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Need to simulate a copper bottom in 130 scale ( and P.S. a rigging question as well)

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  • Member since
    September 2010
Need to simulate a copper bottom in 130 scale ( and P.S. a rigging question as well)
Posted by modelnut on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:52 PM

I have the Lindberg Jolly Roger or La Flore kit in 130 scale.

I want to convert her into Hornblower's Lydia of1808. In chapter XX "The Isle of Coiba", the Lydia is beached and several sheets of her copper bottom are repaired and replaced. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Happy_Return But the Lindberg kit calls for the bottom of the hull to be painted white. And the plastic reflects a bottom of wood unadorned by sheets of copper.

I have seen other builders use actual strips of copper tape to plate their model hulls. But does copper tape come in the correct size to plate a 130 scale hull?

And then there is the rigging. There is thread included in the kit. But I foresee making mistakes so I would like an extra supply to hand. "How to Build Plastic Ship Models" recommends coating the thread with beeswax and holding the thread over a candle flame until the wax melts into the thread. I can see the merits of this since the fine fuzz of the untreated thread would definitely be out of scale. But the thought of doing that inch-by-inch is not a pleasant one. Surely there is a better way.

What do you recommend? For the copper bottom? And the rigging thread?

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:09 PM

See? This is the uncoppered hull. (I found this image online to show here. Thank God for the internet.)

Here is the thread of a straight build http://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=28657.45 it's in German.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:38 PM

Putting a copper bottom (made of individual plates) on a model like this is a big, time-consuming job.  I'm not at all sure I'd recommend it for a first sailing ship project - and one that, by definition, is only going to produce an extremely approximate model of a ship (which, after all, didn't really exist).

If you want to try it, though, it can be done with thin sheets of copper, cemented into place with contact cement.  (I've got a model of H.M.S. Bounty, based on the hull of the ancient Revell kit, that I "coppered" this way about 35 years ago.  The cement seems as strong as ever. )  Sand off all the detail on the underwater hull, leaving a slightly rough surface.  Do some research on the proper pattern for the sheets.  (It isn't as simple as it looks.)  Cut the copper (I used .001" sheet, which was available in those days from Model Shipways; a modern source is any company that sells supplies for making stained glass windows) into appropriately-sized pieces, and go from there. 

Model Expo sells thin copper in rolls, with a pressure-sensitive adhesive on the back.  I used it once on a model with a cast resin hull, and was pleased with the results.  (It's lasted about ten years now, with no ill effects.)  The strips are far too wide, though, for the scale you're talking about.  If you want to do the job to scale, the plates will need to be about 1/16" wide and 1/8" long.  It takes a whole lot of plates like that to cover the hull of a ship like that.

An alternative that actually would look pretty good on a small-scale model like this, if done carefully, would be to sand the hull smooth and paint it to look like weathered copper.  Back in the days before plastic kits, modelers used to do that routinely on solid-hull models. 

Unsolicited suggestion:  Before you commit yourself to anything like this, think carefully about the nature of the project.  You're building a very approximate model of a ship that never existed.  (There's nothing wrong with that - but it surely doesn't call for the same approach that a superbly-detailed, hyper-accurate scratchbuilt model of a real ship would.)  If you try to fix every feature of that old kit that doesn't match reality, you'll end up almost building from scratch.  (I spent almost 1,000 hours on that Bounty model; in retrospect I might as well have built it from scratch.) 

The subject of rigging thread is complicated.  One suggestion that, I think, almost every serious scale ship modeler would agree with:  junk the thread that came with the kit.  Then you get into the problem of what you should use to replace it - a subject that's complicated and loaded with personal opinions.

In fifty-plus years of ship modeling it's never occurred to me to melt the beeswax (or parafin) on a rigging line.  Go to a sewing supply store and buy a little cake of beeswax inside a little clear plastic case, with slots in its sides.  Pull the thread through one of the slots and leave it at that.  (Or use a type of thread that doesn't need to be waxed.  That's another subject.)

