Lindberg Jolly Roger 1/130 by Brenticus

Oh and I finally found my instructions lol.

Thank you very much for offering to send me a replacement set, Charles. That was a mighty kind offer, and I really appreciate it.

Well, I have installed the shrouds/ratlines, and I think they look pretty decent (a lot better than the totally square ones from the 1/196 constitution that in picked up and never built anyway).





ANYONE BUILDING THIS KIT TAKE NOTE: However, the ratlines did not fit into the recesses in the boards, something Lindberg must have anticipated, as it suggested I cut them further open to fit right). The problem is, the boards were already installed, so I had to trim them while attached, a tricky practice at best. I knocked off a few rails and gunport lids in the process but eventually got them fit. I would recommend anyone building this kit widen the notches BEFORE installing the boards, and checking for fit.

There wasn't much room for the gunport lids so I had to move the "chains" around a bit. Furthermore, I didn't install them in the recommended way, which was inserting the lower ends into the holes in the side of the ship first, but the deadeyes seemed like they would be way too high above the boards, and it seemed too brittle to bend like that. So I just glued them on. The holes and results can be seen here:



It's not ideal, but it will do for this build. Personally, I think the chains look worse than the ratlines.

All in all though, I'm fairly pleased with the result, though the masts seem to have a slight take to them that I don't believe is correct for the period. The masts seem pretty well centered, I think (but am sadly ignorant of what is considered good or bad here), though the fighting tops aren't quite level :(



Next up, the stays.

Brenticus--

I have two sets of Jolly Roger instructions sitting around.  Let me know if you want me to scan and email your way.  Happy to do it.  Just send me a message with your email address, and I'll take care of it first thing Monday morning.

Charles

Oh and now I can't find my instructions! Hahaha!

I think you've made a wise decision. Rigging dead eyes and lanyards is one of the trickiest and, in the case of a good-sized ship, repetitive jobs in ship modeling. And it gets tougher as the scale gets smaller.

I assume you're talking about the Model Shipways Sultana kit. It's a fine one for breaking into wood sailing ship modeling. The scale is large, the rigging is relatively simple, and she makes a handsome model.

God luck.

Okay I rigged the first set of deadeyes...I'm not ready for that yet lol. Not at this scale lol.

I think I'll just stick with the shrouds that are supplied, unless they are super loose. Then I'll make my own and just glue on the crappy plastic ones.

I'll save the deadeye work for my Sultana build when I get that lol.

I might still do my own shrouds, but I'm done with these tiny deadeyes until I finish my 74 or do a wooden kit lol.

I'll look up the needle through the shrouds technique, I think.

I actually already have the deadeyes for the shrouds. I looked up the way to rig them and I think I can do it.

I'm going to put the deadeyes together, attach them to the boards, and run the rigging from there. Then I'll attach some thing that looks like chains underneath just for looks.

Unfortunately there just isn't any good, quick way to rig ratlines, especially on this tiny scale. If you do a Forum search on "ratlines" you should get several threads that explain the process. The fastest method that looks decent probably is the old "needle through the shroud" trick. Even it takes a long time.

One perfectly respectable solution is simply to omit the ratlines. If the rest of the rigging is well done, most people probably won't notice that the ratlines aren't there.

Good luck!

As I remember, the deadeyes/lanyards/shroud/ratline parts are molded in some sort of flexible plastic. (At least they were when I bought the original issue of the kit, longer ago than I like to think about.

I honestly don't know whether CA or any other adhesive would stick thread to that plastic. Maybe; I just don't know. Flexible plastics are notoriously hard to stick anything to.

In the photos, those "deadeyes" look mighty small. (The ones for the lower masts are almost certainly too small for the scale.) I'm wondering, though, if it might be possible to drill a hole immediately under the deadeye itself (through the "lanyards") and run the thread for the shroud through it. That way you could seize the shroud around the deadeye more-or-less as in the real ship.

Another approach your might consider is to buy some "deadeye combo units" from Bluejacket. They have the lanyards molded in, and holes drilled in the right places to attach the deadeyes to the channels and the shrouds to the deadeyes. Here's the link:  www.bluejacketinc.com/.../fittings6.htm

The alternative is to buy some genuine deadeyes and rig them the old-fashioned way. To be frank, I don't recommend that for a newcomer - especially one working to a deadline.

