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PT Boat Colors

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  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
PT Boat Colors
Posted by rodc on Wednesday, September 9, 2009 5:18 PM

I just opened my Revell PT-109 and was struck by the awful green color of the sprues.  After reading the instructions, the color references in there make it sound as if the finished model will be forest green with little blobs of copper, silver and black.  This cannot be right.  The box art shows an olive drab deck with gunwales and a pale gray hull.  This is looking a little better but......surely the US Navy did not have olive drab boats did they?  The color references in the instructions are pretty poor and I was wondering if someone has some advice to a more realistic color scheme as well as color references for different parts on the boat such as the torpedo launchers, mufflers, hull, deck, guns, dinghy (I assume they were not blaze orange in WW2 for obvious reasons.......wouldn't want a nice bright orange target on the bowBig Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]).

I would love to see some color pics if any exist and any other paint color suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

RODC

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Cherry valley il.
Posted by invertman on Wednesday, September 9, 2009 5:46 PM

my son is building this kit right now.

it seems from the pics that i have come across,the upper deck color is more of a

grey green color. i found the pics on the net some time ago,i will see if i can find them again.

jason.

  if you want permission for a test flight.... the answer is "no".

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, September 9, 2009 6:14 PM

There was variety to the colors; PT-109 originally shipped out to the South Pacific on pre-war gray (I have photos here) but was later repainted in a tropical green that I believe was a mixture of  zinc chromate and black paint. White Ensign has a Tropical green matched to it; my favorite US source for it is ShipCamouflage.com. You can see my work-in-progress PT-109 in this color about 3/4 of the way down this page.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio USA
Posted by Drew Cook on Wednesday, September 9, 2009 11:28 PM
Tracy and all,

The best references that have come to light in recent years for the actual color of PT 109 under JFK are three vintage Kodachrome color photos from the collection of one of PT 61's wartime skippers, Ken Prescott, who has stated he often tied the 61 up next to the 109.  The photos were taken at "Searlesville," in the Russell Islands, before the 109 moved up to Rendova.

The subject in the photos, of course, was PT 61, but in three of them, small sections of PT 109  can be seen in the background, tied alongside to starboard.  They are: #1) the 109's port aft hull, deck, and (port aft) torpedo tube, #2) the 109's port torpedo tubes, showing bronze-colored torpedo warheads in the tubes and her stern flagstaff with U.S. flag, and #3) some of the 109's "superstructure," i.e.; the top aft portion of the port cockpit splash shield, the top of the dayroom canopy, the port (aft) twin-.50 caliber turret, the top of the 20mm gun and its limit-stop rail, and the stern U.S. flag.  A shirtless crewman, who may possibly be Andrew Kirksey, is seen standing on deck.

In those Kodachromes, the color of the 109 -- everywhere except her deck -- very closely matches the U.S. Navy paint color Deck Green (20-G). The deck is somewhat lighter in color, most probably due to the constant scuffing of the crew's shoes/boots, and is close to the U.S. Navy paint color Navy Green (5-NG).

Those color Kodachromes were posted sometime during the last year or so on the PT Boats, Inc. website's Message Board, and I believe they have also been posted (at least photo #2 above has) somewhere on the internet.

Tracy's 1/72nd scale Revell 109 looks good, but with all due respect, and in a nod to the photographic evidence I related above, his green paint job (and the White Ensign Models "Tropical Green" and "MTB Green" colors) is way too light.  Deck Green 20-G is a much darker green, and the hull, tubes, and "superstructure" of the 109 in those vintage photos is pretty dark, the scuffed deck a little less so.             
  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by thunder1 on Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:05 AM

Howdy!

Try www.ptboatworld.com for some examples of PT boat paint schemes.

 CANADA-Home of Crazed Canadian Carnovoires: the Labrador Retriever!

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by sgtmac on Thursday, September 10, 2009 5:35 AM

Of course, you could always try a really different paint scheme-

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted by rodc on Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:03 AM

Good one sgtmac.........if I even tried to paint that, it would drive me batsCensored [censored]t crazy!!!

I think I have it settled in my mind how I am going to paint.  Colors will be in the green range with my own camo design - I am not too concerned with historical accuracy and build models for the fun of it.  After my initial color shock, I am actually looking forward to building this one......

