in 74, although no one had been called up for a couple of years.
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Posted by searat12 on Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:17 PM
I tell you what;.... Name ANY weapon system besides a battleship, that can RECEIVE 6 x 1000 Lbs hits of explosive (I don't care how it is delivered, bomb, shell, torpedo, missile, etc.), and still be be 'combat effective;' just ONE, whether it is a submarine, a carrier, whatever..... If you can name ONE, then I will say the Battleship is 'obsolete'.  If not, then there is nothing else to say, the battleship wins!! 
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:05 PM
 searat12 wrote:
I tell you what;.... Name ANY weapon system besides a battleship, that can RECEIVE 6 x 1000 Lbs hits of explosive (I don't care how it is delivered, bomb, shell, torpedo, missile, etc.), and still be be 'combat effective;' just ONE, whether it is a submarine, a carrier, whatever..... If you can name ONE, then I will say the Battleship is 'obsolete'.  If not, then there is nothing else to say, the battleship wins!! 
...wins what? I don't understand...BB's have been sunk with less than what you are describing, and some carriers, like the Franklin, survived terrible damage...
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Posted by bondoman on Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:55 PM

Oh thats easy, Searat. 16 A4 Skyhawks incoming towards your big steel drainplug with 4000 pounds of iron bombs each, dispersed across 3 miles of water and staggered in 30 second intervals. Flying at maybe 500 knots, one man/woman each, from all points of the compass, which means that a barely subsonic B-24 will peel in on you more or less unstoppable every 3 seconds, for several minutes, from god knows where. And that's 1965 technology. But so am I, so it's hard to speculate forward.

That qualifies as a weapons system, no?

So to answer your question, you can't bomb, shell or torpedo my Scooters, just shoot them down, which isn't going to happen with your Gatling guns, and I'm not even suggesting the truly lethals, on my end.

Tally Ho dude, here comes the Navy Air Wing.

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Posted by subfixer on Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:36 AM

 searat12 wrote:
I tell you what;.... Name ANY weapon system besides a battleship, that can RECEIVE 6 x 1000 Lbs hits of explosive (I don't care how it is delivered, bomb, shell, torpedo, missile, etc.), and still be be 'combat effective;' just ONE, whether it is a submarine, a carrier, whatever..... If you can name ONE, then I will say the Battleship is 'obsolete'.  If not, then there is nothing else to say, the battleship wins!! 

How'za 'bout a missile silo??

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:14 AM
The battleship wins? Check the scorecard. Swordfish:1, Bismark:0
How many battleships have been constructed since the end of WWII?
How many aircraft carriers and submarines have been constructed?
Seems the governments and militaries of the world have spoken.
The third dimension of the battlefield has been deemed to be of highest priority. That is the realm of the aircraft and the missile.

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Posted by searat12 on Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:35 PM
There, ya see?  Other than the hardened missile silo in Nebraska, nobody has come up with a weapon system that can take 6 x 1000 Lbs hits and still keep fighting, and that's kinda the point.  I have already discussed why no-one has built any battleships since WW2 elsewhere in this thread, and won't go into it again.  As for the Bismark (Oh yeah!  That's what this thread is supposed to be about!), yes, it was hit by one torpedo from a Swordfish.  But before that, it had been hit be several 14" shells from the POW, had sunk the Hood, and was all by itself.  And after the torpedo hit, the ship didn't sink, it was unsteerable (one of the bad points of German battleship design were the exposed rudders), but it took HMS Rodney, the KGV, several cruisers and destyroyers the best part of a day shelling and torpedoing the thing before it finally went down, and that was while it was essentially defenseless because it couldn't aim its guns while slewing all over the ocean!  The Swordfish's single torpedo was merely the catalyst for the destruction of the Bismarck, not the cause (you could claim as much for the 14" hit that caused the ship to leak so much oil, allowing it to be tracked by the cruisers....)
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:36 PM
 searat12 wrote:
There, ya see?  Other than the hardened missile silo in Nebraska, nobody has come up with a weapon system that can take 6 x 1000 Lbs hits and still keep fighting, and that's kinda the point.  I have already discussed why no-one has built any battleships since WW2 elsewhere in this thread, and won't go into it again.  As for the Bismark (Oh yeah!  That's what this thread is supposed to be about!), yes, it was hit by one torpedo from a Swordfish.  But before that, it had been hit be several 14" shells from the POW, had sunk the Hood, and was all by itself.  And after the torpedo hit, the ship didn't sink, it was unsteerable (one of the bad points of German battleship design were the exposed rudders), but it took HMS Rodney, the KGV, several cruisers and destyroyers the best part of a day shelling and torpedoing the thing before it finally went down, and that was while it was essentially defenseless because it couldn't aim its guns while slewing all over the ocean!  The Swordfish's single torpedo was merely the catalyst for the destruction of the Bismarck, not the cause (you could claim as much for the 14" hit that caused the ship to leak so much oil, allowing it to be tracked by the cruisers....)
Well unless you are going back on your word, your supposed to say, "The battleship is obsolete."  You asked for just one weapons system and you got it...waiting...
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Posted by ogrejohn on Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:52 PM

