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RoG Bismarck, Pray for me!

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, May 25, 2009 9:05 PM
Manny, I still don't think you have quite understood what I have been saying, but I will try one more time...The record shows exactly the opposite of 'battleships being husbanded,' with battleships repeatedly committed in every theater of the war, and in every kind of operation, from convoy escort, to carrier support, to shore bombardment, to search and destroy missions against other heavy warships, etc, etc.....  I STILL don't know why people keep saying battleships were 'obsolete' at any time in WW2, or even well after (Heck!  Even today!).  As I have said repeatedly, battleships kicked butt in every operation they were involved in during WW2, but because there were so few of them available in WW2 (and NOT because they were in any way 'obsolete,' but because of the treaties of the '20's and '30's), they did not operate as they were intended, in squadrons, and against squadrons.

After WW2, the only nations that had any number of battleships were the US and the UK, and the UK could no longer afford to operate even ONE battleship, let alone a fleet of them (the cost of TWO world wars finally bankrupted the empire, which collapsed shortly after), and so the Brits scrapped them all.  This left the US as the ONLY nation with any number of battleships (the French still had two, and committed them at Suez in the '50's, you may recall), but as there were NO adversaries left in the world with any real pretensions to seapower, the battleship was retired by the US (though repeatedly reactivated as need required).  Again, this was NOT because of 'nuclear warfare threats' (the Bikini Atoll atomic tests showed that battleships were in fact the ONLY ships likely to survive a direct nuclear strike!), or the aircraft carrier either, as naval warfare had evolved to feature balanced task forces with carriers AND battleships for mutual defense.  However, as the US was ALSO just about the only nation with any appreciable number of aircraft carriers either, it was easier and cheaper to mothball the battleships, rather than the carriers.  Even today, there is a role for the battleship which has YET to be equalled by any other ship-type (shore bombardment), but as long as no other nation decides to BUILD battleships (and in fact the technology and industry to do so has been lost for at least 50 years!), then there is no reason for the US to reactivate the Missouri's again, or design any new ones either.  In other words, that particular hatchet HAS been buried, but not because it wasn't sharp!

  • Member since
    February 2007
  • From: MS
Posted by KevM on Monday, May 25, 2009 8:38 PM
Hey Rabbiteatsnake  any headway on the build yet?The pics I have seen of the built one's look really good.
  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Monday, May 25, 2009 7:23 PM
 HEY WARSHIPGUY !! I must say ,this thread did kinda go bonkers on the old BISMARK . I think that many ships have been ignored by mfgrs. ,why? What would be wrong with a really good model of H.M.S. RODNEY ???? The lack of ships like her in 1/350 is sad . What an unusual profile she had . The papermodel companies (although some definitely don,t like them ) Have many ships from many navies and they are usually in the same scale . Now how about this . I am presently building S.M.S. KRONPRINZ (ww1) .I am using the polish paper model for the patterns . It,s in 1/200 scale . Now how about a 1/350 model of ARIZONA or her sisters in as launched rig . How many plastic models have you seen with cage masts and torpedo netting .?? I think that just like liners the companies only make what they know will sell . The reason is no one has made a blockbuster movie about the ANDREA DORIA or the NORMANDIE !!! Everyone I know today , even some teens have heard of TITANIC !!!! The DORIA ,????????? NUFF SAID !   tankerbuilder
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 25, 2009 6:47 PM
 ps1scw wrote:
Was her true value that she tied up much needed resources, while at port, that the British could have used elsewhere? 
Are you speaking of Bismarck? She was commisioned in 1940 (I believe?) and sunk less than a year later. She didn't tie 'em up for long...she was pretty, though.
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 25, 2009 4:57 PM

If navies were so loathe to use battleships, why did they fight in virtually every major naval battle or campaign of WWII? That is an undeniable fact.  The fact and the statement do not match; if navies were in fact loathe to use them, why did they use them? But, use them they did. Please explain . . . Confused [%-)]

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Monday, May 25, 2009 11:32 AM
Was her true value that she tied up much needed resources, while at port, that the British could have used elsewhere? 
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 25, 2009 10:59 AM
 searat12 wrote:
Also, I thought I had made the point that battleships did not fight each other in fleets in WW2, because there simply weren't enough battleships around to do so! 
Very true, that's why navies were loath to use them...cruisers fought the lion's share of "heavy" surface actions...and after WW2, well, BB's were obsolete---heck, probably were at the start of WW2...
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, May 25, 2009 9:12 AM