RODC

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by sgtmac on Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:38 AM

Got to love that box art!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted by rodc on Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:23 AM

Oh my, that is an awful disruption scheme.  Sailing on her would give me vertigoYuck [yuck]Yuck [yuck]Yuck [yuck]!


RODC

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio USA
Posted by Drew Cook on Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:25 PM
sgtmac and rodc,

Those zebra-striped boats had their white stripes overpainted green when they arrived "in the forward area," which, depending on the thickness of the green over-coat, left some of the formerly white-striped areas somewhat light-green (some describe it as "yellowish-green") in color.
  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by John @ WEM on Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:07 PM

Well, let's see.... First, Tropical Green was not a mix using Zinc Chromate. The USN WW2 paints were field-mixed. The blues were mixed by mixing 5-TM blue-black tinting paste with 5-U White paint. The greens were mixed by mixing 5-GTM green tinting paste with 5-U. Tropical Green was a field mix using a 50/50 mix of 5-TM and 5-GTM, with 5-U.

The "Adaptor" camouflage--the zebra stripes--did not carry the camo over onto the decks. The decks were painted 20-B Deck Blue. And when repainted in the field, only some of the smaller panels had the white replaced with one of the lighter greens--just as the original design sheet for the pattern used small panes where 5-O Ocean Gray replace the white. It created a shadow effect that further disrupted the outline of the boat.

Cheers,E

John Snyder, White Ensign Models, http://WhiteEnsignModels.come

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:29 PM
Hey John... thanks for the tropical green formula.. hadn't seen that. The Zinc Chromate I was thinking of was from this document I had stumbled over and posted. Looks like there were a couple out there...

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by John @ WEM on Friday, September 11, 2009 8:57 AM

Hi Tracy,

Well--and I hadn't seen that one! I'll have to pass that one along to Randy, as I'm sure he hasn't seen it either.

Cheers,

John

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:56 PM

Rodc,

PT-109 was either painted in overall Navy Green or Tropical Green with a Copperoyd bottom paint.  Some even say that she remained overall Navy Gray.  I think Tropical Green with a mottled look and weathering would suffice.  But, that's just me. 

Other boats (whichever boat that you want to depict) were painted in various Measures (a section on www.ptboatworld.com deals with these Measures) that would offer you a few other options, even the Adaptor scheme. 

 The guns were gun-metal colored and the Carley float probably would be painted to match the boat, as would the life rings (although, those MIGHT have been Gray.

Does this help?

Garth 

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted by rodc on Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:46 PM

Thanks for all the comments.  It would seem that the general consensus is that the boat was indeed painted tropical green and may have had the deck painted a slightly darker green.

Since I have quite a collection of tamiya acrylics and model master enamels, would anyone know an approximate color from either paint line that would approximate the tropical green?  Does tropical green have a Federal Standard color number? Also, would this boat have had a hull boot stripe?  From what I have seen elsewhere on the net, possibly not but I think a black stripe would really enhance the finished product.

Garth, thanks for the info on the color of the carley floats and the dinghy.  I am thinking I may actually paint those a dark gray.

Once again, historical accuracy is not a big deal to me but I would like to be somewhat close with the overall green color. I looked at a tank I finished with the MM olive drab, and I just cannot see this being the right color for a boat.........just doesn't look right eventhough the box photographs look as if the green is an olive drab.

Thanks guys.....

Rod

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Monday, September 14, 2009 8:41 AM

Personally Rodc?

I do not believe that, at that point in time, that PT decks were painted in Deck Green, just the same color as the rest of the boat sir, but certainly with a lot more wear and tear showing on them, obviously.

The OD way?  If you were doing the overall Navy Green - then I'd say yes, that would be a match, although some here would crucify me for saying that.  But, from I understand, OD Green and Navy Green was the same green.  Also, many vets have told me that, if they ran out and Stores did not have any extra?  There were instances where the crews would 'borrow' OD Green from an Army unit or USMC unit.

The Tropical Green way?  Use OD Green and lighten it a tad.

As for the boot stripe?  I say why not, but I don't think the crews would take the time and effort to mask off and paint a waterline.  I've never seen any photos of any PT 'in theater' showing one.  But, it might make a more 'attractive' model.