 searat12 wrote:
There, ya see?  Other than the hardened missile silo in Nebraska, nobody has come up with a weapon system that can take 6 x 1000 Lbs hits and still keep fighting, and that's kinda the point.  I have already discussed why no-one has built any battleships since WW2 elsewhere in this thread, and won't go into it again.  As for the Bismark (Oh yeah!  That's what this thread is supposed to be about!), yes, it was hit by one torpedo from a Swordfish.  But before that, it had been hit be several 14" shells from the POW, had sunk the Hood, and was all by itself.  And after the torpedo hit, the ship didn't sink, it was unsteerable (one of the bad points of German battleship design were the exposed rudders), but it took HMS Rodney, the KGV, several cruisers and destyroyers the best part of a day shelling and torpedoing the thing before it finally went down, and that was while it was essentially defenseless because it couldn't aim its guns while slewing all over the ocean!  The Swordfish's single torpedo was merely the catalyst for the destruction of the Bismarck, not the cause (you could claim as much for the 14" hit that caused the ship to leak so much oil, allowing it to be tracked by the cruisers....)

Less than 2hrs is hardly the better part of a day. Rodney opened up at 0847 and by 0931 Bismarck fired her last main gun turret C. She sank at 1039.  

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Monday, June 1, 2009 10:13 AM
As far as the claim that it took surface ships to "do the deed" against the Bismark:
The surface ships were used as a "point of honor". Your battleship sank our battleship so we must sink your battleship with our other battleship.
Even as early as the end of WWI, the end was known. Why would the U.S. Navy have allowed Billy Mitchell to use the captured battleships as targets for his air superiority theory? Could it have possibly been a tacit acknowledgement of their new "target status"?

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Posted by searat12 on Monday, June 1, 2009 12:26 PM

I still haven't heard of any weapon system, besides a hardened silo in Nebraska that can take the kind of punishment that a battleship can.  And a hardened silo can't move!   As for the 'claim' reference the Bismarck, did aircraft sink the ship?  No, they did not, it was surface ships, including two battleships that sank the Bismarck.  Yes, aircraft MIGHT have been used to do so, but in point of fact, they were not (nor is there any guarantee they would have been able to hit the ship anyways, given how much Bismarck was slewing around).  As for 'the end was known by the end of WW1,' if that was the case, then why were SO many huge new battleships and battlecruisers planned and started?  Only the treaties, pushed by the Brits, stopped the battleships.  As for Mitchell getting his 'chance' to bomb the old German battleship, anchored, unmanned and unarmed, and never designed to deal with aircraft in any way, Mitchell had to fight to get that opportunity!  And even though he DID eventually sink it, if battleships were therefore 'instantly obsolete,' then why did everyone continue to come up with new designs and new production?  Why were the old battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor raised, modernized, and put back into service just as quickly as possible?  Same for the Italian battleships at Taranto, for that matter.... Not the sort of treatment you would expect in wartime for a heavily damaged and 'obviously obsolete' weapon system!