In a recent thread another Forum member offered a newcomer to ship modeling a fine piece of advice that I rarely have the nerve to offer - but it's excellent advice for anybody branching out into a new form of modeling.  KISS - "Keep it simple, stupid."  I didn't say that, but it's a phrase worth contemplating.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:52 PM

Modelnut-

I've also read *how to build plastic ship models*, and I remember reading about melting the wax into the thread....while it seems like it would work well enough, I agree with Jtilley...just run your line through the beeswax puck, and call it good.

 I usually run a length of line through the wax, and then kind of pinch it and pull the line through my thumb and forefinger to embed the wax and also to remove any excess wax flakes...

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 6:40 PM

Model nut: she has a decent looking wood bottom and the effort involved to change it to copper will be out of proportion to the relative value of the rest of the kit, unless you are contemplating real wood decks, a whole better class of rigging accessories etc. Just painting it copper as John suggests (well, he went one further) would look just fine to all but the serious critic. John's added step to scrape the lines off will get a very good result. Lucky they are raised...

If you ever do copper the bottom of a plastic model, such as the big Heller Victory, Revell Constitution etc., try copper self adhesive tape. It's wonderful stuff and is available from the stained glass hobby people.

www.anythinginstainedglass.com/.../foil.html

It comes in 5/32" width I see there, which is biggish for your scale, but works great on the larger scales where a little overlap is desirable. The idea is to apply it and burnish it down so that the molded in detail telegraphs through. That's easy because the stuff is pretty thin.

As far as melting beeswax, never heard of that although that is WIW. Running thread through hard wax is the way to go, and goes as fast as you take to floss in the morning.

Don't buy thread from Joann's, Michaels, Target etc. It's designed to be extremely economical and be used by the mile.

I will add a rule of thumb, at the risk of repeating myself. Picked it up from an old forum friend who is no longer around here. When you factor in the hundreds, nay thousand or so hours a ship can claim, any use of all but the very best materials you can afford is a false economy. It's always tempting to make a shopping list of everything you want, all the lines, blocks, cannon barrels, eyelets, chain etc. and go to one of the good websites and spend a fortune. Been there, money not well spent. But at the rate it takes to build a model, it is better to buy the hull fittings and finish that. Then buy the rope and eyes for the gun deck, the cable and messenger, some gratings, and get that done. Then the weather deck with all of the obvious stuff. And so forth. I build a heck of a lot slower than FedEx delivers, so it works out just fine.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:53 AM

In addition to the stuff that model expo sells, Michaels craft stores sell a self-adhesive copper tape that can be cut into small pieces of whatever size you need.  Also, for plastic models, Testors makes a nice copper paint in their enamel line. I have used it on several models.  

As far as the rigging thread, just running it through the wax and running it between fingers does a pretty good job, without the heating. I would also try some monofilament nylon for the finest rigging areas, though the monofilament is very hard to work with when you need to tie knots. It acts more like fine wire than thread- very stiff!

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:24 PM

Thank you, everyone!

That's good to know.  I have seen those packages of beeswax. I probably have one somewhere. I used it in college for bow strings in archery.

I guess I will go for the copper paint. After sanding off the wooden planking detail of course. I think I have seen several rattle cans at Walmart. Hit it with a flat sealer and then do the patina as in the Plastic Ship Model book and it should be good to go.

Now. What are those fancy footings that one would mount the ship on a wooden plaque? I used to know the name of those things but I have had a looooong +12 hour day at work and I can't think straight. I think I remember someone using parts or finials for brass lamps. But I am not too sure.

What are they and where would I get a couple --- or four? Just in case I want to build another ship model after this one.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, October 18, 2012 7:15 PM

Leelan,

I am in agreement with the others when it comes to coppering the bottom.  I once had someone suggest cutting the self adhesive strips into plates and using a pouncing tool to simulate the nail heads.  That might or might not happen down the road but not for now.

