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Carrier warfare in the Pacific...

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, June 20, 2011 9:37 PM

True. The Solomons campaign ate up whatever experienced air groups the IJNAF had. They were  decimated by the summer of 1943, with no real prospect of ever regaining their former experience level that was standard at the outbreak of war 18 months earlier.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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  • Member since
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  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Monday, June 20, 2011 10:14 PM

subfixer

 

 Manstein's revenge:

 

 

 

 

Actually, Santa Cruz cost the Japanese more in aircrew losses than any other carrier battle...

 

 

 

With, of course, the exception of the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Granted, those pilots weren't the cream of the Japanese air forces.

No they weren't. The Battle of the Coral Sea may well have crippled the Japanese air arm from eveything I've read. Had they survived, they might have affected the Battle of Midway. Gotta love history.

 

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 Eric 

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Monday, June 20, 2011 10:33 PM

There was a fundamental difference between the two navies; they tended to keep their crews at sea until they were used up whereas we'd bring pilots home after a bit to serve as instructors and build up new squadrons so that the combat experience helped make better new pilots.

We also acknowledged ship losses and learned from them, such as the damage reports I post on my site that were spread across the entire Navy as opposed to entire crews being sequestered and hidden.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:22 AM

Manstein's revenge

 subfixer:

 Manstein's revenge:

 

 

Actually, Santa Cruz cost the Japanese more in aircrew losses than any other carrier battle...

 

With, of course, the exception of the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Granted, those pilots weren't the cream of the Japanese air forces.

 

I was speaking of aircrew operating solely from carriers...many lost during the "Turkey Shoot" were land based...

I think that the Japanese lost around 150, more or less, aircrew at Santa Cruz while at the Philippine Sea they lost a little more than 420 ship based aircraft and crew and around 200 land based aircraft and crew. But you could say that the loss of 150 crack pilots far outweighed the 600+ rookies.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:06 AM

subfixer

 Manstein's revenge:

 subfixer:

 Manstein's revenge:

 

 

Actually, Santa Cruz cost the Japanese more in aircrew losses than any other carrier battle...

 

With, of course, the exception of the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Granted, those pilots weren't the cream of the Japanese air forces.

 

I was speaking of aircrew operating solely from carriers...many lost during the "Turkey Shoot" were land based...

 

I think that the Japanese lost around 150, more or less, aircrew at Santa Cruz while at the Philippine Sea they lost a little more than 420 ship based aircraft and crew and around 200 land based aircraft and crew. But you could say that the loss of 150 crack pilots far outweighed the 600+ rookies.

I'll double check my refs on those figs---they seem low for Cruz and high for Turkey Shoot...

I read an interesting article on Coral Sea last night that suggested that it was both a tactical and strategic victory for the Americans, and marked the end of Japanese expansion---wheras most folks cite Midway for this...All three Japanese carriers comitted were either sunk (Shoho) or damaged (Shokaku and Zuikaku)...this was the first time the Japanese split their large fleet carrier force (Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku) up and it cost them...it also knocked the two best carriers out of the upcoming fight for Midway (Shokaku and Zuikaku)...

Another interesting tidbit I learned is that aircrew were permanently assigned to a carrier--they never rotated air-wings off like the Americans did.  If you were a Japanese Navy pilot you had a really great chance of NEVER serving or even landing on a carrier...if I recall, none of Japan's leading Navy aces ever served on carriers, or at least for no length of time... 

  • Member since
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Posted by potchip on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:08 AM

Crew on Zuikaku and Shokaku were 2nd rate, the carriers themselves being newly commissioned. The best pilots were all from the first air fleet ie Kaga Akagi Soryu Hiryu, all veterans from China. For Pearl, the crew of Zuikaku and Shokaku had to go through intense training for 2 weeks just beforehand and 'just' scraped through for the sortie - their bombing accuracy were less than half of those from the other 4 carriers and as a result, were mostly assigned to the bombing of base/airfields rather than attacking the fleet.

 

 

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:16 AM

potchip

Crew on Zuikaku and Shokaku were 2nd rate... 

 

Maybe not up to the standards of the other four carriers but certainly veterans when compared to the Americans...they served at Pearl and during the Indian Ocean raid before Coral Sea...Also, the design of the Shokaku class was the best overall design that served; both carriers were damaged numerous times but not sunk like many of the other classes built...  