Again, the reason there were no battleships built after WW2 was simply because no-one else besides the US could afford them, and the US had such a preponderance in everything, that there was no chance that any other nation could possibly 'catch up' to challenge the US in a naval arms race.  As the US battleships very quickly HAD no equivalent opponents to deal with, there was not a lot of reason to either keep them in service, or create new ones, just keep the ones they had and periodically update them as needed.  The industry to produce battleships and most particularly, battleship armor all disappeared, either victim of the massive destruction of the war years (Europe and Japan), or conversion after the war to other production (as was the case with the US).  There is currently no foundry or steel rolling mill in the world that can produce large armor plates 12" or more in thickness (hasn't been for more than 40 years), and the cost of reproducing such an industry is so cost-prohibitive, that it is highly unlikely that anyone will ever build a battleship from scratch again.  But again, that does not mean the battleship is, or was obsolete; it means it has been SO successful, that at least in the case of the US Navy, it has defeated ALL challengers, and can therefore retire gracefully, as no further challengers have arisen, or are likely to.  Not torpedoes, not kamikazis, not bombers, not missiles, not submarines, not carriers, and not nukes.  Funny how often those old battleships keep coming out of mothballs periodically for new duty; I don't recall any old submarines, or old carriers, or old cruisers, or old anything else coming back into service after decades, can you?

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Posted by stikpusher on Monday, June 1, 2009 12:40 PM

No matter what the reasoniong, the fact remains that Bismark was sunk by surface ships after being damaged by a torpedo. Could Ark Royal's air group have delivered enough ordinance on target to sink Bismark by themselves is debateable. Until Leyte Gulf, no battleship at sea was sunk by carrier airpower alone. And prior to that, the only battleships sunk at sea solely by airpower were by land based aircraft (Prince of Wales/Repulse). IIRC, the Navy was very much against the Mitchell bombing tests, arguing that the tests were not conducted under artificial conditions that would not be realistic in wartime (i.e. ship stationary and not shooting back at the attackiong aircraft). While some in the Navy may have seen that the aircraft would be the weapon of the future, even the basic aircraft carrier was still in the future for the USN.

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 1, 2009 2:06 PM
 searat12 wrote:

Why were the old battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor raised, modernized, and put back into service just as quickly as possible? 

Most historians agree that it was a National Pride issue that they were salvaged at all...In the event, they were quickly relegated to second-line duty and participated in some of the shore bomardment that seems to have taken up so much of the batteships' time in WW2, to very mixed results...

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Posted by warshipguy on Monday, June 1, 2009 7:45 PM

Manny wrote . . .many battleships were sunk at sea with less than that and the Franklin suffered a lot more damage and survived (I paraphrase).  Remember, Franklin was hit by one kamikaze and was put out of the war for good (with over 800 dead).  No battleship was put out of the war after suffering only one kamikaze hit  . . . I can't even think of one that was forced out of action.

Let's see . . . Yamato and Musashi each took almost 20 torpedo hits and 11 bomb hits before going down.  Ise and Hyuga were overwhelmed by hundreds of aircraft and took many bomb hits and torpedo hits while in port.  Kirishima was virtually destroyed by Washington before being sunk.  Hiei was heavily damaged by surface forces, losing all fire control and steering capabilities; she was then sunk by aircraft. Kongo was sunk by submarines, Yamashiro and Fuso were sunk solely by surface forces, and Haruna was sunk in port by overwhelming numbers of aircraft.  Given that Japanese AA fire control and the associated guns were very bad, it is not surprising that most were lost to aircraft in some way.  (5 sunk by AC, 4 sunk by surface forces, 1 by submarine)

But, no British or American battleship was lost to airpower after PoW and Repulse. Oh yeah, Repulse had no real AA capabilities and PoW had few close-in weapons; they were sunk by land-based aircraft.  Those battleships that were hit tended to shake off the resulting minor damage and fight on.

One Italian battleship was sunk at sea by German land-based bombers.

So, where were the many battleships sunk by airpower?  Mostly in port.  When at sea, aircraft affected battleships to some extent, but not in the dramatic way claimed by many.

As for most historians agreeing that repairing the battleships damaged at Pearl Harbor being a national pride issue, I have read none who made that claim.  May we have sources to support it?

