I want to build Hornblower's HMS Lydia

Here is the model I bought: http://www.revell.com/germany/ships/80-5413.html

But it has too many guns for a 33 gun British frigate.  " From mid-century, a new fifth-rate type was introduced - the classic frigate, with no gun ports on the lower deck, and the main battery of from 26 to 30 guns disposed solely on the upper deck, although smaller guns were mounted on the quarterdeck and forecastle."  Something like this: http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=5044

So what I want is on the order of 125 to 150 feet long. But the Ferdinand was 288 ft. Even though she looks a lot like the ship in Gregory Peck's 1951 film.

What do you suggest?

- Leelan

I'm afraid there's no plastic kit on the market that really comes close to looking like a British 32-gun frigate of 1808.  (For that matter the one in the old Gregory Peck movie didn't.  And as for the models used in the more recent Hornblower TV seried - forget 'em.)  About the only one that comes close is the old, old Airfix HMS Shannon, which is about six inches long - and I'd have no idea where to find one. 

One other faint possibility:  Pyro used to make a small model of the USS Constellation.  But that kit represents (not very well) the sloop-of-war built in the 1850s - not the frigate of 1797.

Then there's the old Lindberg French frigate La Flore, which has been reissued fairly recently under the nonsensical label "Jolly Roger."  But it's pretty conspicuously French in a lot of ways.

The unfortunate truth is that plastic kit manufacturers have never made a serious effort to cover the subject of sailing ships at all comprehensively.  The number of sailing ships that are represented by plastic kits is, compared to the potential subjects, miniscule.   

Yes. I have read several threads on this forum about the lack of good plastic ship models and the laziness of the model companies --- how they produce one kit and re-release it under different names with only minor (and incorrect ) changes.

So I should just go with the Ferdinand and do my best?

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The guns seem really small to me. Is this another inaccuracy? Given what I have read about other plastic model ship kits I am not too sure about the scale of this kit. How big was a gun port of this era? If I knew that I could measure the kit and nail down a scale for her instead of taking the manufacture's scale on faith.

- Leelan

BTW I know about Lindberg. Oy. I have their 72 scale WWII Japanese sub kit. HUGE. But so badly done that it is like building from scratch to fix her.

- Leelan

Fortunately, ship models are some of the most commonly scratch built models.  There are books on building scratch ship models, and several companies sell small parts that are difficult to scratch.  There are a couple of excellent sources of three view scale drawings of many, many warships.  Find a plan for a 32 gun frigate, buy a book on scratch ship building, and have at it.

You have your choice of a planked hull or a carved hull (bread and butter method). I am a big advocate of the later, especially for scratch building.

Loyalhanna Dockyard is a firm that handles the two best sources of scale ship drawings.

OK. The 32-pounder is the most common gun on a fifth rate. It would be 9.5 feet long and 1.75 diameter. That is more than I knew before. Now to figure out how big the gun ports were.

Don, thanks for your input. But I don't think I want to go that route. I may. But I know plastic and resin. I can work well with those. I have a huge stash of kits to get through before I die. I don't think I have time for a scratch-built wooden hull.

- Leelan

So. If anyone wants to chime in with the dimensions of a typical gun port, I am waiting.

- Leelan

Yes. I have read several threads on this forum about the lack of good ship builders and the laziness of the model builders who won't even think of building it themselves.

Seriously, LAZINESS?????? It's lazy to release a kit that so few people would want that it would put the company under?

I am not lazy. I have very few hours in which to indulge my hobby. I work six days a week, 9-10 hours a day with a commute of about an hour and a half one way. Semi-graveyard, if you must know. When my wife and I get home we have only a few hours to fit in supper before we have to go to bed and start over.

My one day off must often be spent doing yard work, car maintenance or what have you.

So I have to know what I can realistically do in what little free time I have. I know that if I start a wooden plank-on-frame scratch-build I might not live to finish it.

Any questions?

- Leelan

Otto Von Pivka, (Navies of the Napoleonic Era, David & Charles, London, 1980, No ISBN in book), has a chart on page 172 that indicates a 5th rate of 32 guns would be:

Dimensions: 37.8 meters long on the gun deck, beam 10.6 meters, and draught 4.5 meters

Armament: 26 x 12-pounders; 6 x 6-pounders; and 6 x 24-pounder carronades

Crew: About 300 plus marines

A table I found a few years ago indicates that a "Long" 12-pounder would be 12.75 feet in length and weigh about 4870 pounds (gun and carriage).

RN frigates in the Napoleonic era did not carry 32-pounders (except perhaps as carronades) - the largest frigate gun in Von Pivka's table is a 24-pounder carried by a 4th rate of 50 guns.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Dimensions: 37.8 meters long on the gun deck, beam 10.6 meters, and draught 4.5 meters

Dimensions: 124 feet long on the gun deck, beam 34.78 feet, and draught 14.76 feet.

Thanks, Mike!

Compromise would seem to be the word for my build. Since there is no perfect way to get what I want short of a complete scratch-build. I will just take the chicken #@!& that I've got and try to make chicken salad.

