German Destroyer comparisons...

I like Dragon as a company and have spent thousands on their products...and I do not consifer myself a rivet (or davit) counter...BUT, the bow didn't look right to me eiter, and after seeing what this modeler did to correct some issues I know now why...

As I stated earlier, on many ships these things wouldn't have been such an issue, but the Scharnie is well know for her sleek and graceful bow, so ANY errors in this area are magnified and significant as it was a major part of the ship's "persona"...

So if the kit scales out to 233 meters, and the actual length was 235 meters, we're talking, what an error of about 1%?

Sorry, but I'm going to lose any sleep over that.

As far as the shape of the bow... How noticable is it, really?

Beg your pardon, light grey is where the plastic was sanded back, dark grey the original paint.

The kit is 5mm too short. Note that the builder says his modified hull is the correct length and Olaf says the “model hull is indeed a bit short”.

 It may or may not show but the builder obviously thought it did and I think what he has done has made a big difference.  Reading between the lines it looks like the cad was not scaled up to take shrinkage into account before making the molds.

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70602

Olaf Held

My hull measures 66.7 cm (233.45 m) in length overall, 64.4 cm (225.40 m) in waterline length and 8.9 cm (31.15 m) in width. .....

Depending on the source, the length of the ship is given with:
LOA: 235.40 m (Koop/Schmolke ... well ...), 234.90 m (Wikipedia ... well ... they took the LOA from Gneisenau from Koop/Schmolke) or 236 m (Bredemeier book), Breyer's data is mis-leading.

CWL: 226 m (Koop/Schmolke and Breyer ==> Wikipedia (Germany) mentions just 'waterline' 226 m, which I think is incorrect.)

Beam: 30 m (Koop/Schmolke, Wikipedia, Breyer and Bredemeier)

I know, these are doubtful sources, but if the data is correct, the model hull is indeed a bit short, but not 8 mm. Maybe 4 or 5 ... and ... .... The width is a bit great, but do we know if the 30 m was the beam overall, including the main belt?

Happy calculating ~ Olaf!

California Bound  (The builder)

...Taking more accurate measurements now, my modified hull is between 67.2 cm and 67.3 cm. That makes it right in the area for the 235.4 m LOA. I was more skeptical of the accuracy of the shorter length stated in wikipedia.

rtwpsom2 (the designer)

I am pretty certain the overall length is 235.4m. I have a scan of the Kriegsmarine drawings and have put them in AutoCAD and scaled them out properly and they are almost exactly 235.4m......

The problems with the bow are that it is too fat at the stem, slims down as you go aft, then widens out again.  The waterline forms a “gamma” shape and the hull has a vertical depression running down the hull just aft of the stem.  White and green are filler, dark grey where the hull was sanded down, light grey is the original paint.

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68145

bbrowniii

Manstein's revenge:

warshipguy:

Just for clarity, what are the problems with the Scharnhorst's bow?

Bill Morrison

 

Too short and not the right curvature....the length is easily shown to be too short---all you need is a measureing tape and knowledge of scale conversions...there was a link in the other thread that was locked that showed a builder correcting part of the issue...

 

But, apparently, that builder has since concluded that there was nothing wrong with the dimensions after all. At lease according to what warshipguy had to say....

 

Manstein's revenge

warshipguy:

Just for clarity, what are the problems with the Scharnhorst's bow?

Bill Morrison

 

Too short and not the right curvature....the length is easily shown to be too short---all you need is a measureing tape and knowledge of scale conversions...there was a link in the other thread that was locked that showed a builder correcting part of the issue...

But, apparently, that builder has since concluded that there was nothing wrong with the dimensions after all. At lease according to what warshipguy had to say....

EDIT: Ooops, that should have been warshipbuilder, not warshipguy.

As I thought about this so called dimensional problem, I also wondered how it could have gone this long without getting more attention, considering all the hype around the kit and the number of reviews and WIPS that I have seen of it. Something just doesn't add up if you ask me...

Thak you! I appreciate it.

Bill

warshipguy

Just for clarity, what are the problems with the Scharnhorst's bow?

Bill Morrison

warshipbuilder

Dutywise, I am not privy to the details as to how the Eurozone countries charge each other for movement of imported goods from outside Europe  where the likes of import duty & VAT are concerned - VAT rates vary across the Eurozone, even when applied to similar items

I think that the whole idea of EU is to remove trade barrier among member countries. I can see that modelers in UK and Belgium pay less for a Harder & Steenbeck airbrush from German than US customer even after VAT. The same is true for Revell airbrush compressors.

I tend to agree that the high prices of Dragon kits is more likely the greed or incompetence of its EU importer. The market should correct itself over time. Let your local hobby shop know that you don't like the Dragon kit price and will not buy them. When the LHS stops ordering, Dragon will take notice.