Also, I thought I had made the point that battleships did not fight each other in fleets in WW2, because there simply weren't enough battleships around to do so!  A fighting battleship squadron really needs at least four battleships, and a few cruisers and destroyers for a screen, and just about the only time in WW2 where there were actually enough battleships available in any one place for such formations was at Leyte, and of course, this is also when the last battleship vs battleship battle was fought (though there was certainly other opportunities in the Med, but the Italians backed down).  In other words, if your enemy isn't cruising around with squadrons of battleships, there is no need for you to do so, and so largely, they didn't!  This is not quite the same as being 'husbanded,' at least by my interpretation.  Instead, appropriate ship grouplings were assembled to deal with equivalent groupings of opposing ships.  Guadalcanal is a good example of this.  As long as the Japanese were sending cruiser groups into battle, the Americans responded with cruiser groups of their own.  But once the Japanese 'upped the ante' by sending in a couple of battlecruisers, the Americans upped their stake as well with a couple of battleships of their own in response, with predictable results..... 

In any case, I would very much like to see any progress made on one of these Revell Bismarcks, as I plan to get one myself as soon as my Trumpeter Prinz Eugen arrives....

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 25, 2009 8:04 AM

Manny,

I have already said that I agree to disagree.  Please read my previous posts . . . they outline the capital ship engagements very well.

And, it doesn't matter whether or not the Germans sought out engagements between capital ships; they used their ships aggressively against British commerce until Bismarck's loss in May 1941. They planned for a "guerre d' course" not a war against opposing navies. The Panzerschiffe and the Scharnhorsts were designed for such a war.  The Germans did not "husband" them. Following the loss of Bismarck, their theater of operations changed to the far north where they used them when they could. In other words, they "forward deployed" to Norway in order to interdict Allied shipping. In itself, that was an aggressive move and not one of "husbanding."  Remember, the British were also very aggressive in constantly trying to damage German capital ships, keeping them from going to sea.

Our discussion does not center on German ships. British capital ships were constantly at sea, seeking out German ships.  Every convoy had at least one "R" class battleship as protection against German commerce raiders,whatever their type. The British clearly did not "husband" their capital ships.

Nor did the Americans. Rather than "husband" them, American battleships were constantly at sea with carrier groups, bombardment groups, or fighting ship-to-ship engagements. They did not stay in port as a reserve, the meaning of "husbanding".

The French were only in the war for six weeks. They never had a chance to actually fight against the Germans, but Dunkerque still participated in the hunt for Graf Spee with Hood.

Only the Italians and the Japanese sought to "husband" their ships. The Italians did deploy their ships but retreated when faced with the British. The Japanese sent only the Kongo class out; the others were husbaned.  My comment about Yamato in my last entry did not mean that the Japanese used her aggressively, rather, that the American sought to engage her by using their battleships.

Anyway, again, let's agree to disagree. Historical interpretation can be tricky, depending much on an individual's point of view.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:18 PM
By the way, what eight instances are you referring to? I'll bet that all eight (or close to all) were "chance" encounters and NOT BB's seeking out other BB's to tangle with...for example, the Bismarck debacle is what I call a "chance" encounter---the Germans did not seek out the fight they got...
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:10 PM

Manny,

I have already said that I agree to disagree.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 9:14 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny,

I count at least eight instances when capital ships fought each other in WWII.  That doesn't include those instances when they were at sea hunting for each other. Even towards the end of the war, when Yamato was on her suicide charge, the U.S. battleships under Admiral Lee were sailing an intercept course to engage Yamato.

To me, this fact means that these ships weren't husbanded. To you, it means that they were. I guess that it is in the eyes of the beholder. History is based on interpretation.

