Axis Carriers

Never the less the Japanese Navy gave a much better showing then the Germans.  

After Leyte, the IJN had Kongo, Haruna, Ise, Hyuga, Nagato, and Yamato. Haruna, Ise, and Hyuga died at their moorings unable to put to sea. Kongo was torpedoed and sunk by submarine. Yamato was destroyed on her mission to Okinawa.  Prior to Leyte, the IJN battleships had not accomplished anything. They themselves were largely out of the war from the beginning, except for Kongo, Kirishima, Haruna, and Hiei. These four were very involved in escorting the carriers.

In contrast, the Kriegsmarine capital ships were used fairly aggressively at the beginning of the war. The Graf Spee is well known for her cruise, as was Admiral Scheer, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Bismarck. Yes, the KM did lose ships due to its being the inferior force. After the Barents Sea episode, and after Hitler's scrapping order, Gneisenau was scrapped after being bombed extensively during her rebuild into a 15" gunned battlecruiser, Scharnhorst was lost in battle against a British capital ship and her escorts, Tirpitz was sunk while being a "fleet-in-being" while forward-deployed in Norway, Lutzow and Scheer were used against the Soviets in the Baltic.

In other words, there is a myth about the Kriegsmarine capital ships being out of the war that just simply doesn't stand scrutiny. They were aggressive from  the beginning of the war, but suffered from being too few ships being led by a landsman who did not understand how to use them. They, too, did not have air superiority, but they fought.

Bill Morrison

After Leyte they had nothing really left.  All fleet carriers destroyed, most of the major capitol ships and with their access to oil cutoff, what was left sat in Singapore or at Home for lack of oil.  

The real cause of their non-operations after the Battle of the Philippine Sea was the lack of air crews for their carriers.  Japan during the whole war never developed a replacement pilot training program like the allies had.  If they had the air crews and oil the navy would have fought right to the end and not hide out in Norway or the swamps of Poland.

Leyte occurred in mid-1944.  Until then, the IJN Battleships either sat at Truk, shuttled back and forth between Truk and Japan, stayed in the Sea of Japan, or sat at their moorings, except for the four Kongo class ships. After Leyte, they returned to this pattern of non-operations until Yamato sailed on Ten-Go.  Given the strength of Japans battle fleet, it was a terrible misuse of that national asset.

Bill Morrison

It almost worked, drawing Halsey away as they did.  Many thought he should have been court-martial for it.

The IJN's battle line went in to a suicidal operation in the series of battles in the Leyte campaign.  

Absolutely fascinating, thank you!

Actually, Lutzow and Admiral Scheer were used extensively against Soviet forces in the Baltic and on the ground, both being sunk in the last days of the war in Europe. Even after being sunk in shallow water, Lutzow served as an anti-aircraft platform until her ammunition was expended.  Scharnhorst was sunk while slugging it out with HMS Duke of York and her escorting cruisers and destroyers in December, 1943, while Tirpitz was extensively attacked throughout 1943 and 1944, finally being sunk in November, 1944. In comparison, the Japanese battleship force was little used, except for the Kongo class. The German capital ships were hardly out of the war.

Bill Morrison

They were out of the war, totally ineffective.  At least the Japanese capital ships went out with a fight.

All I could find out about potential tactics was that the GZ would operate in the open Atlantic escorted by cruisers. The cruisers would have to be the Admiral Hipper class CA, as the K-class, Leipzig, and Nuremberg were not the best sea boats.

I'm not sure what you mean. Bismarck of course was destroyed,

Never the less they were out of the war.  I would call that doomed.

Actually, the only capital ship to suffer was the bombed-out Gneisenau. Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Admiral Scheer and Lutzow were retained. The first three were forward deployed in Norway, Lutzow was deployed in the Baltic with Hipper and Prinz Eugen, and Scheer eventually joined them in the Baltic. Work continued slowly on Zeppelin, while conversion of the Heavy Cruiser Seydlitz into a second carrier was stopped.  The capital ships were not doomed.

Bill Morrison

JSC or Poland offers a very nice paper card model of the Graf Zeppelin in 1/400 scale. Simply reprint the kit at home using an ordinary computer printer, increasing the print to 114.2587% to print it in 1/350 scale. These paper card kits can turn into extremely nice models. The list price is currently 10.50 Euros.