Quite a few people have used that old Lindberg La Flore kit as a basis for models of other ships. Given the small number of plastic sailing ships on the market, that makes sense. Unfortunately, though, it's a mighty old kit; it was close to state-of-the-art in the 1960s, but it's awfully crude by modern standards. And the scale is awfully small. As Brenticus is finding out, in sailing ship model the smaller the scale the more difficult the model is to rig.

Good luck.

Brenticus;

If you decide to use the kit deadeyes after all, just cut the shrouds from them as close to the deadeyes as you can get. Then just use CA to attach the new shrouds. I would recommend that you attach the deadeyes to the bulwarks before you attach the shrouds. You will also want to find some cordage that comes close to the width of the kit shrouds, especially since you already used the kit pieces for the top masts, otherwise I think it might look a bit too dissimilar. Looking forward to seeing what you do.

Actually, I think im going to use the tiny little wooden deadeyes I ordered for my (postponed) 74 build, and use those to make the shrouds.

I'll be in a better position to do it again when i finish my 74, and it'll look great. This will be a fun new technique.

Though I think I'm still going to stick with the simple rigging in the instructions. I don't think I want to start adding all of the blocks etc. just yet. I'll stick with the little rings from the kit I think...this time.

Wait, I don't see that the dead eyes are separate from the shrouds/ratlines. Am I correct or would i cut off the shrouds from the dead eyes? Here's a pic of the shrouds from the kit:



If I am to use the current deadeyes, how would I attach the new shrouds to the old deadeyes? Just use glue/CA, or perhaps drill a hole in them? What would you all recommend?

Well, you've sold me. I think I'll make some basic shrouds/ratlines myself. It's another skill I need to learn anyway, and my build can only benefit from it.

I'm sure a month is plenty of time for such a thing, right? I might try it with wires as Blue Ensign used in his outstanding Heller Le Superbe build (posted on a few different forums).

Any opinions on wire vs heavy thread?

The ratlines--the horizontal lines that the crew used to climb upwards--are less important than the shrouds, which are the vertical lines that proceed from the deadeyes to the crosstrees on the mast.  These lines definitely secure the port-to-starboard stability of the masts.

The plastic deadeye assemblies on the La Flore aren't half-bad, so I would consider using them as is, and then stringing heavy-ish black line from these deadeyes up to the mast.  From there, and at this scale, you can install the ratlines by simply dragging thin black thread thru some CA glue, and holding it in place horizontally until it grips.  When you're done, just snip off the excess on each side.

At least that's how I did it on my 1:196 Constitution, which was my very first ship model.  Take a look at the project log if it will help.  My own two cents is that you'll be happier with the model if you do the shrouds and ratlines yourself . . . it will take a little while, but it's something to be proud of.

Charles

Thanks for the advice sir, for this is 100% new territory for me.

This is a bit of a conundrum for me. The next step is the stays, I believe, but not the ratlines.

I'd like to keep the kit ratlines simply for speed, but I don't want the ship to look sloppy...

My question is this: of the ratlines work for now, and the rigging keeps the masts secure (first of all, would the stays keep the masts secure enough?), would I be able to add more correct ratlines later?

I'm guessing not because it sounds like they play too large of a role in steadying the masts athwartships, but I am not sure.

If the kit ratlines do not keep the masts steady, what method of rigging the ratlines would you suggest? I have read of a few different methods so I'm not asking for too many details (I'll look up whatever method you recommend, wouldn't knowingly ask you to cover material others have covered) but I wonder which method you think would be best, especially considering time. I've got about a month but I'm pretty new to it all.

Thanks again for the input, I really appreciate it.

There are several possible problems here. In the first place, I'm afraid you may find that the Lindberg shrouds and ratlines [later edit: my to-danged-smart phone changed "ratlines" to "draglines." I just caught it and fixed it on my Mac. Sorry about that.] just can't be made to look right. I've always thought those stretchy plastic things were an interesting idea, but it didn't catch on. I built La Flore and the Wappen Von Hamburg many years ago; I could never get the shrouds tight. (The rigging system depends on the shrouds being really tight.)

In a real ship the standing rigging gets set up first - starting with the lower masts and working up. The idea is that the standing rigging - the shrouds, stays, and backstage - make the masts rigid, so the running rigging won't pull them out of line.