Bill Morrison

...eight instances in 6 years of war? To me, that's being husbaned...and the Yamato incident?...the Japanese took extreme pains to keep that ship out of harm's way until the very end...I sincerely just don't see your point of view...let's just agree to disagree...
  • Member since
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  • From: Waiting for a 1/350 USS Salt Lake City....
Posted by AJB93 on Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:57 PM
I don't think I've seen a thread fly off so quickly. Anyways, forgetting historical discussions (I don't give a flying flip about the history, if it looks good I build it...I dare you to say I am wrong to do so!) I am very interested in your Bismarck build and would like to see some photos. It sounds as if you are doing a very thorough job and as I like this ship and would like to build this model I would like to see what you're doing.
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:38 PM

Manny,

I count at least eight instances when capital ships fought each other in WWII.  That doesn't include those instances when they were at sea hunting for each other. Even towards the end of the war, when Yamato was on her suicide charge, the U.S. battleships under Admiral Lee were sailing an intercept course to engage Yamato.

To me, this fact means that these ships weren't husbanded. To you, it means that they were. I guess that it is in the eyes of the beholder. History is based on interpretation.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:17 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Manny,

Thanks for your quick response! I will just leave it that I respectfully and sincerely disagree with that assessment. I agree that they were husbaned in WWI but not in WWII for the reasons that I've already stated.

Bill Morrison

I still don't think you understand...IMO, they were husbaned in the sense that most BB fleets avoided surface action with other BB fleets...

As far as BB's being used extensively in other roles during WWII, I agree with you, they were: shore bombardment, escorting carrier groups, etc...but rarely did BB's tangle w/ each other...

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:30 PM

Manny,

Thanks for your quick response! I will just leave it that I respectfully and sincerely disagree with that assessment. I agree that they were husbaned in WWI but not in WWII for the reasons that I've already stated.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:27 PM
Husbaned: used with extreme caution and sparingly against other BB's or carrier groups.
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:20 PM

Manny,

Perhaps if you defined your meaning of "husbaned" it would clarify things for me.  To me, the term means that battleships were kept in port in relative safety as in WWI after Jutland.  Again, during WWII, battleships were heavily engaged by most navies that had them.  I have shown how the Americans and the British used them extensively; the Germans used them until December 1943, while the French fought theirs when absolutely necessary.  Even the Italians sortied theirs regularly, only to turn away when faced by british capital ships. Only the Japanese kept theirs in home waters or away from the fighting.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:26 AM
 searat12 wrote:

Yeah, I like the 'eye candy' argument best myself! ;o)

That said, there is a lot about battleships and battlecruisers that have not really been appreciated, not even now.  The standard argument is that the aircraft carrier 'swept the field' of battleships, making them all obsolete in a stroke, and that they were so costly, that nations were afraid to commit them to battles where they might be lost, etc. 

It is important to understand that the battleship really was one of the first real 'weapons of mass destruction' created, and huge resources were put into their construction, so much so, that by the end of WW1, the former 'great powers' (in particular, Great Britain) realized that if they were to continue to try to keep pace with new powers arising (in particular, Japan and the US), they would be completely bankrupted (sounds kind of like what the US did to the USSR in the Cold War!).  Therefore, before this could occur, and while the Brits still had the most powerful 'fleet in being,' they made enormous diplomatic efforts to rein in battleship production by other nations, voluntarily 'giving up' a large number of their own battleships in the process, while retaining a relatively powerful position in comparison with the other powers of the day.  What this effectively meant was largely scrapping their fleet, and under treaty terms, scrapping large numbers of battleships belonging to other nations at the same time.  Of course, this does not, in any way demonstrate that battleships were in any way 'obsolete' or undesirable, just unaffordable by the UK!  Certainly, if push came to shove, many of these ships that the Brits scrapped could have been modernised and significantly upgraded, as were most of the Italian battleships, and the Japanese battleships and battlecruisers as well.

Germany, under the terms of the Versailles Treaty, lost 25 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers, a fleet which took some 15 years to build with 'an open checkbook' (let alone all the submarines, cruisers, etc, which were also eliminated).  Britain lost 24 (which does not count war losses), the US lost 8, and scrapped a  number of additional ships that were in construction, and Japan scrapped a number of ships and planned ships as well (and two were converted into aircraft carriers).

