Soleil Royal

Let's reopen this thread.  I have often wondered about the deck furniture issue.  This kit has frequently been criticised as having too little deck furniture but it has the same rails and gratings as other sailing ship models.  Does anyone have any specific observations about precisely what furniture is missing, and how they corrected the alleged flaw?

Bill Morrison

Gentlemen,

Check out this thread!  It sheds a little light on the pinrail issue and some rigging issues.

  http://www.jans-sajt.se/contents/Navigation/Galleries/MyModels_Heller_Le_Soleil_Royal_100.htm

Bill Morrison

Sorry, but I couldn't get the link to work 

I think there could have been a jeer capstan on the focs'l, and maybe a flue from the galley on the focs'l too, based on plans of a 3 decker of 1692 in souvenir de marine. 

Check this link, about 4/5 down there is a reconstruced cross section showing a jeer capstan on the focs'l.

http://5500.forumactif.net/t52p120-soleil-royal-1669

cerberusjf,

Try this.

www.jans-sajt.se/.../MyModels_Heller_Le_​Soleil_Royal_100.htm - Cached

Bill Morrison

Sorry.  I tried the link myself without success.  I found the site by performing a yahoo search for "Ships named Le Soleil Royal.  It came up on page 4.  Try it and see if you have any luck posting the link.

Bill

Thanks warshipguy, got it now!  Interesting site, there's a lot of information to digest

My pleasure!  I keep trying to post the link, but I am having no success.

Bill

OK guys – Soleil Royal Plans in English – pay careful attention!

Go to this (Czech?) website:

http://www.radekshipmodels.cz/  using your Google Translate option to get it into English (makes the next bit easier)

Top left, under the heading “Contents Pages” click the item “product models and accessories”

On the right hand side two lists of ship kits appear (I can recommend a good old browse through this list another time)

Scroll down to the second list (I can’t work out exactly why there are two lists but it doesn’t matter) till you find “Le Soleil Royal” (lists aren’t in perfect alphabetical so take your time)

Click on Le Soleil Royal link and a page appears with some info, some box pictures and some build pictures.

Near the top of this page there is a link just under the manufacturer, parts and scale details called “Plan Board”

Click on this and you get a page with thumbnails to link you to jpeg images of the English plans

I’ve printed them and they are fine, comprehensive and make sense, although like all plans in all kits they could probably be a little better. I’ve even found that some ambivalences can be resolved by cross-referencing with the French plans and their much-maligned English translation!

Best of luck

Rob

PS I've reached the point with my Soleil Royal when I'm going to have to start assembling and stepping masts and making ratlines - otherwise known as "the scary bit"  (yes I'm going to use the dreaded "loom" - I got it to work fine with the "Superbe" so I'm going to give it a go)

PPS Many of the ship kits listed on the radek website have plans - a great source of info if you have lost or damaged plans, or just want to see whether that old kit on E Bay is worth a go!

A far easier way to get English instructions is to send me your mailing address. Someone sent an English set to me several years ago and I made a pile of copies that I've been sending to people. I still have some left if anyone has a need. They're the plans from the 70's when it was Heller Aurora and besides being in English also have better illustrations.

I've got a copies of both the awful Heller version and the Aurora version.  But, the kit was issued under the Imai label, too.  Their instructions really clear up the rigging..I think they're the best of all three.  I can send you a copy of those if you want, and you'll have all three to go on.  Just PM me your mailing address and I'll get them in the mail.

I would if I could. How do I PM?

Just shoot me an email at nbaxt000@hotmail.com and we can go from there.  Thanks!

Actually, PM (private message)  is easy to do. at the bottom right of the post of the person you want to send a message, just click the "Start Conversation" link.  