I have a few of the older 1:200 Trumpeter ship kits that were excellent values. The only recent purchase of a Trumpeter kit was the 1:48 F-100C. The problem is opposite in the US. Trumpeter kits are overpriced compared to Revell, Academy and Dragon, and in a lesser degree, to Hasegawa and Tamiya too. I do not stop buying Trumpeter kits, but I compare-shop and found better deals in other brands most of the time.

Not quite sure - the guy who initially highlighted the problem went to great effort to 'correct it',  but now it seems that there is some confusion as to whether the bow and the overall length of the hull were correct after all.

From the additional postings in the original MWS thread,  It isn't plainly evident whether the kit is correct or incorrect.

Some are quoting certain references, with others quoting different ones.

The whole issue now seems obscured, with the guy who initially corrected his kit now saying there is nothing wrong after all.

Just for clarity, what are the problems with the Scharnhorst's bow?

Bill Morrison

cerberusjf

  I could have been interested in Scharnhorst if they hadn't made a mess of the bow and made it too short, but probably not at the price they ask for it.   Maybe the sky high price in europe will tempt Trumpeter to undercut them with their own Scharnhorst, hopefully with a better bow.  There are more interesting ships though.

As a fan of Dragon it really has shaken my confidence in them, at least in terms of ship models...Maybe they will own up to the mistake, correct their molds and reissue the kit...

Hi I had a look into this and the hulls of Z25 and Z39 are indeed different at the bow. 

Trumpeter has done a good job on the hull and includes the "lip" under the cluse, which Dragon seem to be unable to do.  This leaves the Dragon kit better than the Trumpeter kit in the areas of the bridge and forward turret, not a big deal for me.  As far as I can see from photos on the net and in Whitley's book the funnels on Z-25 didn't have much detail on them whereas Z-39 did, so the differences in the kit just reflect this I think.  The rivet detail on the Dragon funnel is way overdone, a photo in Whitley's book was taken about 30-40ft away from the funnel and no rivets are visible.

Thanks for the link, warshipbuilder.  I'm not that interested in anything Dragon have done so far, so it does't affect me that much.  I could have been interested in Scharnhorst if they hadn't made a mess of the bow and made it too short, but probably not at the price they ask for it.   Maybe the sky high price in europe will tempt Trumpeter to undercut them with their own Scharnhorst, hopefully with a better bow.  There are more interesting ships though.

If the facts in the quoted post are correct, it means that Dragon kits go through the hands of two European importers before they reach the retailer and then the customer.

Regardless of duty, each one which handles the stock adds a slice to the final rrp.

If the principle European importer is based in Austria it means the price will be higher too. Austria is not one of the cheaper European countries in which to do business.

Dutywise, I am not privy to the details as to how the Eurozone countries charge each other for movement of imported goods from outside Europe  where the likes of import duty & VAT are concerned - VAT rates vary across the Eurozone, even when applied to similar items

As I said, the quoted post is some 13 months old, and both exchange rates and rates of duty have since changed.

You are correct when you say that it is the importers who are artificially inflating the final rrp of Dragon goods. I'm just wondering how long this will be allowed to carry on before Dragon realises they could sell many more kits if they chose a European importer who didn't gouge the price.

I fail to see it also.  Dragon is from China.  So is Trumpeter!  So being from China has nothing to do with it either, regardless of what the exchange rate is between Yuan and the Euro.  They would also be subject to the same percentage with the VAT.  So doesn't it pretty much come down to what the Importers/Distributers are charging the vendors in Great Britain, for each model, that is determining what the vendors have to charge?  The only difference in the VAT being that one model is coming in at a higher price, so its VAT will be equally higher also.  Don't like the price?  Don't buy it!  The models don't sell, then sooner or later the Distributer is going to have to lower their price in order to sell the models, or Dragon will find another Distributer who will sell them.  And I know there is more involved, but isn't that pretty much basic economics?  If you have to have that model, see if someone in the US, or even China, will buy it and ship it to you.  Do you pay the VAT if you buy it from an American Vendor?

I fail to see how Europe's economic problems are Dragon's fault?

Cerebus,

I fully applaud your efforts re: emailing Dragon directly about their prices, but I suspect that you will get short shrift from them. Dragon will agree a deal with a wholesaler/importer/distributor along the lines of "You can have X no of kits at this price subject to a minimum order quantity for each subject - what you charge for them to your customers is no concern of ours".

Therefore, if you are in the UK, you really ought to be directing your efforts towards Dragon's UK importers.

I recently (a couple of days ago) found this post on a UK military modelling magazine forum. It is somewhat out of date having being posted over a year ago on 02/01/2010.