  • Member since
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  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:25 PM

Manstein's revenge

 

 potchip:

 

Crew on Zuikaku and Shokaku were 2nd rate... 

 

 

Maybe not up to the standards of the other four carriers but certainly veterans when compared to the Americans...they served at Pearl and during the Indian Ocean raid before Coral Sea...Also, the design of the Shokaku class was the best overall design that served; both carriers were damaged numerous times but not sunk like many of the other classes built...  

 

Yes, both Shokaku and Zuikaku were able to survive bombs hits in numerous battles, whereas the older Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, and Hiryu were wiped out by bombs hits, alas, many with a flightdeck full of armed and fueled planes. It took torpedos to sink the Shokaku.

Hands down they were Japans best carrier design.

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 Eric 

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 1:31 PM

Manstein's revenge

 potchip:

Crew on Zuikaku and Shokaku were 2nd rate... 

 

 

Maybe not up to the standards of the other four carriers but certainly veterans when compared to the Americans...they served at Pearl and during the Indian Ocean raid before Coral Sea...

This only holds true for Pearl Harbor and perhaps into January of 1942. By the time the Solomons Campaign began in August, the crews and air wings of those two carriers were the best. They recieved the surviving air crew veterans off the other four heavy carriers lost at Midway and incorporated them into the squadrons. They had months of campaigning under their belts by the time of Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz which they demonstrated in thier air operations, where Enterprise would be hit and forced to retire for major repairs after both actions.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 1:38 PM

stikpusher

 Manstein's revenge:

 potchip:

Crew on Zuikaku and Shokaku were 2nd rate... 

 

 

Maybe not up to the standards of the other four carriers but certainly veterans when compared to the Americans...they served at Pearl and during the Indian Ocean raid before Coral Sea...

This only holds true for Pearl Harbor and perhaps into January of 1942. By the time the Solomons Campaign began in August, the crews and air wings of those two carriers were the best. They recieved the surviving air crew veterans off the other four heavy carriers lost at Midway and incorporated them into the squadrons. They had months of campaigning under their belts by the time of Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz which they demonstrated in thier air operations, where Enterprise would be hit and forced to retire for major repairs after both actions.

Maybe...it would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened had the US not had the fortunes that allowed them to hit the 3 carriers at one fell swoop...I mean, the sole remaining carrier, Hiryu, pretty much doomed the Yorktown all by herself outnumbered 3 to 1...had the two sides traded blows like at Santa Cruz it probably would have been much different...alas the fog of war...

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 1:49 PM

Indeed... Had Cdr McCluskey taken Enterprise's Air Group at Midway to the eouth like Hornet's Air Group, and away from the Japanese carriers and only Yorktown's bombers hit Soryu, that battle would likely have ended far differently.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 2:40 PM

Manstein's revenge
Hiryu, pretty much doomed the Yorktown all by herself outnumbered 3 to 1...had the two sides traded blows like at Santa Cruz it probably would have been much different...alas the fog of war...

Alas? I'm rather happy with the overall results of the battle. Since we're second guessing though, I'll go out on a limb and say that Hiryu damaged Yorktown, but it was only that combined with Captain Buckmaster's decisions and I-168's torpedos that cost the US Yorktown. She would have been saved had either one of the later two variables not been present.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:02 PM

Wow... not too keen on Capt Buckmaster for abandoning Yorktown on the evening of June 4th?

Well his actions are debateable, but I-168 certainly closed the case.

BTW, why lock your post for replies?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:32 PM

Yeah, Tracy---and I'm wishing the Japanese had invaded California just because of a "what if" comment...get real.

And you are wrong about the Yorktown.  As Stik mentioned, the ship was abandoned after the 2nd strike from Hiryu...the CO did send a salvage party over the next morning after she stayed afloat but there is nothing in most literature that suggests saving her was assured in the least. 

I'm guessing he locks his threads because of the last tustle we got into over Dragon instructions.  I'm game for another if he is...  

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:34 PM

stikpusher
BTW, why lock your post for replies?

ERm... I'm actually not sure. I don't remember hitting the check box to do so as I know it's a worthless feature, and I'm already set up to receive e-mail notice of replies, but I doubt anyone else did it for me... call it an "oops," I guess.