In other words, more than 60 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers were scrapped during the 1920's and '30's, not because they were in any particular way ineffective or useless, but to suit political and economic issues, and mostly that of Britain!  The result of this 'vacuum of power' caused two important developments, the first being the rapid development of the aircraft carrier, and less well appreciated, the development of the heavy cruiser, which largely supplanted the battleship in a surface fleet role, simply because there were no longer enough battleships in existence to form the kind of squadrons necessary to perform proper battleship combat functions.  All through the '20's and '30's, the remaining fleets with numbers of battleships (primarily, the US and UK) still did their exercises and evolutions as squadrons, the idea being to perform much the way they always had.  This changed dramatically in WW2, with the loss of a significant portion of the US battlefleet at Pearl Harbor, plus the sheer number of different tasks and operational areas that now required some measure of battleship support, and not because the battleship squadron was in any way outdated. 

Britain simultaneously had to commit capital ships in the Med (to counter the Italians), the Pacific (to counter the Japanese), the North Atlantic (to deal with German battleships and battlecruisers breaking out), and the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans (to deal with powerful commerce raiders like Graf Spee).  Quite simply, there were not enough battleships available to deal with all of these in squadrons as before, and given the nature of many of these operations (chasing after single ships somewhere in the middle of the ocean, not confronting other squadrons, and not worrying too much about enemy air attacks), it was both sensible and operationally necessary to deploy these battleship assets in twos and threes, so the job for which these battleships were designed (working in squadrons) was just not possible. France only had TWO operational capital ships at the start of the war (Dunkerque and Strassbourg), with a few very old dreadnoughts that had been converted into training ships.  Italy had a good squadron of capital ships, but because of a lack of experience, plus a healthy fear of British battleships, and of course, the ugly experience of Taranto, rarely did much of any use, being largely pinned down by the RAF (or more truthfully, the FEAR of being pinned down!).

Looking at the US experience in comparison with that of the Brits, much the same was true, with battleship commitments necessary in the Atlantic, North Africa, the Med and all over the Pacific as well, and with much of the US battlefleet sunk at Pearl, the few remaining battleships available could only be dispersed among the carrier task forces to act as AA platforms (and they did a tremendous job in that role!) and shore bombardment.  At the same time, since the Japanese fleet only had a few battleships that were actually fit to 'stand in the line,' such as the Yamatos and Nagatos (four ships in total, as the 'Kongos' were still battlecruisers, and the Fuso's and Hyuga's were too slow to keep up), the idea of a squadron of these operating in concert was only used as a desperate last measure at Leyte (which of course meant the US did not NEED to form up in battle squadrons of their own).  And an interesting note here, is that despite confronting a force of 18 escort carriers (Taffy 1, 2 & 3, the equivalent of six 'Essex' class fleet carriers, plus hundreds of land-based planes, and suffering innumerable airstrikes and submarine attacks on their way to the battle area off Samar with no aircover of their own, the Japanese battle squadron of Kurita in fact arrived, having only lost Musashi and two heavy cruisers, and might well have proceeded to cause some real damage, if Kurita had not decided to play it safe and go home... This does not indicate, at least not to me, that a battleship squadron with a measure of air support, was in any way either 'obsolete,' 'ineffective,' or doomed to defeat at the hands of aircraft, or aircraft carriers (and what might have happened if Kurita's force had been directed at Surigao, instead of Samar, is a question for the ages!).

Germany, in full recognition of its complete inferiority in terms of squadron operations, had really no choice BUT to conduct largely single ship operations against merchant ships, as anything else would have only resulted in the immediate and comprehensive  destruction of the German ships involved.  It is also important to realise that in the Bismarck 'incident,' the only reason Bismarck did not escape safely to Brest was the result of one extremely lucky and otherwise badly aimed torpedo hit in the one place that could (and did!) cause real problems, the rudder!  If that torpedo hat hit just about anywhere else, Bismarck would have shrugged it off and continued at speed!  That is not to say that the situation for the German Navy would have changed dramatically as a result (as Bismarck failed to sink any merchant ships, and still could have been bombed in Brest as was Gneisenau), as there still would not have been enough capital ships available to form an effective battle squadron.

As for Bill's comments about the model manufacturers spending too much energy on Bismarck, as against other capital ships, I cannot but agree!

