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Color of USS Arizona - Revisited

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  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Washington, DC
Posted by TomZ2 on Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:05 PM

This forum seems to breathes and eats controversy.

Tags: USS Arizona

Occasional factual, grammatical, or spelling variations are inherent to this thesis and should not be considered as defects, as they enhance the individuality and character of this document.

  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by tucchase on Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:34 PM

From Tracy White - "I have photos of the ships from different angles and different days, and what looks lighter in one photo doesn't in another. Photographic interpretation is going to remain a matter of opinion and fraught with misinterpretation."

That is why this particular photo may be so important.  It is a single picture with direct sunlight highlighting vertical surfaces that are showing as three distinct shades of grey.  And as such it is not subject to comparison with any other picture.  Plus, there are vertical surfaces in said sunlight, in each of the seperate shades of grey, that appear to be at, or very close to, the same angle to the sun.  There is very little that needs to be interpreted, and only three colors for vertical sufaces above the hull that were in actual use at this time.  Kind of narrows the possibilities a little.  Unless you consider that 5-O may have been in actual use prior to the attack.  I believe you have documentation that 5-O had already been authorized about a month before the attack for some uses, but is there any evidence that Pearl had any to use?  Wasn't 5-O to replace 5-L, and 5-N would be to replace 5-S?

I don't believe there is any other explanation for the variation of the three shades of grey in this photo.  But I am open to ideas if anyone has one that will not contradict the known, and deduced, facts of this photo.  Such as the angle of the sun as defined by the shadows.  Or that the Searchlight platform seems to be undamaged because the tripod poles immediately above it seem to be undamaged.  Also, this is not a color photo subject to any color shift, blue or otherwise, since there is no color in it.  Can B&W photos have "shade shift"?

As someone once said, "Sometimes a duck is just a duck!"

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:13 PM

As I've said here and on other boards, Ron Smith found a document that he read to me over the phone, but then when he turned copies of his research over to myself and John Snyder, neither of us could find it, so it remains in "hearsay" status.

This document, authored by CINCPAC Admiral Kimmel  referenced a shortage of paints and as a measure of stretching out stocks, sought to use a transitional measure. Battleships were to retain enough 5-D for one repaint of the hull (waterline up to the deck) and turn the rest in. Then *as needed* and *without need to report* they were to repaint areas of the superstructure in the new 5-S Sea Blue or 5-O Ocean Gray. This means that JUST a barbette could be repainted, or one side or bulkhead of a superstructure level.

My last two trips to NARA II in DC have set aside some time to try and relocate this document, but thus far I haven't been able to.

If this document exists it would essentially give modelers a lot more latitude to paint the ships, as one would need photos on any specific day to dispute accuracy. I have photos of the ships from different angles and different days, and what looks lighter in one photo doesn't in another. Photographic interpretation is going to remain a matter of opinion and fraught with misinterpretation. 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by tucchase on Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:20 PM

Yes, it was determined several years ago that all the BBs, and cruisers, had colored turret tops to match their own scout plane squadron.  This has been comfirmed by memos and pictures.  The picture above shows just the port edge of the top, and that only because the top was curved.  It does appear to be a fourth shade of grey which would be the red top.  It cannot be a shadow from the barrel above it because the angle of the sun is wrong for the barrel to cast a shadow on this part of Turret #4.  Note the shadow of the port range finder on both turrets.  Since the side of the turret below the range finder is vertical, and not slanted, for the barrel to make a shadow where this grey line is located, the shadow of the range finder would go all the way to the water.  This photo appears to be the only post-attack pic that shows any of the top of Turret #4 that is not washed out by glare, or of the turret after the top was removed to salvage the interior components.  There may be other better pics out there, but not on Navsource.  I keep hoping Steve Wiper will release his new book on the Arizona, but the other new book a year or so ago beat him to the punch and he is waiting for a better time to release his.  He told me at IPMS Nationals in Phoenix that he knows what color the Arizona was.  I hope that means it will be in his book.

I think it is interesting in this photo that the gun shields on the boat deck, while twisted somewhat, mostly appear to be the same shade of grey as the rear turrets.  Maybe they had been already painted 5-S?

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:25 AM

I remember an article in the Journal of the Ship Modeler's Guild about a year or so back on the Arizona.  I remember it discussed red paint on tops of turrets. I can't seem to find my issue at the moment, but it appeared to be a well-researched article.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    May 2008
Color of USS Arizona - Revisited
Posted by tucchase on Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:45 AM

I know many of you are tired of this discussion, but in light of the interview with Lauren Bruner a while back, some of the post-attack photos now seem to make more sense.  I recently went back to Navsource and looked more closely at the post-attack photos.  It struck me that there appeared to be too many shades of grey in them for them to be a two-color scheme.  There are several photos that seem to support the story by Mr. Bruner that the Arizona was in the middle of being repainted at the time of the attack.  This photo is the best of the bunch, with it being in overcast daylight, but most of the visible verticle surfaces at essentially the same angle to said sunlight.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013916b.jpg

It has been said that the Main Mast and rear of Turret #3 were engulfed in flames, and if you zoom in on this, and the other photos, you will see discoloration and bare metal in these locations.  But the Turret is only damaged on the rear 1/3 with the rest showing no damage at all.  In fact, the front 1/3 of Turret #3 looks exactly identical in color to the front of Turret #4, which by all accounts had no damage at all. 

On the Main Mast, the damage appears to extend only about 20 feet of so up each of the tripod poles and the boat cranes.  At the demarcation line for the 5-L paint above the Searchlight platform, visible almost perfectly right down to the platform, the 5-L paint appears to be completely undamaged, with virtually no soot from smoke.  One thing I noticed in all the pictures of the attack, both during and after, was that the wind was consistently blowing all smoke and flames toward the bow of the ship.  I attribute this apparent fact to why the Main Fighting Top is so clean.  Which leads to the obvious conclusion that the searchlight platform, and the Tripod poles immediately under it were also undamaged.  By no stretch of the imagination can I see any way for the SLP to have been damaged without charring the Tripods immediately above it.  Therefore, given how dark this area appears, it is to me reasonable that this area is indeed 5-D.  We know the area above this platform is 5-L.  Now, we look at the turrets and see that they are a third shade of grey.  Somewhere in between the other two shades.  This third shade of grey cannot be accounted for by shade from the sun, or any other way, because all the surfaces in question are obviously getting the same amount of sun.  You may say that the tripod poles under the platform are in shade, and I would agree with you.  But the edges of the platform are in the same sunlight as the Fighting Top and the turrets, and those edges are much darker than either of the other two surfaces.  Since there were only three actual probabilities for paint on these areas, it seems rather obvious that all three were in use at this time, including 5-S. 

Can anyone else come up with an explaination for three distinct shades in this photo, given the facts that this photo is showing?  Correct me if I am wrong, but any arguments about filters, film speed, developing processes, etc... would only be valid if this picture was being directly compared with another picture.  Since it is by itself, and it is B&W (no color shift), then these various arguments would not apply, right?

Is this a smoking gun?  Hiding under our noses all these years?  I will leave that for each of you to decide for your self.  For me, it definitely supports Mr. Bruner's interview.  What it doesn't tell us is whether the shields on the boat deck had been painted, or any of the superstructure and stack.  He said they weren't, and he didn't know about the shields because he was on the party scheduled to do the superstructure area.  Over on Ship Forums, ArizonaBB39 worked up a drawing of what this scheme might have looked like.  It is on, I think, page 68 or 69 of "At 'Em Arizona", Drawing #5.  It makes for an interesting look!  And it looks a lot like the photo above!

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