Back to Buckmeister. I merely said that since we were second guessing. I'm actually not a fan of "what if" scenarios. The facts of the matter are that Yorktown was damaged on two occasions and there has been debate ever since with regards to damage control as practiced in Yorktown's case. I was more taking issue with the notion that Hiryu's air group had some amazing effectiveness. US damage control, even when controversial, was better than Imperial Japanese Navy in both ship design and procedures. "Shattered Sword" covers the design and procedural weaknesses the Japanese Navy had.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:50 PM

Yes, Shattered Sword was a very good book. I dont think it produced anything as earth moving as it's end jackets stated. But it did really give a much better clear picture of Japanese opertations overall.

I think Hiryu's airgroup receives such accolades for their strikes on the Yorktown due to the small size of the strikes. 7 Vals managing to dive on Yorktown scoring 3 direct hits. 5 Kates making torpedo runs that were able to drop scoring 2 hits. Pretty good ratio of hits to drops. In the second guess catagory, it is easy to suppose the expereinced IJNAF avaitors on the other three carriers could have performed in a similar manner given the chance.

One book I have read, No Higher Honor, which is about USS Yorktown and covers her actions in the Pacific War mentions how damage control aboard her was improved in the aftermath of lessons learned at Coral Sea, barely a month prior.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 4:06 PM

I read an interesting article on the comparison's regarding the bombs/torps used by both sides.  In the article the author was of the opinion that Japanese bombs for the most part were wholly ineffective...however their torpedoes were extremely effective...I believe every carrier loss from Coral Sea to Midway was mostly the work of Japanese torpedoes, not bombs...I believe the US bombs were twice as big as what the Japanese could deliver, and if you calculate just how many bomb hits the Big E took during her career and survived his contention seems to have merit...On the other hand, all four carriers at Midway lost by the Japanese were due to bombs!

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 4:14 PM

Manstein's revenge
And you are wrong about the Yorktown.  As Stik mentioned, the ship was abandoned after the 2nd strike from Hiryu...the CO did send a salvage party over the next morning after she stayed afloat but there is nothing in most literature that suggests saving her was assured in the least. 

I'm guessing he locks his threads because of the last tustle we got into over Dragon instructions.  I'm game for another if he is... 

Believe it or not, I'm not out to get threads locked. I'm not "tustling" with you here, you want to have an honest discussion let's do it elsewhere.

Have you read Yorktown's Loss in Action report? Paragraph 40 is particularly enlightening:

On the morning of June 6 the draft and list of the ship did not appear to be appreciably greater than on the evening of June 4. During the entire day of salvage operations the flooding in the ship did not increase, and the water on the third deck aft had been reduced three feet in depth. The list was reduced by 2° resulting in a list to port of 22° just before the ship was attacked by a submarine.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 4:17 PM

Tracy White

 Manstein's revenge:
And you are wrong about the Yorktown.  As Stik mentioned, the ship was abandoned after the 2nd strike from Hiryu...the CO did send a salvage party over the next morning after she stayed afloat but there is nothing in most literature that suggests saving her was assured in the least. 

I'm guessing he locks his threads because of the last tustle we got into over Dragon instructions.  I'm game for another if he is... 

Believe it or not, I'm not out to get threads locked. I'm not "tustling" with you here, you want to have an honest discussion let's do it elsewhere.

Have you read Yorktown's Loss in Action report? Paragraph 40 is particularly enlightening:

On the morning of June 6 the draft and list of the ship did not appear to be appreciably greater than on the evening of June 4. During the entire day of salvage operations the flooding in the ship did not increase, and the water on the third deck aft had been reduced three feet in depth. The list was reduced by 2° resulting in a list to port of 22° just before the ship was attacked by a submarine.

Skip to the part where someone says the odds were that the ship was to be saved...

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 4:30 PM

Manstein's revenge
I believe every carrier loss from Coral Sea to Midway was mostly the work of Japanese torpedoes, not bombs..

Lexington's loss is a bit harder to pin down... she was steaming normally ad just a bit down at the head. I gas fume explosion and subsequent fires were what doomed her, but it's hard to argue that the fumes would have happened without some "help" from a couple of torpedoes and bombs. Her damage report can be read at

http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/index/1313/0

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 5:36 PM

Manstein's revenge
Skip to the part where someone says the odds were that the ship was to be saved...