Very articulate bit of writing which basically boils down to my original thesis: BB's were husbaned in WW2...you've spelled out specific reasons that support my assertions... 
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:04 AM

Yeah, I like the 'eye candy' argument best myself! ;o)

That said, there is a lot about battleships and battlecruisers that have not really been appreciated, not even now.  The standard argument is that the aircraft carrier 'swept the field' of battleships, making them all obsolete in a stroke, and that they were so costly, that nations were afraid to commit them to battles where they might be lost, etc. 

It is important to understand that the battleship really was one of the first real 'weapons of mass destruction' created, and huge resources were put into their construction, so much so, that by the end of WW1, the former 'great powers' (in particular, Great Britain) realized that if they were to continue to try to keep pace with new powers arising (in particular, Japan and the US), they would be completely bankrupted (sounds kind of like what the US did to the USSR in the Cold War!).  Therefore, before this could occur, and while the Brits still had the most powerful 'fleet in being,' they made enormous diplomatic efforts to rein in battleship production by other nations, voluntarily 'giving up' a large number of their own battleships in the process, while retaining a relatively powerful position in comparison with the other powers of the day.  What this effectively meant was largely scrapping their fleet, and under treaty terms, scrapping large numbers of battleships belonging to other nations at the same time.  Of course, this does not, in any way demonstrate that battleships were in any way 'obsolete' or undesirable, just unaffordable by the UK!  Certainly, if push came to shove, many of these ships that the Brits scrapped could have been modernised and significantly upgraded, as were most of the Italian battleships, and the Japanese battleships and battlecruisers as well.

Germany, under the terms of the Versailles Treaty, lost 25 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers, a fleet which took some 15 years to build with 'an open checkbook' (let alone all the submarines, cruisers, etc, which were also eliminated).  Britain lost 24 (which does not count war losses), the US lost 8, and scrapped a  number of additional ships that were in construction, and Japan scrapped a number of ships and planned ships as well (and two were converted into aircraft carriers).

In other words, more than 60 dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers were scrapped during the 1920's and '30's, not because they were in any particular way ineffective or useless, but to suit political and economic issues, and mostly that of Britain!  The result of this 'vacuum of power' caused two important developments, the first being the rapid development of the aircraft carrier, and less well appreciated, the development of the heavy cruiser, which largely supplanted the battleship in a surface fleet role, simply because there were no longer enough battleships in existence to form the kind of squadrons necessary to perform proper battleship combat functions.  All through the '20's and '30's, the remaining fleets with numbers of battleships (primarily, the US and UK) still did their exercises and evolutions as squadrons, the idea being to perform much the way they always had.  This changed dramatically in WW2, with the loss of a significant portion of the US battlefleet at Pearl Harbor, plus the sheer number of different tasks and operational areas that now required some measure of battleship support, and not because the battleship squadron was in any way outdated. 

Britain simultaneously had to commit capital ships in the Med (to counter the Italians), the Pacific (to counter the Japanese), the North Atlantic (to deal with German battleships and battlecruisers breaking out), and the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans (to deal with powerful commerce raiders like Graf Spee).  Quite simply, there were not enough battleships available to deal with all of these in squadrons as before, and given the nature of many of these operations (chasing after single ships somewhere in the middle of the ocean, not confronting other squadrons, and not worrying too much about enemy air attacks), it was both sensible and operationally necessary to deploy these battleship assets in twos and threes, so the job for which these battleships were designed (working in squadrons) was just not possible. France only had TWO operational capital ships at the start of the war (Dunkerque and Strassbourg), with a few very old dreadnoughts that had been converted into training ships.  Italy had a good squadron of capital ships, but because of a lack of experience, plus a healthy fear of British battleships, and of course, the ugly experience of Taranto, rarely did much of any use, being largely pinned down by the RAF (or more truthfully, the FEAR of being pinned down!).