I'm not saying that the standing rigging HAS to come first. But I'm not at all sure that setting up the running rigging first will actually make things easier - especially with bendy plastic spars and stretchy shrouds.

Figure out the way you think will work best, and give it a shot. In the worst case scenario, you'll get experience that will be valuable next time.

Good luck.

Then rigging first it is!

I know the Black Swan, in my opinion for me anyways, I'd like to run the running rigging first and not have to put up with going around the ratlines, there's enough in the way as is. :-(

Thanks!  

Ah, well I believe I'll follow your/ the instructions' advice and go ahead and rig the ship first.  

I forgot to say that I'd rig some, before I put all the ratlines on, my bad!

I'm building the Black Swan and looks like it would be easier to rig some of the rigging before you do more extensive rigging, but that's just my opinion. BTW, yours is looking awesome.

No, I'm going to use the kit's shrouds for time's sake (plus I think they look pretty decent for plastic...but I'm new lol).  I plan to learn that particular art either on my first build or on my Heller 74 (Le Superbe).

Strangely, the instructions do not indicate I should install the lower ratlines at this point.  In fact, it's on the last page of the book, I believe.  Strange, isn't it?  I figured it would be the first to go on...I'm suspicious about the sensibility of this order, but their rigging instructions seem pretty decent, so I'll go with what I'm given.  

The masts do fit very neatly/tightly, so that helps.

Nice work! Glad you are having fun w/ it.

Are you planning to forgo the kits lower shrouds and rig your own? Or is there some other reason you haven't added them yet?

Well, I've added the Main and Mizzen masts, etc.  Same issues with fitting, but this time I was ready, so it wasn't much of an issue.

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Next, I get to rig a ship for the first time!

Thanks!  I've seen your work, so I consider your words high praise.  That Surprise's stern gallery is really looking nice!  I wish I had the patience and expertise for such a thing, as the Surprise/Rose is doubtlessly my favorite frigate of all time (I wanted to sail her, but they don't really do that since the Maritime Museum and 20th Century Fox got a hold of them).  

I appreciate the input, and I look forward to watching the Dear Surprise build progress!

Looks to me like you're doing a fine job with a decent kit.  I'm currently in the process of converting this kit into a version of the HMS Surprise, as represented in the "Master and Commander" film.

You have a pretty steady hand for some of the detail painting, particularly on the transom and galleries.  Very nicely done!

So, I finished the foremast last night, as well as the bowsprit.  Both need some touch ups- pretty heavily in a couple of places.

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The masts fit so poorly, needed so much shaving down and cutting, they might as well be from another kit.  Honestly, these parts are a nightmare.

I had everything nice and painted (my mistake to not try and fit them beforehand), then I went to put it all together.  The top of the fore mainmast would NOT fit through the hole in the top, so I had to cut the top of the mast down...and down...and down again.  I probably cut about a fifth off of that mast around the top before it would fit properly.

Then I tried to fit the fore topmast.  Not much better.  It ended up getting stuck most of the way through, but just a little short- about 3/16 of an inch.  I'll have to fill it in with putty.  It's pretty well stuck not and weakened from the ordeal of getting in there at all.  But it seemed like it would fit.  Oh well.

Finally, the crosstrees where the ratlines (I'm using the standard ones, they don't seem too terrible compared to some) was really just a nightmare.  I was told to add the bottoms of the ratlines before fitting the crosstrees.  But if you do that, then there's NO room to get the ratlines far enough up to be locked into the piece before its fitted over the mast (which holds them in).  So I had to pull out my ratlines from the fighting top, get them to stay in the piece (a job under the best circumstances), all the while also trying to slide that piece back onto the topmast.  I fiddled with the thing so long, it became bent and weak with fatigue.

BUT.  I did eventually manage it. And I managed to get the ratlines back in place on the fighting tops.  I shaved down the topgallant mast (barely even tried without cutting) and fitted it.    Then, I dropped the whole thing into place.  Shockingly, the foremast itself fit perfectly into the hull, with no fuss whatsoever.

The bowsprit was fine, but their molded lashings around it won't work.  That's fine, they look terrible anyway.

WHEW.  One mast down, two to go.

Maybe the next two will be easier, but I'm not holding my breath lol.  

Learning a lot though.