If you wish to read the whole thread you can find it here -

http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=35618

"Dragon kits come from China into their EU distributor in Austria, and the Euro has fallen in value compared to the Chinese Yuan. Then the UK importer has to pay the EU distributor in UK Pounds which themselves have nosedived against the Euro. Don't forget that it was only two years ago that the Pound bought you 1.5 Euros, now it is nearer 1.05 Euros. That in itself is 30% price rise straight away. And also I must remind you that we have a 17.5% purchase tax added in the form of VAT as well as the surcharge imposed by HM Customs & Vultures, as well as shipping & postage costs worlwide increasing."

It isn't only Dragon ship modellers who are turning their backs on Dragon, it o9is also armour modellers.

keilau

bbrowniii:

 

warshipbuilder:

b) Why was the other thread locked? Who lobbied for this action and why?.

 

 

That is a good question. I was puzzled m'self. Usually when Matt or Aaron swoops in, they leave a smack-down message. But this was done completely anonymously...

 

Manstein's revenge:

One of the ship "know-it-alls" insulted me and it went downhill from there...

 

ModelWarships:

I reported Manstein's last post where he insulted another member. It was deleted and the thread locked.

 

Aaron Skinner:

Gents,

I locked the other thread because it had clearly gotten out of hand. If this one goes south I will do the same thing and the people responsible, and I mean everyone, will have account suspended. I have said it before, and I am pretty sick of saying it, personal attacks and insults will not be tolerated.

Aaron

 

personal attacks and insults will not be tolerated.

Amen.

Hehe, oldies but goodies for sure!

I got it.

Guess you can tell what generation I'm from.

Oh wow, I'll never get that one across....

Or how much I like to watch the *** van *** show........

Oh wow, it does!! Sure hope I dont have to explain how I used a van *** brown wash........

Does nanny bot sensor ***?

bbrowniii

 

warshipbuilder:

b) Why was the other thread locked? Who lobbied for this action and why?.

 

 

That is a good question. I was puzzled m'self. Usually when Matt or Aaron swoops in, they leave a smack-down message. But this was done completely anonymously...

Manstein's revenge

One of the ship "know-it-alls" insulted me and it went downhill from there...

ModelWarships

I reported Manstein's last post where he insulted another member. It was deleted and the thread locked.

Aaron Skinner

Gents,

I locked the other thread because it had clearly gotten out of hand. If this one goes south I will do the same thing and the people responsible, and I mean everyone, will have account suspended. I have said it before, and I am pretty sick of saying it, personal attacks and insults will not be tolerated.

Aaron

personal attacks and insults will not be tolerated.

Amen.

warshipbuilder

In this particular instance, the supposed finer detail of the Dragon offering diminishes to insignificance in comparison to Trumpeter's kit and the asking price for Dragon's, especially when both finished items are viewed from a realistic scale distance away from either.

Ergo - It's Trumpeter for me.

I agree that accuracy is only worth so much, I don't think the Dragon kit is worth 2 Trumpeter kits as I've heard it will be here in the UK, or more importantly worth almost as much as a Trumpter Prinz Eugen or Revell Bismarck or Tirpitz.  But The Dragon kit is I think more accurate than the Trumpeter one.

I sent Dragon a message asking them about their price policy in Europe compared to the US about 2 weeks ago and am waiting for their reply. 

Tirpitz...

I thought "scuttle" was a verb.

I've heard of scuppers...

warshipbuilder

Gentlemen,

We are getting into an area which doesn't really merit further discussion IMHO.

In the US, you have the luxury of comparing both kits purely upon the merits of final quality & detail.

Good luck to you whichever you choose.

Over here, the final buying decision will be made purely on price, and on that note I don't give a Fonkey's Muck about scuttle shapes, but shall concentrate my attention solely upon the final selling price.

In this particular instance, the supposed finer detail of the Dragon offering diminishes to insignificance in comparison to Trumpeter's kit and the asking price for Dragon's, especially when both finished items are viewed from a realistic scale distance away from either.

Ergo - It's Trumpeter for me.

Gentlemen,

We are getting into an area which doesn't really merit further discussion IMHO.

In the US, you have the luxury of comparing both kits purely upon the merits of final quality & detail.

Good luck to you whichever you choose.

Over here, the final buying decision will be made purely on price, and on that note I don't give a Fonkey's Muck about scuttle shapes, but shall concentrate my attention solely upon the final selling price.

In this particular instance, the supposed finer detail of the Dragon offering diminishes to insignificance in comparison to Trumpeter's kit and the asking price for Dragon's, especially when both finished items are viewed from a realistic scale distance away from either.

Ergo - It's Trumpeter for me.