Bill Morrison

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 1, 2009 8:22 PM
...Sure, I'll dig it out...Your last post, however, argues more against your point-of-view than it does against other's in here, IMO...you basically conceed that air-power was the primary adversary of BB's---a point I tried to make a long time ago...we agree...thus, naval aviation and the CA took the place of the BB as the main offensive spearhead...and who cares how many toros and bombs it took to sink the Yamato--point is that she was sunk because the Japanese lost control of the air and had a field day (although how many hits she took is still disputed)...again, we are back to air-power...In addition, every hstory book I have read cites the Japanese control of the air as the reason POW and Repulse were sunk, the Japanese land bombers destroyed them at their leisure...
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Posted by ddp59 on Monday, June 1, 2009 10:37 PM
manny, the aircraft carrier was the main offensive weapon of us naval activties in the pacific especially guadacanal. battleships, both types of cruisers & destroyers were mostly used for aa support for the aircraft carriers & used to pound the beaches for invasion with the exception for the battle for the philippines. there the ships sunk at pearl harbour crossed the "t" of a japanese force & almost wiped it out except i think 1 destroyer.
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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 8:32 AM
Quickly relegated to second line duty?  Seems to me they were the primary shore bombardment force, and the other 'old' battleships that were not at Pearl (The New Mexico class BB's) were sent all the way around from the Atlantic poste-haste, and constituted the only battlegroup defense in the Pacific in the event the Japanese decided to follow-up their air bombardment of Pearl with a more substantial force.... Why would they do that, if the battleships were 'obviously' obsolete (and apparently had JUST been proved so, so dramatically?)  As for 'mixed results' for battleship shore bombardment, besides the American efforts, the Japanese battleships and cruisers  kept the Marines and Army Air Corps on Guadalcanal in a constant state of alarm, disruption and destruction, with Henderson field under almost nightly bombardment, destroying hundreds of planes, cratering the airfield, blowing up fuel supplies, and killing hundreds of soldiers, Marines and airmen.  If it was not for the amazing efforts of the 'Seabees' and the constant flow of replacement aircraft shuttled in by the USS Enterprise and others, Guadalcanal could well have become a terrible defeat for the US!  And what finally stopped this carnage?  The USS Washington and the USS South Dakota!

Again, I am not saying that battleships are in any way 'better' than either aircraft carriers, or submarines, or any other weapon system for that matter.  Battleships had, and still have a role which no other ship can fulfill, and that is to sail directly into 'harm's way,' deliver the goods, and come out the other end regardless of incoming shells, missiles, planes, bombs, torpedoes, whatever.  The only thing that can effectively stop a squadron of battleships with its usual escort destroyers, etc, is another squadron of battleships..... They were never designed to operate as single ships, or really in groups less than four, and those that were lost at sea to air or submarine assets, were not being operated as designed, and so therefore these losses were both avoidable and to be expected (if you operate a submarine in war exclusively on the surface, it will be sunk, and very quickly, because it was not being operated as designed, yes?  Combat aircraft operated individually by themselves will soon be shot down by aircraft flying in groups, yes?  Same for battleships!).  In other words, you can  use a monkey wrench as a hammer, it just isn't a very good one!  I think I have said enough on this subject, and will now leave it to others to continue this discussion...

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Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 9:02 AM

Manny,

That is not my point at all.  Air power sank half of Japan' battleships but so did surface ships.  Airpower sank one Italian battleship at sea and two in port.  Air power sank two British battleships, actually one battleship and one battlecruiser.  It did not sink 23 American battleships nor did it sink 16 British battleships. It failed to sink 4 Italian battleships and 2 German battleships and battlecruisers.