Bill Morrison

When the Kriegsmarine failed to stop a Russia bound convoy only being escorted DD, DE and minesweepers, Reader resigned and Donitz was put in charged finally doomed the GZ and all capital ships.

 Yes, Plan Z for the rebuild of  Kriegsmarine included 4 carriers and 10 capital ships, among a host of lesser ships.  This plan though would not be complete until 1948.  With declarations of war in 1939, any thoughts of  of taking on the RN toe to toe were gone.  

The war industry switched gears and the plan was scrapped.   Hitler, though, still showed an interest in the carrier, while both Goering and Donitz opposed it, and both would do anything they could to delay it's construction.  Example, when Goering was asked to supply purpose built aircraft, he offered the 109 E-3 (which were already being phased out at the time), but stipulated they would not be available until 1944.

regards,

Jack

gmorrison  zee germans figured on their superior intelligence  and zee finest engineering     lol

I believe it was MPM that put out a kit of the BF-109T-1/2 but it was in 1/48 scale. I believe Hasegawa put out a 1/72 scale BF-109T.

GMorrison

You are right. I meant fleet carriers and I suppose you would include Princeton in that.

By late 1942 we had lost 4 fleet carriers, the Japanese had lost 4, the British had lost 5.

How are the Germans figuring to win the war with two?

naval history is not my strong point. But was not the Zeppelin all part of the grander plan to build a German navy that could rival the RN when the UK was expected to enter the war in 1946. In that context, I think it may make more sense. It does say in the article that Hitler was planning on 4 carriers and would explain why work on the carrier slowed after the UK had jumped the gun and came in early.

You are right. I meant fleet carriers and I suppose you would include Princeton in that.

By late 1942 we had lost 4 fleet carriers, the Japanese had lost 4, the British had lost 5.

How are the Germans figuring to win the war with two?

GMorrison

The USn lost carrier CV-8 as the last, but lost three before that.

No, we lost more after that. The last fleet carrier lost was Princeton CVL-23 in October of 1944, but we lost some CVEs in both the Pacific and Atlantic as well after we lost Hornet.

Thanks to the original poster and link, very interesting site.

It would of been curious to see what the Graf Zepplin would of done in the commerce raider roll.  I suspect though, that eventually it would  get cornered and clobbered like the other surface raiders.  As for Italy, they had fuel shortages at the onset of war.  I imagine any carriers completed would end up as dockside airstrips.

regards,

Jack

Ye, there are a couple of companies that have released 109T's, I have an MPM kit. A 72nd navalised Stuka, now that's another matter and is at the very top of my wish list.

I have a vague recollection that Lindberg, in its brief resurgence a few years back, was promoting a 1/350 Graf Zeppelin. (I don't think it ever got released.) And didn't one of the Eastern European companies have a 1/72 navalized BF-109, with an arrestor hook?

Fascinating pictures.

P.S. If you happened to read this post earlier, please forgive the numerous stupid typos in it. I typed it on my I-Phone, and my poor old eyes frequently don't see such idiocies. I've fixed it - on my nice desktop Mac. (At least I think I caught all of them.

It's all kind of silly though. The Italians would have been in a much better position to operate carriers as they had lots and lots of cruisers and destroyers to complete a task force.

But they didn't because in their theater of operation they had plenty of shore bases.

No way the Germans could operate a carrier force in the Atlantic. To do so requires air superiority.

The USn lost carrier CV-8 as the last, but lost three before that.

The USNI Proceedings had an article on GZ years ago. I read it once. Made a copy of it using a Xerox copier at the library.

Hmmmmmmm ---- a 1/32 Stuka with folding wings and a hook.  Wheels are turning and creating lots of ground plastic.........and a 109 with 6 foot bigger wingspan and a hook.

A 1/350 Zeppelin to escort the Bismarck, now that would be nice.

that's another one I'm surprised no one has jumped on yet,along with a German Raider in 1/350

lol, sorry, I didn't quite mean it like that. I just meant the aircraft, one of each Bf 109, Ju 87 and Fi 167 all on separate bases. But the image of those launch cradles does help, but also means I may have to revise a few things.

I would not mind a kit of the ship herself though, pity there is nothing bigger than that Revell kit.