If you are going to do the patina on the copper according to Les Wilkins, you will need to use Floquil Railroad colors.and not seal the copper before the antique white and light green.  Big Jake has a great tutorial on one the Cutty Sark threads that goes over a number of things on the big Revell built but he has had the same experience with patinaing if you do not use the Floquil paints as I had.  I'll see if I can find the link. Maybe some of the other guys have had good luck with using different materials but I did not. Also remember to use turpentine to blend the colors; a lacquer thinner would eat up or melt the plastic enough so that you can kiss that model goodbye, at least I had to.

I guess I will continue to be the odd ball here and say that I do run my thread over a candle flame a couple of times to inpregnate the line with the wax.  I know running it through your finger a couple of times will also get the wax to partial melt but I tend to be an over acheiver.  It also does not take a great amount of time to do.  I usually use Model Shipway, Amati and Corel line for my builds.  I have the "Jolly Roger" La Flore in my stash and it came with pink rigging line!  Needless to say I chucked it.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2012
Posted by dangerdan87 on Thursday, October 18, 2012 7:22 PM

I have heard of people using Krylon Metallic Copper spray paint for the copper panels. It makes it look more or less like a brand new ship.

I think I will give Alclad copper a try.

  • Member since
    May 2011
  • From: South Carolina
Posted by dullcote on Friday, October 19, 2012 6:58 AM

I normally use Testors copper spray paint  and apply it with 3-4 thin mist coats over a flat yellow or white base.  When thats cured out I "Dullcote" it and apply weathering powders to achieve the Patina we all desire.

The brand "powders" i now use are from  www. Bragdonent.com     set FF-162 works exceptionally well for ships of sail and steel warships of any period.

These powders are concentrated so use very sparingly,..its easy to over do it..but mistakes can be washed off.

When done seal the hull with a Matt varnish or a "Dullcote"

The Powders sets last a long long time.....and its applicable to more than just ships....give it a try.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Friday, October 19, 2012 9:00 AM

Regarding mounting on a wood base, those posts are frequently called stanchions.  Many of us have made them from lamp finials, but that takes a bit of machining to adapt the top of the finial to a hull.

For my more recent ships, I have used clear plastic (acrylic/plexiglas) rods.  I have bought several diameters of stock.  Larger diameter for larger models.  1/4 inch is a good medium size and that size is often available at hobby shops.  Larger than that and you have to order from plastic suppliers.  I drill a hole in the base equal to diameter of rod.  I also drill (carefully) a hole in the hull, and in a couple of small blocks of wood.  Stick the rods into the hull, glue block on inside end (inside hull) and glue the block to hull.  This reinforces rod to hull joint- don't just glue rod into plastic hull without reinforcement.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, October 19, 2012 12:38 PM

Don- I like that idea and am going to give it a try on my USCG Campbell. The hull is extremely narrow and it has a pretty sharp keel.

A word of warning. Drilling into a glued seam is risky business as I know well from modeling aircraft.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, October 19, 2012 10:58 PM

Model Expo ( www.modelexpo-online.com ) and Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com ) both sell nice turned brass mounting pedestals.

Two tips.  One - measure carefully before you order.  I honestly don't know about that old Lindberg La Flore kit, but in many ships of that period the keel was slightly deeper in the water at the stern than at the bow.  You want the waterline to be horizontal (and parallel with the base).  If the ship has a little drag to the keel, the forward pedestal will need to be a little taller than the aft one.

Two - there are plenty of good ways to mount the pedestals to the model, but all of them have one thing in common:  they need to be worked out carefully at the beginning of the building process.  You can, for instance, run bolts up through the keel.  In that case it would be a good idea to make the holes before assembling the hull halves.  (File vertical grooves in the hull halves; file a little at a time until the hole is just the right size.)  The bolts have to have something to thread into.  One approach is to epoxy (firmly) a pair of nuts inside the hull.  (Anything you can think of to lock the nuts firmly into place is a good idea.  If they come loose later you've got a problem.)  Or get a fairly heavy strip of brass and cut it to length to fit across the width of the hull directly over the pedestal hole.  Drill a hole in the brass strip and tap it to fit the bolt.  Or use wood screws.  If you go that route, cut a chunk of basswood or something similar (not balsa, please) to fit roughly inside the hull.  Glue the hull halves together, epoxy the wood into the hull, and drill holes up from the bottom to fit the screws.  (A good cma trick:  use fairly thin brass screws.  If the model turns out to be leaning just a little to port or starboard, bend the screws a little.) 