On the other hand, airpower did sink most Japanese aircraft carriers and three American carriers.  In fact more carriers were sunk by airpower at Midway and, again, at the Philippine Sea than at Pearl Harbor or Taranto.  Do you question the obsolescence of carriers based on how many were sunk by air power? I think not! That would be absurd.  But, that is the standard that you apply to battleships.  My 2 cents [2c]

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 10:25 AM
warshipguy,
As Manstein's revenge pointed out in an earlier post, carriers were sunk in a greater number because the screening ships were bypassed in order to hit the highest value target, i.e., the ones they feared the most, the aircraft carrier.
By that line of reasoning, the Japanese soldiers who were on the islands bypassed during the island hopping campaign could claim the enemy was too terrified of their fighting ability to engage them directly.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 10:40 AM

I hope that you read my last post in its entirety . . . I said that it would be ridiculous to say that a particular type of warship is obsolete based upon its rate of being sunk by another form of warfare.  To say that battleships are obsolete because some were sunk or damaged by airpower is just as problematic as saying that, because an even larger number of aircraft carriers were sunk by aircraft, they are obsolete.

And, look at your history . . . American aircraft carriers were heavily protected by multi-layers of protection, including their CAP, and the screen of radar picket ships, destroyers, cruisers, and battleships.  In fact, BB AA fire was instrumental in protecting those carriers by mid-1943.  Carriers were not hit because aircraft ignored their screening vessels; most aircraft could not get through the screen.  USS Franklin was hit by a single kamikaze that did get through.  Imagine the destruction had more been able to do so.

As Searat12 has repeatedly pointed out, there are roles for the different types of ships.  Carriers cannot perform the functions of destroyers and cruisers, let alone those of submarines. Nor can those ships fulfil the roles of carriers. And, these roles change with changes in technology and tactical thought.  Are carriers obsolete because they are no longer the "eyes" of the fleet? Are submarines obsolete for the same reason?  And, will we ever see another torpedo attack by a force of destroyers? Of course not!  Their roles have changed beyond that. It is very simplistic to take an "either/or" approach and say that one type is obsolete because technology changed.  Like it or not, many more men would have been killed and many more carriers would have been sunk had the battleships not been there.

Bill Morrison

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 12:50 PM
I'm sure we could find some use for the sabre and the gatling gun, but will it ever be seen on a modern battlefield today? I am now ending my participation in this spirited and lively debate as we are now going in circles...
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Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 12:52 PM
 PaintsWithBrush wrote:
warshipguy,
As Manstein's revenge pointed out in an earlier post, carriers were sunk in a greater number because the screening ships were bypassed in order to hit the highest value target, i.e., the ones they feared the most, the aircraft carrier.
By that line of reasoning, the Japanese soldiers who were on the islands bypassed during the island hopping campaign could claim the enemy was too terrified of their fighting ability to engage them directly.
....And of course, a carrier is a huge floating fuel and explosives depot with no armor to speak of, which will go up like a roman candle with just a single hit!
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Posted by ddp59 on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 8:46 PM
searat, i think it will take more then 1 hit to do what you describe. look at cvn enterprise & forrestal & possibly others of the supercarriers that have had massive explosions & fire that are still around years later in service or now decommisioned/sinkex.
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Posted by DerOberst on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 10:43 PM

 Mansteins revenge wrote:
we are now going in circles...

 

Oddly, this is exactly what the Captain of the Bismark said....

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Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 3:41 AM
 DerOberst wrote:

 Mansteins revenge wrote:
we are now going in circles...

 

Oddly, this is exactly what the Captain of the Bismark said....

And with this comment, we have come full circle back to the Bismark. WHEW!

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 6:57 AM
 ddp59 wrote:
searat, i think it will take more then 1 hit to do what you describe. look at cvn enterprise & forrestal & possibly others of the supercarriers that have had massive explosions & fire that are still around years later in service or now decommisioned/sinkex.
Tell that to the captain of the 'Taiho,' hit by one torpedo and blew skyhigh....
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Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 9:14 AM

Actualy Taiho did not "blow sky high" from single torpedo hit that she took, at least not immediately. But she did explode later as a result of fuel vapors that resulted from her torpedo damage, the same as USS Lexington at Coral Sea. Taiho was first able to launch her air group after taking the torpedo hit. 

I suppose a discussion of battleship survivabilty against torpedos is in order... after all Bismark was damaged enough by a single torpedo to allow surface groups to close and sink her.

