First Sailing Ship Model?

One thing I've done over the years is  to have bought every incomplete or inexpensive Model Shipways 5/16 scale USS Essex, as well as the small scale Aeropiccola SuperMEC series of POB ships that I could get my hands on.  Their blocks and fittings are very nice when fitted on small-scale plastic ships.  I have also searched for their sets of fittings at yard sales, flea markets, eBay, etc.  I have had to borrow a page from the architect of the modern Soviet/Russian Navy (Admiral Gorschkov), "Better is the enemy of good enough!"  The blocks might not be exactly to scale, but they are much better than nothing!

Bill Morrison

warshipguy

The Archeron is a fictional ship, whereas the Dom Fernando II e Gloria is a real ship that still exists in Portugal. Does anyone know how close the model represents the real ship?

Bill Morrison

Bill- it's accurate within the usual limitations of the small-scale plastic sailing ship. The deck arrangement is more or less bang-on for the D. Fernando at launch date, which is the condition to which she was restored in the 90s. I could never be bothered to take lines off a plastic model (it would be a hug undertakign for a dunderhead like me!), but the general hull form looks very plausible for her type.

 A few small scratchbuilt details would improve it immeasurably:

The spardeck (fully closed-over on this 'double-banker') carries long guns, which should of course be carronades. I am not yet sure how they would have been mounted, but in this scale it hardly matters!

Besides the poorly rendered hatch gratings, which I remain to be convinced wouldn't have been glazed over anyway,  the distintive 'pagoda' style cast iron awnings over the companionways for example are an essential 'fix' in my opinion.

earlier, more detailed discussion with links to pictures here: /forums/t/122460.aspx?PageIndex=1

good kit!

Will

Will,

Thanks!  After lobbying the manufacturers for years to produce more sailing ship kits, I had better buy this one!

Bill

I've lost track of the various Forum discussions we've had about this Zvezda/Revell kit - and I haven't seen it in the flesh.  But it sticks in my primitive memory that it is in fact a reissue of a kit from some Eastern European manufacturer (Occidental, maybe?)  that's been around for quite a few years.  Maybe I'm mistaken about that.  Does anybody else have such a recollection?

Having originally started this thread, I have read with interest all of the contributions to it - & the links to earlier, related threads.  I have learned (to my astonishment & delight!) that there is a restored Leeda class frigate about three hours drive away - so my camera & I will definitely be heading up to Hartlepool one weekend!

My kit of "Acheron" arrived this morning - & a quick first look is quite promising - minimal flash, accurately fitting parts - my only gripe is that there are no parts supplied for furled sails, as I have no intention of building her with the full set supplied.  I have no experience of modern kits, so cannot compare the crispness of the mouldings.

I intend to build her as a fictional French frigate which was captured & brought into the RN - there were many examples of such & it will allow me to paint her in the full "Nelson Checker" that looks so good on such vessels.  I also intend to detail her, provided that I can find the bits required!

Thanks to all for your help, it has been most encouraging - and particularly to the Gentleman (I will spare his blushes) who offered to post me over a kit which is only available in the USA as his contribution to my first "Age of Sail" kit.

When I get the opportunity, I will post images of how the (slow) constuction is proceeding.

Time to Splice the Mainbrace!!

Bernie

Mr. Tilley, i wrote some messages before, that both "new" kits - Zvezda's Archeron and Revell's Dom Fernando II e Gloria are the same kit, originally isued many years before by Occidental as Dom Fernando II e Gloria. Revell repacked this model in real name, and Zvezda in fictional "Archeron" name, known from movie "Master and Commander" to attract more buyers, linke Lindberg with theyr various "pirate" ships, while ship named "xx pirate ships" is more attractive to US buyer than real name i.e. Wappen von Hamburg, La Flore etc.

P.S. Occidental was Portugal company, so not from "East Europe". Portugal is in West Europe :-).

Wojszwillo

Mr. Tilley, i wrote some messages before, that both "new" kits - Zvezda's Archeron and Revell's Dom Fernando II e Gloria are the same kit, originally isued many years before by Occidental as Dom Fernando II e Gloria. Revell repacked this model in real name, and Zvezda in fictional "Archeron" name, known from movie "Master and Commander" to attract more buyers, linke Lindberg with theyr various "pirate" ships, while ship named "xx pirate ships" is more attractive to US buyer than real name i.e. Wappen von Hamburg, La Flore etc.