Looking at the US experience in comparison with that of the Brits, much the same was true, with battleship commitments necessary in the Atlantic, North Africa, the Med and all over the Pacific as well, and with much of the US battlefleet sunk at Pearl, the few remaining battleships available could only be dispersed among the carrier task forces to act as AA platforms (and they did a tremendous job in that role!) and shore bombardment.  At the same time, since the Japanese fleet only had a few battleships that were actually fit to 'stand in the line,' such as the Yamatos and Nagatos (four ships in total, as the 'Kongos' were still battlecruisers, and the Fuso's and Hyuga's were too slow to keep up), the idea of a squadron of these operating in concert was only used as a desperate last measure at Leyte (which of course meant the US did not NEED to form up in battle squadrons of their own).  And an interesting note here, is that despite confronting a force of 18 escort carriers (Taffy 1, 2 & 3, the equivalent of six 'Essex' class fleet carriers, plus hundreds of land-based planes, and suffering innumerable airstrikes and submarine attacks on their way to the battle area off Samar with no aircover of their own, the Japanese battle squadron of Kurita in fact arrived, having only lost Musashi and two heavy cruisers, and might well have proceeded to cause some real damage, if Kurita had not decided to play it safe and go home... This does not indicate, at least not to me, that a battleship squadron with a measure of air support, was in any way either 'obsolete,' 'ineffective,' or doomed to defeat at the hands of aircraft, or aircraft carriers (and what might have happened if Kurita's force had been directed at Surigao, instead of Samar, is a question for the ages!).

Germany, in full recognition of its complete inferiority in terms of squadron operations, had really no choice BUT to conduct largely single ship operations against merchant ships, as anything else would have only resulted in the immediate and comprehensive  destruction of the German ships involved.  It is also important to realise that in the Bismarck 'incident,' the only reason Bismarck did not escape safely to Brest was the result of one extremely lucky and otherwise badly aimed torpedo hit in the one place that could (and did!) cause real problems, the rudder!  If that torpedo hat hit just about anywhere else, Bismarck would have shrugged it off and continued at speed!  That is not to say that the situation for the German Navy would have changed dramatically as a result (as Bismarck failed to sink any merchant ships, and still could have been bombed in Brest as was Gneisenau), as there still would not have been enough capital ships available to form an effective battle squadron.

As for Bill's comments about the model manufacturers spending too much energy on Bismarck, as against other capital ships, I cannot but agree!

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:14 AM

Manny,

If I misread your comment that after WWI battleships were husbaned as meaning that they were husbaned after Jutland, I agree that that was so during WWI. I apologize for the misreading.

As for anyone actually believing that the Kriegsmarine surface force could dominate the Atlantic, even Admiral Raeder scoffed at that idea.  He said that, with the war beginning in September 1939, all the Kriegsmarine could do was to show how to die gloriously. The Bismarck hit the Royal Navy hard by sinking Hood but died gloriously.

But to answer your original question concerning building a model of Bismarck, the story is compelling, the propaganda effort has made her famous even today, and she was a very beautiful ship.  I believe that Revell of Europe has done her justice.

However, I also think that there are more than enough models on the market of both Bismarck and Tirpitz. To summarize: in 1/700 scale, Aoshima, Dragon, Trumpeter, and Matchbox have released models of them.  In 1/350 scale, Tamiya, Academy, and Revell have done so.  In 1/400 scale, Heller and Kangnam have released kits. Hasegawa did so in 1/450 scale. Revell also has them in 1/570 and 1/1200 scales; Airfix has them in 1/600.  Numerous other companies have released them in 1/800 and other miscellaneous scales.  How many model kits of these ships do we need?

I would rather that the manufacturers focus on other battleships!  See Searat12's thread on recommended kits.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:51 AM
The Fleet in being concept was a valuable one for the Germans, they didn't even have to weigh anchor to pose a threat.

Much of the Home Fleet was tied up on a 'just in case' basis for much of the war, whilst more useful purposes for the RN fleets could not, or would not be executed.

Atlantic convoy traffic for example, could have done with much more support, but whilst the K.M. capital ships were sitting in Norway, the RN couldn't redirect those heavy units of the Home Fleet for convoy escort work, and neither could the shipbuilding industry construct more destroyers and other escort vessels whilst the yards were tied up with KGV Class construction.

The effects of a 'Fleet in being' go way beyond the frontline.

  • Member since
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  • From: Richmond, Va.
Posted by Pavlvs on Friday, May 22, 2009 11:29 PM
I think the eye-candy argument is the most compelling to build a great model of her!

Deus in minutiae est. Fr. Pavlvs

On the Bench: 1:200 Titanic; 1:16 CSA Parrott rifle and Limber

On Deck: 1/200 Arizona.

