A Tale of Two Ships .

 Tanker-Builder, that sounds like a fun idea.

 I have seen reports that the old Heller Roman Bireme kit is too short. The recommendations were to get two kits and combine them to make one Bireme of the proper length.

I happen to have 2 of the smaller Heller Bireme 1/225 scale versions to practice on and I think I would like to give it a try to turn these two "Biremes" into a Trireme or at least a Bireme of a proper length. Is this the type of "A Tale of Two Ships" you had in mind? 

There seems to be too many Ideas on the internet of what a Romen Bireme/Trireme looked like. I suspect I would need a bunch of reference material to figure Where to cut and mate the hulls for proper length plus Making a new deck (ie: should it be a solid deck or maybe a long opening in the center or??)  And, I could need 180 oars!  It will be awhile before I can try this but I sure would like to.

Thanks for posting the idea.  Jim.

Has anyone actually tried to make a Trireme or maybe a "better" Bireme out of the Imai:Academy-Minicraft-Aoshima-Modelist-BUM or Aurora or Heller Roman warship kits?  

Hi ;

   Well , I was waiting for someone to get in on this . I do modern ships , but I don't see a problem here . Now on that score the Old Aurora Viking is a simple one .

   Stretching it makes it more like the bigger ships used to go plundering . At least 40 plus the captain and navigator .

 The ship you chose could be done . A little more work but many of those had sixty oars to a side and the rest were the men with bows and boarding pikes .

     The biggest thing to remember if you add another deck is this .You need to figure the higher the deck , the longer the oars .    T.B.

Tanker - Builder

.You need to figure the higher the deck , the longer the oars .

There's some academic debate on that.  one school of thought is that the upper deck oars were out-riggered over the lower tiers, so that the oars could all be made to the same length.  (There being limits to just how long an oar can be handled by human hands.)

Where that school gets all snarky is on putting mutlple oarsmen on a single oar.  This, becasue it starts driving the hull dimensions.  Three hands per oar is six across.  But, it's the arc for the inboard end of the oar that gets tricky.  If we posit a 6'-0" oar with three men on it, and the middle one having a sweep of 30" (±15"), the outboard oarsmen only has ±13" and the inboard of ±26"--or a 54" swwep, which cannot be accomplished on a single seated position. 

If we presume slaves chained to benches, then inboad might sweep 30"; middle only 12", and outboard a rather pointless 6"  Which suggests that hte banked roaman ships had either one man or at most two men per oar.  Or, so goes the academis debate.

Ah Capn Mac ;

 You could be very right .I never really got into that debate .I do know on some Drawings found the ships had Porches .I.E. Maybe outriggers off the main hull . T.B.

2nd century BC warship with outrigger:

CapnMac82

Where that school gets all snarky is on putting mutlple oarsmen on a single oar.  This, becasue it starts driving the hull dimensions.  Three hands per oar is six across.  But, it's the arc for the inboard end of the oar that gets tricky.  If we posit a 6'-0" oar with three men on it, and the middle one having a sweep of 30" (±15"), the outboard oarsmen only has ±13" and the inboard of ±26"--or a 54" swwep, which cannot be accomplished on a single seated position.  

We know that the last galleys, ca 1700, definitely had preposterous numbers of men per oar, up to seven on the flagship galleys such as the French "La Reale". It has also been calculated that probably the sixth and certainly the seventh man added to an oar was a dead loss when you consider the extra propulsive power he brought to the party in relation to the extra weight of his body and his water and food supplies! 

Yes, yes, they were rowed a scaloccio, single-banked and multi-manned oars, a very different oar arrangement than the classical multiremes, but even so, the mechanics of an individual oar are much the same. Only one guy can possibly row with optimal performance, all the others are in some way output-limited by inefficient ergonomy. And it gets worse for each extra rower you add to an oar.

The guys at the inboards positions had to row standing up, kicking off against the bench in front of them. The only way to get a long enough pull, and to reach high enough to grasp the end of the oar. Hard to see this being practical on a multi-banked galley.

The Greek Navy's trireme "Olympias" has oars all of the same length, does she not? She only has one man per oar, of course.

Hi, I am currently working on the Academy Roman galley kit @1/72, I am assuming the old Aurora molds. I am converting it to an early simple Greek galley using only one bank of oars as they only supplied 26 oars in the kit.

With the kit in front of me I don't know if two kits can be joined to make a longer model due to the curve amidships stated earlier.  Possibly three kits can be joined to minimize the bowing effect.  That would also require a lot of sanding to remove the strakes under the galley unless one makes a waterline model. One would welcome all those extra oars. I cheated in my frist build of the Aurora kit by using skewers.  I placed the skewers in such a way as it apperared as the oars were submerged in the water.  I placed the second original set above and cut the blades on an angle to apper as they were partly in the water. 

I know this thread is about joining two kits but I though that I would throw this in. I wonder if it is necessary to stretch the kit at all to replicate a bireme.

The kit states that it is a bireme even though they only supply one set of oars. Two rowers can occupy the same bench so logically if we found another set of oars we could mount them and call it a bireme.  I have purchased a few boxes of the Orion Roman rowers to populate the kits and it apperas to work.