So my memory, for once, was right!  Thanks, Wojszwillo.  (On the other hand, I was mistaken about the location of Occidental.  Somewhere I'd picked up the notion that the company was located in either the former Soviet Union or East Germany.)

It seems the only genuinely new sailing ship kits (i.e., the only ones originating in the last ten years or so) among those we've been discussing are the Zvezda cog and the Emhar Gokstad Ship.  (The Revell one - a fine kit - dates from the mid-1970s.)  Can anybody out there think of any others?

I wish I could see some convincing evidence to the contrary, but I'm afraid that as far as the manufacturers are concerned the plastic sailing ship kit is just about extinct.  With the two exceptions already noted, virtually every plastic sailing ship kit on the market is at least twenty years old - and some have been around for upwards of fifty years.

John,

Don't forget about Revell's Batavia released around the late 1990's. However, it is currently out of production.

I have attached my latest letter to a manufacturer in the hopes that one will listen:

Ernie Petit, President

Hawk/Lindberg Model

4520 20^th Ave SW

Cedar Rapids, IA 52404

 

September 24, 2010

 

Dear Mr. Petit,

 

I wrote to you back on January 2, 2009 concerning my recommendation that Lindberg start a new line of sailing ship model kits.  My recommendation was based on the general quality of those currently on the market as so-called pirate ships; ships that in fact represent historic ships in spite of your current marketing.  I am asking you to reconsider your rejection of this request in light of the failure of your 1/72 scale Japanese submarine kits.  Lindberg has a flair for sailing ships, ships that you do quite well.  Other sailing ship modelers agree, as evidenced by their comments on the Fine Scale Modeling website. This recommendation could possibly increase your sales and profits, and establish Lindberg as a leader in sailing ship modeling.

 

You currently market four kits as so-called pirate ships, including the Sir Harry Morgan Pirate Ship, the Captain Kidd Pirate Ship, the Jolly Roger Pirate Ship, and the Blackbeard Pirate Ship.  None depict the actual ships used by these historic pirates; they actually represent historic national ships. For example, the kit marketed as “Harry Morgan” is actually the French ship Le Saint Louis; Captain Kidd is actually the German ship Wappen von Hamburg, the Jolly Roger is the French Frigate La Flore, and the Blackbeard ship is really the English Sovereign of the Seas. Lindberg originally marketed these exquisite ship model kits under their historic names; they should do so again.

 

Your goal should be to attract serious ship modelers as well as children.  Serious modelers know what these ships are; they are turned off by the childish marketing.  These ships would be well-received if marketed under their historic names.  They are well molded and reasonably well-detailed.  Certain improvements might be made, such as replacing the sails molded with hard plastic with either vacuformed sails or with cloth, and including full gundecks.  Serious modelers would delight in these changes, thereby improving profits.

 

Modelers like me regret the deplorable state of sailing ship plastic modeling in general.  No new sailing ship has been released in many years; the industry has inundated the hobbyist with nothing but re-releases of old products. This practice ignores the successes experienced by those manufacturers who have raised the standards in aircraft, armor, and modern ship modeling since the mid-1980’s. One has only to look at the huge successes of such companies as Dragon and Trumpeter, as well as the renewed successes of older companies such as Tamiya and Hasegawa to see that modelers crave new kits and that plastic modeling is thriving as an industry. In other words, we hobbyists are there to support those companies that act boldly and offer new and innovative products.

 

I would therefore like to see Lindberg take the lead in manufacturing a new line of plastic sailing ships, preferably in specific series and uniform scales.  For example, you could market ships to a standard scale in a French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars Series, an Anglo-Dutch Wars Series, American Revolution Series, etc. I would recommend a scale of either 1/144 or 1/150, with certain ships also manufactured in 1/100 scale. The idea of releasing ships in specific series would encourage modelers who understand that more ships are being planned that would fit with his/her collection. Simply look to the successful new companies who are doing precisely that!  Also look to the successes of the very expensive wooded ship kit industry to show that there are many sailing ship enthusiasts starving for new products to support your efforts. We sailing ship enthusiasts would flock to Lindberg in droves, especially considering just how starved we are for new products! And, just think of the marketing possibilities of an American company taking the lead! You would gain countless followers!