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jeffpez and Bigb123 I get the impression that you are offering to mail out hard copies to forum members by “conventional” mail. Isn’t this going to be very expensive to you, particularly considering many members are in different countries? This was why I suggested the solution via the website – a little complex but zero cost to anywhere in the world

 Of course the best solution of all would be to get (perhaps all) of these different versions into electronic form – say in pdf files – and then uploaded to one of the many free sharing sites and a link could be posted on the forum. The problem I suppose is that not everyone has access to a suitable scanner (the plans are in rather large and unusual paper sizes, so tricky with a conventional A4 scanner)

If people are finding the Czech website I refer to above hard to access (it is a bit clunky) I could upload my jpeg images of the Englsih version plans (could be the Aurora ones) to a sharing site and post the link if it would be helpful?

RobP

I don't have access to a scanner.  But, I don't mind the extra cost and trouble, as I've been given the same help by so many others in the past when I needed it.  Just like to return the favor and help others when they are in need like I have been.

I totally agree. I've mailed copies all over the world and don't mind doing it. Someone took the time to get me the instructions years ago and this is my way of repaying his kindness. I have no objection to using the web site mentioned above but should point out that the English instructions are printed on 11 X 17" paper and making them smaller for viewing on a computer will also make them harder to view (at least it does if you have eyes that are far from as young as they used to be). I'll send my address shortly and look forward to the new info. The rigging instructions are the biggest weakness of both the English plans as well as the kit in general.

jeffpez,

You can check replies to PMs at the right side of the screen..Conversations will have  a bold black number in parenthesis when someone sends you a new one.  Thanks

jeffpez, Bigb123

Please don't think I was in any way doubting your generosity which truly is nice to see

Regarding legibility of the plans, I also had my doubts (my eyesight needs a variety of aids to perform even the basic modelling functions). I printed each image on A4 (landscape, scaled to fit) and was surprised how easy to read they were (and a lot easier to handle than the double-sized pages of the originals). The print on the intro page and the data pages at the back are a little small, but still fairly reasonable)

The point you make about the rigging instructions (whichever version) is a good one. They suffer from two problems. Obviously there is the one of technical and historical accuracy. But in addition I just find Heller's method of illustrating rigging really hard work. In comparison the Revell 1:96 Constitution rigging plans, although not perfect, are a delight to use.

I wonder if any other reader of this thread who has already built the Soleil took the trouble of drawing out the rigging in a similar, easy to use style for their own purposes (perhaps even with accuracy amendments a la R C Anderson?) That would be a very desirable document indeed!

RobP

RobertP

But in addition I just find Heller's method of illustrating rigging really hard work. In comparison the Revell 1:96 Constitution rigging plans, although not perfect, are a delight to use.

 

RobP

 

 

 

 

I sure agree with that!  Heller ship instructions are worthless when it comes to rigging..incomprehensible!

I made my offer simply as an alternative and I'm glad the smaller size is so legible. The large sheets on my plans make picking up detail easy but are also far too big and can be difficult. I have yet to see anyone on any forum compliment Heller when it comes to rigging.

I received your package a few days ago and got a chance to look over the instructions last night. I certainly have to agree that they clear up rigging issues the Heller plans don't address. Thanks for sending them on and if anyone wants a set of the Imai instructions I'll gladly make a copy and send them on.

Youre welcome, jeffpez!! Glad to be of service.

Gentlemen,

I am considering adding a windlass, a capstan, a galley pipe, one or two skylights, and a chicken coop to the Le Soleil Royal.  I found excellent drawings of each for late 17th century French and Dutch ships.  I would like to solicit your ideas for reasonable placements for these items.

Obviously, the galley funnel would be placed on the fo'c'sle (probably to the starboard side aft of the foremast.  I am considering the windlass to be placed under the fo'c'sle amidships just  under the break of the fo'c'sle.  I am looking for your suggestions.

I have one other issue . . . the gratings as designed by Heller sit flush with the decks.  I am considering raising them slightly.  Can I please have your thoughts?

Thanks!

Bill

I would have thought the galley would be amidships at the break of the focs'l.  Not sure about the placement of the chicken coops, but they were usually on the poop in the 18thC.  I haven't seen them in 17th C. illustrations.  I haven't seen a windlass under the break of the focs'l on a 3-decker either.  Do you have any links to the images you saw by any chance?  