 

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Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 10:06 AM
Yes, aircraft carriers are venerable because of their large capacities of aviation fuel on board. I, nor anyone else, ever made the claim that they weren't.
The battleships tactical and strategic usefulness has past. That is a fact, sad to some obviously, but a fact none the less. If battleships were the be all, end all ships some would hope, they would be produced today. There is no such concept as "cost prohibitive" when it comes to military spending, even when a weapon is a dud, as long as it has dedicated champions backing it (V22).
The aircraft carrier will reach obsolete status one day, sooner than its die hard supporters would like to be sure, but that won't change the facts or the outcome.
They will have served their purpose, with distinction and honor, and will be remembered fondly, but retire they will.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 4:34 PM
I don't think anyone here has made any claims that the battleship is the 'be all, end all' in any way shape or form.  What HAS been said is that there is no other ship that can do what it does (just like there is no other ship that can do what a carrier does, or a submarine does, etc.).  And the carrier will undoubtedly survive, as long as there is a need for 'force projection' that requires multiple on-call sorties by aircraft just about anywhere in the world.  And that mission is unlikely to change until combat aircraft no longer require fuel, or re-arming.....  As for the Taiho..... Boom!  One torpedo, scratch one flattop (and that one even had armored decks!).  USS Lexington blew up just like Taiho, and for the same reason... fuel explosions!  USS Wasp = three torpedoes, then... Boom!  Akagi = one bomb.... Boom!  HMS Ark Royal = one torpedo.... Boom!!!  Soryu = three bombs....Boom!!  Hiryu = four bombs.....Boom!!!  Shokaku = three torpedoes..... Boom!!!!  Does this sound like a trend to you??  You never get that kind of vulnerability to battle damage in a battleship at sea, no, not ever!  And THAT is what makes a battleship unique and unmatched for its job.... 
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Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 4:48 PM
Out of pure curiousity, does anyone have any information as to the thickness of the typical BB's hull bottom?

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 5:22 PM
Depends on the battleship.  Late designs often had triple bottoms and very elaborate anti-torpedo defenses, both internally, and with bulges, compression tubes, you name it..... The South Dakotas and Iowas also had their outside props and shafts built into a large skeg, thus protecting the inner prop shafts from torpedoes as well (which was not the case for Bismarck).....
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Posted by eatthis on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 6:00 PM

my grandfather was on the ark when she got hit. she didnt blow up at all she sank next day while under tow purely because the dmg control wasnt upto scratch alot of lessons were learned from that

ps im on your side about the battleship having a place in modern navies we wouldve benifitted in the falklands

pps the argies were terrified of our subs or more accurately the POSSIBILITY that attack subs were in the area they got an incorrect intel report saying we had them in the area early on (we didnt) and they changed their planning because of this!

 

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Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, June 3, 2009 8:14 PM
Oh yes!  Subs DEFINITELY have a very valuable role to play, no doubt about it, and are more deadly today than at any other time... (and the Argies found that out when the Belgrano went down)
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Posted by Firecaptain on Friday, June 5, 2009 8:29 AM
So like 9 pages and no in progress pics....discussing subs now.....WTH?  Whistling [:-^]
Joe
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Posted by rabbiteatsnake on Sunday, June 21, 2009 10:03 PM
 Firecaptain wrote:
So like 9 pages and no in progress pics....
Please the "Bis" is one of four kits to be recieving some bench time lately, there's not alot to see.  Hull, bridge & con, funnel, upper deck, aft/ fire cont & hangers are assembled. These are undergoing, carveing, shaveing & sanding to ready them for, PE hatches, doors and ladders etc.  When I have something cool to see I will post WIP's.  I feel I've bitten off a lot to chew with this kit as the threads subtitle ("pray for me !") attests, lots of correcting & refineing as well as an ambitous(autum 1940 Baltic sea trials camo scheme.)are in the works.  Thanks for your intrest though.
The devil is in the details...and somtimes he's in my sock drawer. On the bench. Airfix 1/24 bf109E scratch conv to 109 G14AS MPC1/24 ju87B conv to 87G Rev 1/48 B17G toF Trump 1/32 f4u-1D and staying a1D Scratch 1/16 TigerII.
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