 

I would recommend that you start by considering the following ships as being of immense historical interest:

 

a.       HMS AGAMEMNON (Admiral Nelson’s favorite ship)

b.      HMS BELLEROPHON (The ship to which Napoleon surrendered)

c.       HMS VANGUARD (Nelson’s flagship at the Battle of the Nile)

d.      HMS DIANA (Historic British Frigate)

e.       HMS SHANNON (Historic British Frigate, defeated the USS CHESAPEAKE in 1813)

f.       SANTISSIMA TRINADAD (Largest warship of its era)

g.      L’OCEAN (Brueys’ Flagship at the Battle of the Nile)

h.      BUCENTAURE (Villenueve’s flagship at Trafalgar)

i.        De ZEVEN PROVENCIEN (De Ruyter’s flagship in the Anglo-Dutch Wars. A replica of this ship is currently being built in The Netherlands.)

 

There are many more examples of such ships; these represent a possible starting point.

 

Thank you for your consideration. Please understand that we hobbyists need new products manufactured to today’s higher standards. Please feel free to contact me should you have any questions about these recommendations. My email address is bmorri6409@sbcglobal.net

 

Sincerely,

 

 

William H. Morrison

 

Zvezda's Kog is the same kit as Revell Kog. It seems, that Kog should be Zvezda's mouldings. Revell's Kog only has better decals.

But Zvezda's HMAV Bounty is reboxed Airfix's HMAV Bouty, Zvezda's Cutty Sark is reboxed Airfix's Cutty Sark, Zvezda's Pourque Pas? is reboxed Heller's Pourque Pas?, Zvezda's Santa Maria is reboxed Heller's Santa Maria, Zvezda's HMS Victory is reboxed Airfix's HMS Victory etc.

      Dear Bill :   You should get a standing ovation for your letter requesting the introduction of newer plastic model sailing ship kits. However, my pessimistic attitude is that it will be a cold day in hell before any new sailing ship kits are issued to the modeling public. It's all a matter of the botton dollar. To prepare a plastic kit requies the making of new dies and all the procedures of new kit releases. The manufacturers are loath to make that commentment without being assured of a profitable return.

     Rather than expect a new sailing ship kit release, scratch build your model as I did with the BOUNTY. I sent away for the plans from Harold H. Hahn, who also wrote his book,"Ships of the American Revolution." His book instructs the modeler the steps it takes to build his models. Unfortunately, this book is out of print and can only be found in used book stores specializing in marine subjects.

    Scratch building requires many hours of a hands-on experience, but the results, in my opinion, are well worth the effort.

   Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                          Crackers                               

 

 

 

 

 

I can certainly endorse either of Harold Hahn's books (his middle initial was M., by the way).  The titles are Ships of the American Revolution and their Models and The Colonial Schooner.  Both have been out of print for a long time, but used copies can be found on the web (unfortunately at pretty high prices - but the original editions weren't exactly cheap either):  http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ships-of-the-American-Revolution-and-Their-Models/Harold-M-Hahn/p/9780870216534/?itm=3&USRI=Harold+M.+Hahn ;  http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Colonial-Schooner/Harold-M-Hahn/p/9780870219276 .   

I disagree with a  couple of minor details on his plans of the Bounty, but he was a fine draftsman and a master modeler - a far better one than I'll ever be.  I believe most, if not all, of the plans he drew are available commercially, and he wrote a lot of articles for Model Shipwright, The Nautical Research Journal, and Model Ship Builder.

I'm terrribly embarrassed to admit that, until a few minutes ago, I wasn't sure whether Harold was still among us or not.  I got fairly well acquainted with him when I was working at the Mariners' Museum (where his wonderful colonial schooner diorama resides), but that was thirty years ago.  I just did a Google search on his name, and was saddened to read this:  http://lbvfh.com/Archives/2003/Feb03/hahn.htm .  He was surely one of the most skilled and influential ship modelers of the late twentieth century - and a true gentleman.  He'll be deeply missed.  Let's hope somebody, some day, sees fit to bring Harold Hahn's books back into print. 

As for Lindberg - I'm afraid we can't hope for much from that source.  I don't have any special insights into the company's situation, but on the basis of other Forum threads I have the impression that Mr. Petit has retired from the company and it's ceased production.  The company website still seems to be functioning, but how many of the kits advertised therein will ever actually appear is anybody's guess.