The gun deck is 25cm long and 6.3cm wide. To match Mike's proportions the model's deck would have to be 7cm wide. Not practical to change that. Using Mike's figures again, the length of the deck give the model a scale of 151. The width gives a scale of 168. If I average them I get a scale of nearly 160.

But, in that table I made there is a scale of 150. If I go with that then the deck is 31 feet wide. That is acceptable.

- Leelan

"a "Long" 12-pounder would be 12.75 feet in length"

The guns in the kit have a barrel length of 1.1cm. 12.75 feet is equal to 388.62cm. That means the gun barrels would need to be 2.6cm long. Hmmm . . .

- Leelan

The length of a long 12 pounder gun barrel from cascobal to muzzle face is more like 9' 8"

So that would be 75% of 2.6cm, 1.97cm.  I wonder. Can you get ship's cannon in 150 scale? I think 96 is the most common scale offered for ship fittings.

- Leelan

That is what dictates the scale I will build.  I always work in scales that offer lots of accessory items.  It can save a LOT of time.

The downside to working with pre-manufactured accessories is the overall cost.  That's why I always buy one of each and cast as many as needed (for my own personal use of course).  It can save a BUNCH of money.

I could try my hand at casting new cannon. It would be something new.

- Leelan

Assuming you are staying in plastic...try Lindbergh (I know,  I know) pirate ship Jolly Roger.   Frigate rigged with a nice sheer line and tumble home. I have built it as a RN frigate with ports open and guns run out.  Came out better than expected.   Your first five will not do. Do not know the Bon homme Richard kit but she was not a frigate.  The USS ships do not look like RN frigates at all.   If you go for a wood model,  several napoleon era frigates are available.  

I already have the Revell Ferdinand II il Gloria because it looked most like the ship I saw in Gregory Peck's movie. It also looks a great deal like the images of frigates I have seen online. There are a few differences but I think I could accomplish them by leaving off a few sails.

It was the Bon Homme Richard that started all of this. A friend on FaceBook built that kit and it looked so good that it got me thinking about the Lydia again.

I read a review of the Jolly Roger online. The reviewer said that the kit was so bad he wouldn't even build it.

-Leelan

Please check again.  32 pounders were never on a frigate.  Check your research.  Constitution had 24s with 32 pound carronades....not the same thing at all.  Even horn blowers sutherland only had 24s as per Forester.RN frigates traditionally had 18s.  Read Six Frigates.   It will help

Do you have a good image of a RN frigate you could share? I montaged the best I had and posted it earlier.

Here it is again:

The top two images are what came up in a search for "British 36 gun frigate".

The bottom left is the Revell Ferdinand kit that I have waiting to be kitbashed.

The bottom right is a screen capture from the 1951 Gregory Peck film.

- Leelan

Mike posted this earlier:

Otto Von Pivka, (Navies of the Napoleonic Era, David & Charles, London, 1980, No ISBN in book), has a chart on page 172 that indicates a 5th rate of 32 guns would be:

Dimensions: 37.8 meters long on the gun deck, beam 10.6 meters, and draught 4.5 meters

Armament: 26 x 12-pounders; 6 x 6-pounders; and 6 x 24-pounder carronades

Crew: About 300 plus marines

A table I found a few years ago indicates that a "Long" 12-pounder would be 12.75 feet in length and weigh about 4870 pounds (gun and carriage).

RN frigates in the Napoleonic era did not carry 32-pounders (except perhaps as carronades) - the largest frigate gun in Von Pivka's table is a 24-pounder carried by a 4th rate of 50 guns.

Hope this helps.

Mike

I do not know where I came up with 32 pounders. I have been doing a LOT of research. Too much at a time, I guess. I must have become confused.

- Leelan

Here's another possibility - assuming you don't care if your model is...well, a bit small:  http://www.skytrex.com/523/1700th-meridian-trafalgar-british/ .

Skytrex used to make a rather large series of Nelson-era ships on 1/700 scale.  I've got the Victory in my stash; it's really a remarkable kit - fully capable of being made into a serious scale model.  I think I'd replace the brass sails with paper ones, though.

Can you point me towards the review of Lindberg;s Jolly Roger that you mentioned?   It is not a bad kit, quite nice if you like French frigates.  It is not accurate for a pirate ship though.  

Here is a plan of a British frigate that might be of interest.

collections.rmg.co.uk/.../82350.html

Can't find that review. But I found this one: http://www.internetmodeler.com/artman/publish/flships/Lingberg-s-Jolly-Roger-Pirate-Ship.php

It's very positive. In fact it says that it was originally a model of the French frigate "La Flore".

It seems that several people have converted TJR into many fictional frigates including the HMS of Jack Aubrey fame and the HMS Undine of Captain Richard Bolitho.

Maybe I was too quick to accept one very negative review.

This looks much more like what I want:

I may have to buy one.

- Leelan

Here is the source of a lot of what I found: www.shipmodels.info/.../viewtopic.php

- Leelan