Garth 

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted by rodc on Monday, September 14, 2009 8:49 AM

Thanks for this Garth.  OD green it will be!  I may actually use a little lighter shade of OD to put some disruption stripes and I think I will add the boot.

My motto is build them the way you like them.........provided of course the PT doesn't end up pink or something foolish like that.

I had a good look through your site...........pretty impressive.  By the looks of things, you are one serious PT lover.  Keep up the good work..........some great information in there.

Rod

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Thailand
Posted by Model Maniac on Monday, September 14, 2009 9:30 AM

Green is a great color. Everyone want to go green, you ask Al Gore. I really like this tone of green, it's so lovely. Like no other ships, my sister-in-law said the color of this ship is beautiful:

 

 

Impressive Songs:

All 10 Playlists that I created on Youtube:

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Pan Flute Music (300 songs) (Most Popular, over 100K views):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZO7alagEPsEMzgBkWt4-vKV

El Condor Pasa (Top 50) (World's most famous and my most favorite song):

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  • Member since
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Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Monday, September 14, 2009 10:24 AM

Thank you Rodc, ...

Funny you mentioned PTs in pink.  PT-199 was painted MOUNTBATTEN PINK while operating in the English Channel and I do have photographic evidence of this too.

I realize that you are doing it the way you like it, and that's FINE BY ME SON, but just remember that the 109 did not have disruption stripes.

If you'd email me at PTConsultingNHR@aol.com, I'll send you photos of three of the Revell kit that two guys built for me ... the 171, the 174 and the 556.

Garth 

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Monday, September 14, 2009 10:26 AM

Modeling Manic?

I like your 596.  Very nice work sir.

Garth 

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted by rodc on Monday, September 14, 2009 11:40 AM

Wow Modeling Manic.........real nice work.........

What color green did you use?

RODC

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by sgtmac on Monday, September 14, 2009 12:52 PM

I can recall that somewhere in my military book and magazine collection that I have an account of PT boats and British boats operating around the the English Channel that were painted pink on all vertical surfaces and dark gray on all horizontal surfaces, the pink supposedly took on the color of whatever the water was at the time. Apparently, it was quite effective but caused a morale problem among the sailors having to serve on these "pink" boats. I'm sure I have a picture somewhere also. I'll keep looking.

Also, there were a number of boats painted in "zebra" camoflage and they served in the Atlantic, Mediterranean, and Pacific theaters. The pictures I have show that there were quite the variations in stripes and layout. Again, I think I have all the pics in a folder somewhere.

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Monday, September 14, 2009 2:58 PM

Yes, the one boat that I know of, and have a photo of, PT-199, was painted in MOUNTBATTEN PINK during a point in time when she operated in the English Channel, I also believe that John D. Bulkeley commanded her for a time during this period, though I'm not 100% certain of that, but she was MOUNTBATTEN PINK.

As for the Adaptor Scheme (i.e.: Zebra Scheme), two Squadrons (10 and 15, one Elco, one Higgins) had their boats painted in the Adaptor Scheme.  Squadron 10, the  Elco squadron was  sent to the Pacific and the Higgins squadron, Squadron 15 went to the Med.  I know of no squadron of PTs (other than the Training Squadron - Squadron 4) that operated in the Atlantic.  From what I can determine, the boats of Squadron 10 lost their stripes soon after they reached the Solomons, Squadron 15 kept their boats in the stripes for a little while longer than Squadron 10.

Garth

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Thailand
Posted by Model Maniac on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:44 AM
 PTConsultingNHR wrote:

Modeling Manic?

I like your 596.  Very nice work sir.

Garth 

Thanks so much PTConsultingNHR, for your kind comments!

BTW, my nickname here is "Model Maniac", not "Modeling Manic". There's some difference between them. If you search google for the latter I don't know what you will find, but if you search for the former you'll always find my site at the Top of the list!

Impressive Songs:

All 10 Playlists that I created on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ModelManiacThailand/playlists

Pan Flute Music (300 songs) (Most Popular, over 100K views):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZO7alagEPsEMzgBkWt4-vKV

El Condor Pasa (Top 50) (World's most famous and my most favorite song):

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZOLKHbju350mLle4HkMhsb8

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Thailand
Posted by Model Maniac on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:53 AM
 rodc wrote:

Wow Modeling Manic.........real nice work.........