The two (not particularly satisfactory) clear plastic ones supplied with the kit are, according to the French version of the plans, supposed to go, one on the quarter deck (in a location where it would be impossible for the crew to get past) and one on the poop. English plans have them both on the poop, side by side, so the concensus appears to be the poop? Logic doesn't always apply in these cases but the quarter deck would seem to be a strange place for them, considering all the day to day activity there. One assumes they would be cleared away when the ship went into action

The model in the Musee de Marine appears to have flush gratings but one or two pictures I trawled from the internet up of wooden builds of the Soleil use raised gratings (no guarantee they are even as accurate as the Heller kit)

Searching through "Les Vaisseaux du Roi Soleil" I can find only one drawing that shows gratings, on p128, of a ship being careened (hence the advantageous viewing angle) and they are raised

I'm sure the considerably more knowledgeable contributors to the thread may well come up with the definitive answer, but in the meantime sounds like either is an option?

Rob

I saw the image in "Les Vaisseaux . . .", and I have seen other drawings of my possible location for the galley stack.  I have never seen any picture of a windlass under the break of the fo'c'sle on a ship-of-the-line, but I have seen them in that location on other ships.  Hence, my coming here with the idea.

One of the major complaints of the Heller kit is the lack of deck furniture.  Yet, I have seen no other models of ships of that era with more furniture that that provided in Le Soleil Royal.  I am simply speculating that, should I add more, these seem the most likely.

Bill

Okay, I understand now, it's just personally I don't think a windlass would be on a ship on the line of that period.  Looking at the section of "Nereide" of 1724 (?) shows funnels for ovens poking through the foc'sl forward of the foremast and the galley funnel by the break of the focs'l.  (from Boudriot's "History of the French frigate") so maybe there were a similar number on a large ship like "Soleil Royal"? 

What surprises me is that the gratings are drawn flush with the deck.  Also, looking at the Pic model (1750's) the gratings are also flush with the deck.   There are other models of ships from showing the same thing.  I was leaning towards raised gratings simply on the basis that it would keep any water on deck from running down into the hull as the ship heeled.  But looking at these models and the drawing, I'm not so sure..

Mondfeld's Historic Ship Models does show drawings of several 17th century windlasses.  Other sources allude to their use in ships of all sizes from that period as well.  It seems logical that Le Soleil Royal would carry one; its location is problematic.

Mondfeld also shows drawings of galley stacks of the same period; several ship models and drawings show the starboard location on the fo'c'sle aft of the foremast.  Certainly, Le Soleil Royal needs one.

I have seen illustrations of gratings that were both raised and flush with the deck.  I could go either way.

Bill

Well, I'd be interested to know where they were,  I've only ever seen windlasses on small ships and ship's boats for this period.  I've seen several arrangements for the galley funnel too, but the galley itself I've only seen amidships on large ships.  On smaller ships I've seen the galley to one side, for example Salamandre which has it to port.

You could be right.  There is conflicting information.  Looking at the layout of the model, even the capstans would have to be placed under the fo'c'sle and quarter deck.  They would not be visible on the finished model.  This brings us back to the frequent complaint about this model . . . too little deck furniture.  Perhaps I should limit my efforts to the galley stack and the chicken coop.

Which leads me to a question; if this kit is maligned over the furniture issue, why are no other kits of ships from the same period (Royal Sovereign, Prince, etc.) not equally maligned for having precisely the same furniture limitations as Le Soleil Royal?

I sincerely believe that this kit has been unfairly criticised.  Granted, Heller provided no way to attach the yards to the masts.  But, their HMS Victory also has no way to do so, yet, these same critics proclaim it to be the finest ship kit produced!  The critics proclaim the lower hull to be mis-proportioned, yet drawings in Les Vaisseaux . . . show the same underwater hull forms and proportions on French first and second rates of the period.  Much of the criticism seems unfair and inaccurate.

Bill