PT-boat vs E-boat...

Manstein's revenge

Anway, the nude mermaids are cool...

Anway, the nude mermaids are cool...

Originally, it was called Seven Against the Sea, debuted as a drama episode in Alcoa Presents in 1962. Later in the same year it was re-written as a comedy running till 1966 as McHale's Navy.

On another note, I wonder when Many is going to propose to the F-Lighter.

Hold on a minute here!  I know that I was a bit young back in the 60's, but I think that the PT boat of the a fore mentioned Commander McHale lit up about anything the Germans could throw at them.  Like was said a crack crew went a long way in combat.  I loved that show.  I would like to marry it.  Rick

You gotta hand it to the PTs, though.  They packed a punch big enough that DDs were first created to protect Battleships from them.  They were originally called Torpedo Boat Destroyers and the name was shortened to simply Destroyers during WWI when their mission was expanded to other work especially anti submarine work.  A submarine was originally conceived as a submersible PT.  That big an impact on Naval history puts a lot of kudos in the PT/Schnellboot camp.

MAJ Mike

  That could be a challenge to a DD or a DE

Imagine the PTs  going up against one of those which they did frequently. Those things were floating forts! 

Here's an account of one action in the Med in Summer '44.

http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_ccf02c0e/wp_ccf02c0e.html

plastickjunkie

Manstein's revenge:

Let's see a pic of one of these "lighters"....

 

 

Here you go Many. This is a small resin model but its a  typical Flak Lighter. Notice the two 88's, 37 and 20mm armament.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t67377.html

Wowzers!!  That's much more impressive than I had imaged.  That could be a challenge to a DD or a DE

Manstein's revenge

Let's see a pic of one of these "lighters"....

Here you go Many. This is a small resin model but its a  typical Flak Lighter. Notice the two 88's, 37 and 20mm armament.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t67377.html

Let's see a pic of one of these "lighters"....

I've got a couple of books on PT/MTB ops, in the channel (D-Day+/-) & In the Med.

I'll have to check details & titles but yes they did tangle, & yes there were wins & casualties both ways.

The S-Boote didn't generally work alone, could cope with much worse sea-states & were very heavily armed, 

but in the med at least, the F-lighters were regarded as the much harder target to deal with. 

There is an S Boat being restored in the UK at the moment & the footage broadcast showed wood in the hull. Here is a link to it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10973859

It should be quite something when it gets finished.

All of the references I've checked on S-boote indicates that they were composite construction: aluminum alloy frames and wood planking.  The double carvel planking was covered with a light metal.  Some references state that the S-boote had a fabric laminated between the two layers of pine planking.  The 3rd S-boote Flotilla  used various sea creatures: lobster; seal; shark; mermaid; penguin; crocodile. 

Metal, Diesel & guns - some things the Germans were always pretty good with.

Not convinced on the mermaid front though, not so sure about the fishy tail. If I had to have a maid, I would prefer a French one!

Manstein's revenge

Sounds like we have a winner...plus, they carried cool, nude mermaid logos on the sides of their hulls---always a plus...

Works for me.

Manstein's revenge

Sounds like we have a winner...plus, they carried cool, nude mermaid logos on the sides of their hulls---always a plus...

Sounds like we have a winner...plus, they carried cool, nude mermaid logos on the sides of their hulls---always a plus...

Well, there you are!

According to the book  US PT Boats of WWII by Frank D. Johnson, some of the Elcos that went to the Med were equipped with the "Thunderbolt" units. This was a powered driven four-gun Oerlikon 20mm mount located at the rear of the boat.  It mentions that this weapon had a righ rate of fire and helped when tangling with the heavier armed E- Boats. The PTs also tangled with F-Lighters wich had a shallow draft  making poor targets for torpedo attacks. These F- Lighters were diesel powered  shallow draft barges  that were heavily armored  and armed to the teeth with up to 88mm guns, making them extremely deadly. A single hit from an 88 could turn a PT Boat into mulch! The book mentions that The S Boats were 115 ft in length and constructed of aluminum frames and wooden planking,  having a higher operational speeds than the PTs. It also sites that the German torpedoes were very predictable and more reliable than ours.

here's a great site with lots of info:http:

//www.prinzeugen.com/SBOATIND.htm

Well here is a starting point, PT Squadron 15

http://www.ptboats.org/20-04-05-squadrons-004.html 

their bases in the Med

http://www.ptboats.org/20-04-05-ptbases-012.html

or here scroll down to the Higgins 78" boat section

http://www.lutonmodelboat.co.uk/history_ptboats.html

Not exactly what I meant.  I'll check S.E. Morrison's Two Ocean Navy and see if he mentions it.

PT Boats deployed to Italy?
Ask and ye shall receive: 

I'd bet on the S-Boat.

Re: S-Boats vs PT Boats -- a number of PT boats were deployed to Italy.  Don't have any references yet, but I'd bet if the confrontation occured, it would've been on the Italian coastline.

I agree with the Goose's comments on this. Although the PTs played a very decisive maritime role, the German S Boats were better built, armed and suited for its designed role. I believe they had aluminum hulls which is a lot better than Plywood. Training wise I would say that both sides were even. There are many heroic acts of both US Navy and Kriegsmarine crews during the conflict. A seasoned combat experienced skipper and crew make a hell of a big difference  in a fight. 

Wow, I didn't know that the PT and E boats ever engaged each other----where can you find info on this?

J. F. Kennedy declared the S-Boat the better of the two (once he had seen one after the war).

JFK had a chance to evaluate the Scnellboot postwar and rated it superior to the US PT boat. In firefights between the two types in the Med, Scnellboots often gave the PTs a bloodynose. My money is on the S-Boat.

Manstein's revenge

 

Sprue-ce Goose:

 

 

Manstein's revenge:

Which would win?

 

 

Are you talking early war E-Boats or  later war , up-armored  / armed versions ?

 

The late war one like Fermis just built and posted in here...by my count it has seven 20mm cannon on it...

 

Please forgive me if I sound like an Osprey Publication. ( did they do one on PT vs. E-Boat yet?)

Presuming we're also talking American PT boats.

PT boats :

1. were designed to strike quickly with torpedoes and get the H out of the area.

2. had lightweight wood hulls and petrol burning Allison aircraft engines.

3. majority of armament comprised 50 cal with  later additions of  a single 20mm  then later a 40 mm added but to my knowledge armor was not added. Some had fixed 37mm AT guns aka: PT109.

E-Boats

A.  were heavier and possessed greater range.

B.  later versions had armored bridges. Armament was also heavier than American PT boats.

C. fuel was Diesel.

D.  hull was metal ,supposed to be better suited to rougher seas and designed to operate at speed in a more horizontal attitude.

PT Maneuverability would be greater

As with aircraft, whoever has a stable gun platform and greater weapons reach should have an advantage.

If the fight develops into more than just hit and run, the late war E-Boat's armor and diesel fuel system should make "slugging it out" more survivable for the crew vs. the lighter , all wood PT boat

Training being presumed equal:

In a prolonged fight, I believe the late war E-Boat has a better chance of winning the fight.

Just my opinion.

Sprue-ce Goose

Manstein's revenge:

Which would win?

 

Are you talking early war E-Boats or  later war , up-armored  / armed versions ?