Recently Completed: 1/72 Gato (as USS Silversides)

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  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Friday, May 22, 2009 8:26 PM
Battleships had a big role as playing part in a concept known as "fleets in being". Where a navy's capital ships, just by staying in port and posing an active threat, could be a part of sea denial (although not sea control) to an area in its vicinity. The attacks on the massed fleets in Taranto and Pearl Harbor made this an unsafe option in later years.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 22, 2009 8:02 PM
Again, they WERE used for many things, but rarely were they committed against other BB's...and you should re-read my statement. I wrote that after WWI (Jutland) BB's were husbaned...I did not write that BB's were less active in WWII than WWI...
  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 22, 2009 7:42 PM

Manny,

I believe that I referred to German battleships/battlecruisers/armored ships, not just battleships. And, even the most cursory review of capital ship involvement in WWII shows that they were far more engaged than in WWI.

British and American capital ships participated as convoy escorts, AA platforms, carrier escorts, in shore bombardment, and against surface warships. HMS Renown engaged Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in the Norwegian campaign, HMS Warspite devastated German destroyers in the Norwegian fjiords. HMS Hood and Dunkerque hunted for Graf Spee.  USS Massachusetts engaged Jean Bart in a gunnery duel, putting her out of action. Countless older British and American battleships served as convoy escorts, even during the U-Boat "Happy Days".  HMS Renown, Warspite, Barham, Queen Elizabeth, and Valiant actively fought against Italian surface ships in the Mediterranean. USS South Dakota and Kirishima fought; Kirishima and USS Washington fought.  Surigao Strait saw American battleships fight Yamashiro, Fuso having been sunk by destroyers earlier. HMS Hood was sunk by Bismarck; Bismarck was sunk by HMS King George V and HMS Rodney.  And, I am just scratching the surface; American and British capital ships fought in virtually every major naval engagement of WWII. Of this there can be no doubt.  In WWI, they mostly sat at anchor.

German capital ships were engaged from September 1939 and remained very active through May of 1941. Granted, they were not supposed to engage warships due to their limited numbers, but clashes did occur. Graf Spee, Deuchland, and Admiral Scheer each engaged in commerce raiding. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau participated in the Norwegian campaign, sinking HMS Glorious (a CV) and fighting with HMS Renown. They also actively participated in commerce raiding, culminating in their successful cruise of March 1941. Following the loss of Bismarck in May 1941, German capital ships were less active, with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau being continuously damaged in Brest. But, Tirpitz was positioned in Norway to operate against the Murmansk convoys. After the channel dash, Scharnhorst joined Tirpitz and Lutzow in Norway. Lutzow participated in the Battle of the Barents Sea (a fiasco for the Germans) and Scharnhorst was sunk by HMS Duke of York in December, 1943, ending active German capital ship activities against the convoys.  In WWI, they mostly sat at anchor.

Again, French capital ships sailed against Graf Spee, Deuchland, and Admiral Scheer.  They engaged British and American battleships.

The Japanese Kongo's were heavily engaged against American forces, Kirishima being so heavily damaged by Washington that she later sank.  Unquestionably, the other Japanese battleships remained in reserve.

The Italian battleships avoided action but sailed on numerous sorties.

I really fail to see how capital ships were less active in WWII than in WWI. Far from avoiding conflict, they actively fought throughout the war.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 22, 2009 6:43 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

Actually, the idea that battleships were husbaned after WWI is misleading.  For example, the Germans used their battleships/battlecruisers/armored ships fairly actively up to the Bismarck episode, and even to December, 1943 with the loss of Scharnhorst. The Italians regularly put battleships to sea, although they were loath to fight. The French battleships engaged in surface sweeps against German Armored Ships and fought the British and Americans from their African bases. The Americans actively used their battleships in many settings throughout the war, engaging in ship-to-ship surface engagements, as carrier escorts and AA platforms, and in shore bombardment. Similarly, the British used their battleships extensively and aggressively throughout the war in all oceans.

Only the Japanese kept their battleships in reserve and away from the action.  Even so, their Kongo class was used extensively.

In other words, battleships were used to a much greater extent in WWII than in WWI and were quite effective in their many roles.