Paragraph number? A search for "odds" had no hits.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:24 PM

Tracy White

 Manstein's revenge:
Skip to the part where someone says the odds were that the ship was to be saved...

Paragraph number? A search for "odds" had no hits.

That's what I thought...based on eveerything I've read, the ship was considered lost before the submarine attack...and I'm sure that none of the damage reports written during the war were biased---especially if it would have cast a much-liked CO in a bad light...doesn't sound like it as you've cited no such language to contradict she was a write-off... 

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:28 PM

Manstein's revenge
That's what I thought...based on eveerything I've read, the ship was considered lost before the submarine attack...and I'm sure that none of the damage reports written during the war were biased---especially if it would have cast a much-liked CO in a bad light...doesn't sound like it as you've cited no such language to contradict she was a write-off...

Wow..okay, sorry, I thought you had actually READ the report before commenting on it... my bad for miss-understanding what you were driving at.

Relevant Text, with paragraphs for reference:

12.  Damage control measures could not be taken because of loss of all power, both steam and electrical. The after emergency diesel generator cut in and started, but circuit breakers on the switchboard failed to hold, evidently due to short circuit. At 1702, seventeen minutes after the two aircraft torpedoes hit, word was passed to abandon ship. The list was 23º at this time.

So, the Captain decided very quickly, due to the rapid list and loss of power, that the ship was lost and he had to save his crew. Your "write off" statement is supported initially, but not over the course of the next couple of days.

13.  At noon on June 5 VIREO joined company with YORKTOWN and HUGHES.... Later in the afternoon a rescue party was sent aboard YORKTOWN to jettison loose gear.

14.  On the morning of June 6 a salvage party composed of ship's officers and crew returned aboard YORKTOWN. They found that the list had increased to 24°

So roughly 36 hours after abandon ship a serious salvage crew returned and the list had only increased by one degree. That is not a ship that is in imminent danger of capsizing.

15.  At 1536 considerable progress had been made, and the list had been reduced 2° , when a salvo of four submarine torpedoes was sighted approaching the ship on the starboard beam..... The damage from the submarine torpedoes and the shock from HAMMANN's depth charges were very severe. The list was reduced to 17° but the ship settled deeper in the water. There was no noticeable change in trim.

So the list decreases by 7 degrees after the torpedoes hit and Hamman's depth charge shock gets to pound away inside her flooded hull. This decrease in list is because she is taking on water again and actually sinking now.

16.  The salvage party abandoned ship prior to dark, after closing as many watertight closures as possible on main deck and below. The Commanding Officer, during his final inspection, noted a heavy pounding of water through the torpdeo hole on the starboard side. This may have led to rupture of some internal bulkheads during the night.

40.  On the morning of June 6 the draft and list of the ship did not appear to be appreciably greater than on the evening of June 4. During the entire day of salvage operations the flooding in the ship did not increase, and the water on the third deck aft had been reduced three feet in depth. The list was reduced by 2° resulting in a list to port of 22° just before the ship was attacked by a submarine.

This also is not characteristic of a ship about to be lost. She took two torpedo hits and a bunch of bombs.. I'm not arguing that Hiryu's aviators weren't effective. I'm saying that Yorktown was lost because her captain abandoned ship immediately (not really a bad decision based on the rate of list) and then did not have a repair & salvage party ready the next day and ran into a Japanese submarine with a full load of torpedoes in her tubes. Going back to my original statement, ANY ONE of those variables not happening would have resulted in the ship being saved, at least long enough to run into I-168 or another submarine later.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:21 PM

Tracy White

 Manstein's revenge:
That's what I thought...based on eveerything I've read, the ship was considered lost before the submarine attack...and I'm sure that none of the damage reports written during the war were biased---especially if it would have cast a much-liked CO in a bad light...doesn't sound like it as you've cited no such language to contradict she was a write-off...

Wow..okay, sorry, I thought you had actually READ the report before commenting on it... my bad for miss-understanding what you were driving at.

Relevant Text, with paragraphs for reference:

12.  Damage control measures could not be taken because of loss of all power, both steam and electrical. The after emergency diesel generator cut in and started, but circuit breakers on the switchboard failed to hold, evidently due to short circuit. At 1702, seventeen minutes after the two aircraft torpedoes hit, word was passed to abandon ship. The list was 23º at this time.