Pedestals aren't the only nice way to mount a model; if you look at photos on the web or in books you'll see plenty more.  This is one place where you can let your personal taste run amok.

My personal favorite woods for baseboards are walnut and cherry.  If you have a router, you can make a really nice baseboard by routing a decorative edge around a simple, rectangular board.  One of my favorite woodworking supply companies, Lee Valley, sells two sets of router bits that make unusually small decorative edges - just the thing for a model on a small scale.  ( http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30227&cat=1,46168,69435,46179&ap=1 or http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30226&cat=1,46168,69435,46179&ap=1 .)

If you don't have access to a router, you can just plane a simple chamfer on the edge of the board or round it over.  My favorite finishes for such things are tung oil, shellac, and old-fashioned polyurethane varnish (thinned and applied with a rag).

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Saturday, October 20, 2012 7:53 AM

One more thing, I will bet that the actual look of the copper plating used on real ships' bottoms wasn't that bright, freshly polished metal that is so prevalent in models, but a flat brown that turned that Statue of Liberty green patina in the long period of time it took to apply it to the hull. I would say that as it was applied the oxidation would start immediately,and the hands and fingers of the workers left tarnished marks. My wife has a copper mixing bowl that I, in my old Navy habits, try to keep polished. I use some really good copper polish (I have become quite the connoisseur of metal poliish) but that copper is a real PITA to keep bright. I know that the yardbirds of yore weren't down in that drydock polishing the hull to keep it looking pretty.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, October 20, 2012 9:18 AM

GMorrison

Don- I like that idea and am going to give it a try on my USCG Campbell. The hull is extremely narrow and it has a pretty sharp keel.

A word of warning. Drilling into a glued seam is risky business as I know well from modeling aircraft.

Indeed.  I start with a very small hole, then step up with multiple drills until I get to 1/8 inch.  Then I have a taper reamer that takes it from there up to the size of the rod.  Drilling the reinforcing wood blocks isn't a similar problem.  Or, if the existing mounting holes are already about 1/8 inch I can use the reamer from the start.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:22 PM

Subfixer,

That's a great idea. I could not find any bright metallic copper paint at Walmart today. All they had was dull beaten copper which is, as you said, a dull brown. I was going to try Lowes tomorrow. But maybe I will just go for that dull brown copper and dust it with white and green for patina.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    January 2012
  • From: Atlanta Metro, Georgia
Posted by fright on Saturday, December 10, 2016 1:08 PM

Dullcoat - thanks for posting this information. I just ordered the FF-162 set for my 1:96 Constitution. I previously used brushed on pastel shavings to slowly create my weathering on my 2 attempts and came out with good results. For me, I've not had as good results in my attempts at using washes. As far as using Testors Dullcoat, I love this product! It helps even out all of the paints, especially the colors that only come in gloss enamels. And like you pointed out - I plan on using sparingly. Thanks again!

Robert O

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, December 12, 2016 9:06 AM

I should have mentioned in an earlier post how I maintain hole spacing for the mounting.

I start by making a master jig from 3/4 square wood piece, and drill holes first in that.  Then I use that piece as a jig to drill holes in base(s) and in ship keel/bottom.

I often build two bases, one a working base so I can set the model down on my workbench when I need it. I also work on a final base, out of nice wood at my leisure throughout construction.  When build is in final stages (no more painting, sanding, etc.) I transfer the model from the working base to the final base.  Needless to say, I do not glue the stanchions to the working base when I use the plexiglas ones.

 

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

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