Bill Morrison

Disagree strongly...you cite that they were used as AA platforms, shore bombardment, carrier escorts---true (mostly by the Americans and Brits)...but as far as seeking surface engagements with other BB's, almost always this was avoided...

The fact of the matter is that BB's were so costly and took so long to build that any losses to most nation's fleets was catastrophic and could not be replaced...you admitted that the Italians avoided fights, so did the Germans in most cases (altough technically the ships you referred to were not BB's)...In fact, Raeder was sacked after he failed to be agressive enough...when the French fought it was only when they were cornered, and many of their ships were destroyed in port because they refused to sortie to sea...I just don't think you made a very convincing argument...   

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 22, 2009 1:41 PM

Actually, the idea that battleships were husbaned after WWI is misleading.  For example, the Germans used their battleships/battlecruisers/armored ships fairly actively up to the Bismarck episode, and even to December, 1943 with the loss of Scharnhorst. The Italians regularly put battleships to sea, although they were loath to fight. The French battleships engaged in surface sweeps against German Armored Ships and fought the British and Americans from their African bases. The Americans actively used their battleships in many settings throughout the war, engaging in ship-to-ship surface engagements, as carrier escorts and AA platforms, and in shore bombardment. Similarly, the British used their battleships extensively and aggressively throughout the war in all oceans.

Only the Japanese kept their battleships in reserve and away from the action.  Even so, their Kongo class was used extensively.

In other words, battleships were used to a much greater extent in WWII than in WWI and were quite effective in their many roles.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Biding my time, watching your lines.
Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Friday, May 22, 2009 12:30 PM
Surface_Line,
While I agree with your "hindsight" point, I find the assessment of Manstein's Revenge to be right on point. The Bismark/Turpitz were a pure waste of money. It seems ironic that as "far thinking" as the Germans were, and throwing in their alliance with the Japanese, why on earth did they not seek to develop/build more aircraft carriers?
Perhaps they suffered the same plight as the U.S. Navy did and were enraptured with the thought of the "glamour and prestige" still surrounding the classic battleship.
Look at the outright vilification of Billy Mitchell, having the gall to suggest that a little ol' aeroplane could sink a mighty battleship.
The day the Wright brothers took to the air, all surface warfare vehicles, be they land or sea based, became secondary in importance. Control of the air has been the foremost consideration ever since.
Not intending to insult anyone's love of ships, because I too agree that Bismark/Turpitz, as well as Missouri are beautiful. But we have seen it develop for the past 50 years. The two most important ships in the fleet are now the aircraft carrier and the ballistic missile nuclear submarine
Anyhow, enjoy you build, rabbiteatsnake.
Regards, PWB.

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, May 21, 2009 9:02 PM

Whoa!  I think everyone is getting rather more 'wound up' about this than is strictly necessary!  Manny has raised some significant points, some of which I happen to agree with.  However, there are OTHER points which I think Manny may either not know of, or has not mentioned.

 YES, Bismarck was NOT the 'world-beating' battleship that it has often been described as.  In fact, in many ways it was an 'old-fashioned' design harking back to the 'Baden' of WW1.  HOWEVER, it WAS a real threat to be reckoned with, and certainly more than a match for any operational British warship at the time.  Perhaps the greatest legacy of the Bismarck is not so much what it actually accomplished, but what EFFECT it had on the British and other allied navies of the time.  The news of its advent into the Atlantic caused multiple squadrons to be mobilized to counter it.  Aircraft carriers, battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, you name it, ALL were mobilized and directed against this SINGLE ship!!!  The entire Atlantic supply system was in shambles!!  The same thing happened with the Tirpitz, when only the RUMOR of it putting to sea would cause all convoys to be re-routed, battle-squadrons assembled, etc.  In other words, the THREAT of what these ships MIGHT do, was enough to cause the allies to jump through innumerable hoops to try to address these 'possible' scenarios.  This is the effect of the 'fleet in being,' and regardless of whether the threat actually 'lives up to' its menace, it certainly has a VERY significant impact on subsequent operations in a manner far outside 'reality.'  And in this respect, both Bismarck AND Tirpitz were of immense benefit to the Germans during the war (and besides, it IS a very pleasing aesthetic design, even YOU must admit Manny!).

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