So, the Captain decided very quickly, due to the rapid list and loss of power, that the ship was lost and he had to save his crew. Your "write off" statement is supported initially, but not over the course of the next couple of days.

13.  At noon on June 5 VIREO joined company with YORKTOWN and HUGHES.... Later in the afternoon a rescue party was sent aboard YORKTOWN to jettison loose gear.

14.  On the morning of June 6 a salvage party composed of ship's officers and crew returned aboard YORKTOWN. They found that the list had increased to 24°

So roughly 36 hours after abandon ship a serious salvage crew returned and the list had only increased by one degree. That is not a ship that is in imminent danger of capsizing.

15.  At 1536 considerable progress had been made, and the list had been reduced 2° , when a salvo of four submarine torpedoes was sighted approaching the ship on the starboard beam..... The damage from the submarine torpedoes and the shock from HAMMANN's depth charges were very severe. The list was reduced to 17° but the ship settled deeper in the water. There was no noticeable change in trim.

So the list decreases by 7 degrees after the torpedoes hit and Hamman's depth charge shock gets to pound away inside her flooded hull. This decrease in list is because she is taking on water again and actually sinking now.

16.  The salvage party abandoned ship prior to dark, after closing as many watertight closures as possible on main deck and below. The Commanding Officer, during his final inspection, noted a heavy pounding of water through the torpdeo hole on the starboard side. This may have led to rupture of some internal bulkheads during the night.

40.  On the morning of June 6 the draft and list of the ship did not appear to be appreciably greater than on the evening of June 4. During the entire day of salvage operations the flooding in the ship did not increase, and the water on the third deck aft had been reduced three feet in depth. The list was reduced by 2° resulting in a list to port of 22° just before the ship was attacked by a submarine.

This also is not characteristic of a ship about to be lost. She took two torpedo hits and a bunch of bombs.. I'm not arguing that Hiryu's aviators weren't effective. I'm saying that Yorktown was lost because her captain abandoned ship immediately (not really a bad decision based on the rate of list) and then did not have a repair & salvage party ready the next day and ran into a Japanese submarine with a full load of torpedoes in her tubes. Going back to my original statement, ANY ONE of those variables not happening would have resulted in the ship being saved, at least long enough to run into I-168 or another submarine later.

Well, heck....based on that they should have court-martialed the Captain, I suppose---but no, he was promoted...in fact, did she really ever sink??? Conspiracy? Hmm...

Where's the Yorktown??? The world wonders...

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:07 PM

On 19 May 1998, the wreck of Yorktown was found and photographed by renowned oceanographer Dr. Robert D. Ballard, discoverer of the wrecks of the RMS Titanic, RMS Lusitania, HMHS Britannic, and the German battleship Bismarck. The remains of the Yorktown, 3 miles (5 km) beneath the surface, were surprisingly intact after having been on the sea bottom since 1942; much paint and equipment were still visible.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CV-5)#Honors_and_rediscovery

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:07 PM

No, she's fighting piracy off the Somali coast, crewed by 2,000 Elvis clones!

If you're a conspiracy fan you should read this.

It even lead to an official Navy response!

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 1:05 PM

Tracy White

No, she's fighting piracy off the Somali coast, crewed by 2,000 Elvis clones!

Chuckle...

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:34 PM

Even her TBDs could have a field day there...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Bloomsburg PA
Posted by Dr. Hu on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:15 PM

I recently read  a book entitled Midway Inquest by Dallas W. Isom. He is not a Naval Historian but a trila lawyer with an interest in the whole Midway operation. He approached the battle as an investigator intent on finding the cause of the Japanese Loss and the U S Victory. Since he had no Navy ties, he presents a balanced and thoughtful investigation. Well worth reading

 

Thanks to all in the forum for making it interesting

 

Jack

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:51 AM

jack jack

I recently read  a book entitled Midway Inquest by Dallas W. Isom. He is not a Naval Historian but a trila lawyer with an interest in the whole Midway operation. He approached the battle as an investigator intent on finding the cause of the Japanese Loss and the U S Victory. Since he had no Navy ties, he presents a balanced and thoughtful investigation. Well worth reading

 

Thanks to all in the forum for making it interesting

 

Jack

And what were his verdicts?

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