What color green did you use?

RODC

Many thanks for your kind compliments, rodc!

My modeler "Niphon" used industrial paints and he mixed the major colors (Red Yellow Blue Black White) into desired colors including this green. So there's no specific color code for this green.

BTW, I have 16 more pictures of the PT-956 in this page that you may enjoy:

http://www.falconbbs.com/model47b.htm

 

Impressive Songs:

All 10 Playlists that I created on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ModelManiacThailand/playlists

Pan Flute Music (300 songs) (Most Popular, over 100K views):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZO7alagEPsEMzgBkWt4-vKV

El Condor Pasa (Top 50) (World's most famous and my most favorite song):

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUNb2zPxGTZOLKHbju350mLle4HkMhsb8

  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by TD4438 on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:12 AM
It's a fairly inexpensive kit.Paint one the rather dull but accurate scheme,then go bananas on another kit with a scheme of your own.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted by rodc on Friday, September 18, 2009 12:42 PM

To everyone who have posted.  Thanks very much for your information - it has been a great help so far.  Hull color and lightened hull color for topsides has been applied.  Will be masking to spray the anti-fouling color tonight......hopefully.  I do have a question though regarding washes and weathering.  All paint applied so far has been Model Master enamels and eventhough I am quite pleased with the color on the topsides, I think it may benefit from a wash.  Any suggestions as to what I should use such as an acrylic and if so, what color?  How do I make the wash?  As for weathering, suggestions would also be appreciated.  I could probably do some drybrush "scum" around the top of the anti-fouling/lower hull area but after that, I am not sure what else would be appropriate.  Once again, your suggestions would be quite welcome.

Rod

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Friday, September 18, 2009 2:37 PM
Sorry Model Maniac.
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio USA
Posted by Drew Cook on Monday, September 21, 2009 5:54 PM
rodc,

You stated, in your original post..."I would love to see some color pics if any exist..."

Well, they do.  Sorry -- I didn't mean to confuse the issue with a reference to actual and historical photographic evidence.

P.S. I agree with Garth (who traditionally usually doesn't seem to agree with me on much of anything PT 109-related) in that the (green) forward-area 109 wouldn't have had a black "boot-topping" seperation line between the hull and bottom-paint colors.  But...paint it any way you want to, brother.  It might not be historically accurate, but it's only a model, and it's a free country!

-- Drew    
  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54 AM

Hi Drew,

Yes, that's right.

We agree to disagree on the 109.

But, then again, we CAN agree that she was rammed and sunk by the IJN AMIGIRI on the night of August 1/2, 1943.

Ballard contends the wreck is intact under the sand, except for a gash in her side.  Hogwash people.  The crew had always said (from day one) that she was cut in half, the pilot of that PBY reported half of an upturned boat on a reef, Evans reported wreckage on a reef that was approximately 40 feet in length (1/2 of 80 feet).

But, Ballard says she lies intact in deep water, UNDER the sand?  No debris field except for one torpedo tube, ... one torpedo tube does not constitute an entire wrecksite.  I suspect if someone would search for that reef that pilot and Evans saw wreckage on, that they might find more conclusive debris, possibly even something that identifies it from the 109.

I do not believe and have not believed that Ballard found her.  I am sorry but everything about that expedition bothered me to no end.  It flies in the face of everything I was taught to do in Archaeology!  Oh .... I found a single torpedo tube, it's from the 109.  Oh, ... it has wood on its bases, that means the entire intact wreck lies beneath it ... but I can't disturb the sand because it's a war grave and I must call the Senator to get permission to blow a little sand away from the base to confirm my theory about the wreck being intact?  WTF people?

A welded steel tube with a 2,000 pound torpedo in it would not pull away pieces of decking as it was torn away from the impact of a Destroyer smashing into a mahogany hull going at 35 knots and the wooden boat was going at the most, 5 knots and it was only a glancing blow?  Yeah, OK.  Well, if that's true, then that dream I had with Jessica Simpson, Britany Spears, Jolene Blalock and I last night must be true too.

Garth 

 

 

 

 

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