If I had to bet on any plastic kit manufacturer to bring us a new sailing ship, I'd probably put my money on Revell Germany.  As Bill pointed out, that firm may have the distinction of having produced a genuinely new sailing ship kit more recently than any of the others (except the Zvezda cog and the Emhar Gokstad Ship).  I've never seen the Revell Batavia "in the flesh," but it gives every sign of being a nice kit.  (I would have said it came out in the eighties rather than the nineties, but I may well be mistaken about that.)  The Revell Germany Alexander von Humbolt and Passat (or was it the Pamir?) also are relatively recent releases that look good.  On the other hand, these are also the people who brought that infernal "Beagle" back to life - and can't seem to figure out the scales of their various H.M.S. Victory kits.  I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I have trouble being optimistic.

Gentlemen,

I am in full agreement that it seems unlikely that there will be any new sailing ship kits.  That said, it doesn't hurt to keep trying. I have written similar letters to Airfix and to Revell of Europe/Germany at least once monthly for several years. As for the Batavia, the release date was in 1996 according to the instructions.

I also agree with John that RoG seems the best hope.  I have noted a minor trend that Revell might be designing kits of the historic sailing ships that have either been restored (Dom Fernando) or rebuilt (Batavia) in the major European maritime nations.  I know that The Netherlands are rebuilding De Zeven Provencien, so, perhaps, . . .

Anyway, one can only hope.

Bill Morrison

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First Ship Kit?  -  An interesting question indeed

 The question itself takes me back to the first sailing ship kit that I built – the little (5 inches or so) Airfix HMS Shannon. About a dozen or so parts with the sails and yards in one piece!

 I was about eight at the time and I think it was the first kit I attempted to apply paint to  . . . paint the yards brown . . . oops!, got some brown on the sails! . . . paint the sails white . . . oops! got some white paint on the yards . . . etc., etc . . .

 I think that in my early teens I built most of the sailing ship kits around – Revell and Airfix being the only ones available in the UK at the time

 I tended to prefer the Revell kits because they fitted together best – Airfix rarely seemed to be able to supply two symmetrical hull halves in the kits I built.

 My own favourites were the Revell 1:225 Victory and their 1:96 Santa Maria and (I don’t think its available anymore) Revenge. The one exception was the Airfix Wasa that seemed to go together quite well and was a good test of painting skills. Of course it did have those awful ‘peg-in-the-hole’ cannons but even so I felt that I got a good result.

 For a first time sailing ship kit I would be inclined to avoid Heller. They tend to be a bit ‘quirky’ and although probably the best of the genre they can also be amongst the worst. Even though I think their infamous ‘shroud and ratline machine’ is unfairly condemned, it does take a bit of getting used to

     Professor Tilley---Thank you for providing the obituary of the late Harold M. Hahn, a person I admired for his professional work in ship modeling, draughtmanship and intense research in all of his modeling subjects. Because from time -to-time, I noticed advertisements of his ship modeling plans in such publications as the Nautical Research Journal, I had assumed that Mr. Hahn was still alive, even though he was a WWII vet well up in his years. Mr. Hahn's passing will be missed by the ship modeling community, as his work was a accurate departure from the usual "how to" ship modeling books and tomes.

     Mr. Hahn published 14 plans of ships during the American Revolutionary era of American and British vessels that participated in one form or another in that conflict.. The exception is the French frigate, LA LICORNE (The Unicorn), launched in 1755. I found many illustrations of the French frigate LA RENOMMEE (The Fame) which is almost identicle to LA LICORNE. Even though both vessels were launched a few years apart, they could almost be considered sister ships. Using Harold Hahn's plan and instruction from his book "Ships of the American Revolution and Their Models",  LA RENOMMEE   model has only progressed to the above photo.

    Last Christmas, my wife purchased a Euro Model kit of the British East Indianman, FALMOUTH. So as not to disappoint her, the Euro Model kit is in the first stages of masting and rigging, while the model of LA RENOMMEE languishes in storage until FALMOUTH can be completed. When the kit is finished, return work on the LA RENOMMEE will be posted on the Forum.

  Montani semper liberi !      Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                             Crackers                          

Crackers,

I admire your work! I have to admit that I have never considered scratchbuilding as being much too time intensive. Perhaps after retirement . . .!

Bill Morrison