In doing some very quick research I am not finding too much on actual measurements of Roman galleys. Bjorn Landstrom also states many things about Roman galleys but again with no fine measurements. He provides the following about Greek galleys, Greek biremes were 65 feet long, 8 feeet wide and had 56 oars.  Later they became up to 80 feet long  and 10 feet wide but with only 50 oars.  During these eras technology did not change as fast as our last century so I hope that one can make some assumptions that the Roman galleys could be similar.

If that is the case the Academy galley measures from stem to ram almost 14 inches,  1 1/2 wide on deck, pushing it to 3 inches with the outriggers. At 1/72 if you scale out 65 feet it measures 10.83 and 80 feet becomes 13.33. 10 feet becomes 1.66 inches. Pretty darn close to Bjorn's numbers.

If we try to model a trireme all bets are off on measurements. Will really have to hit the books on that. I am unsure if the galleys were as luxurious as portrayed in Ben Hur but definetly more space is required than provided in the Academy kit. So even with two or three kits to make a longer trieme, I see a great difficulty in providing the room for a third oar per side and of course our good friends, Mr. Oversearer with his sidekick the Mr. Tom Tom player.  Not to forget the ski instructor on weekends.

Tanker-Builder,Capnmac,and Staale S

     Multiple Rowers per oar requires a lot more investigation and interpretation.  I decide on a single-man-per-Oar otherwise I figured I’d need a wider Hull. Thanks for the Math and the “Standing room only” observation. Jim

Yeah ;

 I saw one movie and the main guy ( Charleton Heston ) Was on the top row and had an oar all to himself .But you know Hollywood .

Heston was way too tall to fit in there. No doubt they had to do a big refit for the Star. Raise that top deck 5 inches and there goes your Center of Gravity- Vasa all over again LOL.

Thought it would be a good idea to try to Post Pics of what I discussed so far...

(1st try using Flickr)

The box above, the Two Ships below.

1st Cut based on compromise of estimated length needed and Hull curvature:

2nd cut to match up the two ships into a decent "Tale":

Alingment with spare sprue:

Initial fit ( not good- needs some realignment and sanding.):

After fixing  A bit better.   OA Length at 7" ( ~131 feet at 1/225)  

Temp fit of a possible lower deck:

Next Post will be awhile as I am Waitin' On The Man to deliver some books!

Oho !

 I like it ! More , More ! Please ?  T.B.

     I received The Age of the Galley- Conway's History of the Ship.   Started reading and now it's Information Overload.  My ideas for the deck and Outrigger could need to be changed. The Hull below the waterline on the kit(s) is also probably wrong. However, I do not plan to change the hull.

Note: Yesterday I bought another Heller Roman Bireme Imperator in 1/225... In case I need the oars.

     Jim.

Sorry for the delay to update this "two-ship" tale. I have been a bit preocupied with Taxes and Family issues.

     The Reference material helped but I am still left with my vison of what this model should look like. ( It'll never be a replica- but will be fun).

Some pictures of my paper and plastic test deck(s):   Center Gangway, a Double Gangway (will require a re-thinking of the Scale), and a Fully covered deck. 

On the open decks I plan to included a "bridge" to facilitate movement of Marines.  

   The overhang of the paper deck over the hull/outrigger  was my interpetaion of Fabric/Leather coverings to protect the top tier rowers but still allow some air.  Close-up below:

My last Pic as I contemplate my next move :

Note that one of the 2 "Tents" is a Straw.  Guess from where.

I did not let the left over Bow and Stern go to waste.  The perfect pieces to practice on. Popcicle-stick deck, left-over plastic hull, a bunch of Bondo and...an instant Roman Liburna-maybe.

I am leaning toward an Open gangway down the center. The lower deck and supports are temporary- used for height adjustment.

I think My Castle may be too small for the intended scale. I made a larger one:

The small upright piece at the stern is a Platform from which the "Fearless Leader" can stand and oversee the ship and be somewhat protected from "Pointed Sticks".       So now, "...I have a Plan"...  :

             I will probably not keep the platform as I can't find references to one. And, I couldn't help the Rocky and Bullwinkle, Monty Python, and Dr. Strangelove tribute.
     

      Jim.

Some Parts and Ideas.

     Just back to my Trireme today. Only had time for some primer.

    The ideas I followed through with... a larger Castle, a captains chair and tent.  The red paper was intended to be a Cover to semi-protect the rowers. I still need supports under the Cover. A few oars were temp glued with Elmers so I could figure out spacing etc.  ( I know the angles are wrong and the middle tier are too long.

     Please remember this is a Test to figure out how to do the larger Heller 1/75 Bireme into a Trireme using Two Ships.

... And 1 more pic...  with some parts in place

Can you say ?

"  Look at that ship "! No , You'll frighten the Hades out of the town . Now put those arms away . " Yikes . Can you imagine that thing coming out of the fog for a ram and fight ? Very impressive . T.B.

Thanks T.B. And thanks again for all you do on the Forums. I appreciate your efforts/ideas to keep members posting.

     So, I did not plan to make this a finished product nor a WIP but just my limited effort to make 1 ship outta 2. If this small effort works a WIP would be for the Heller 1/75 Bireme Imperator .

    I am unskilled in Scratch building and I would not have attempted this effort except for your initial Posting and contribution(s) to FSM.

          Jim ( Nino, the Mind Boggler)

Yes ;

  The thing is , you had the courage to try . This sets you apart . Just ask any of the other members . You have to take that first step .

 You did , and I for one , am proud of your efforts . I remember way back when about 60 years ago I wanted to do a New York Harbor Ferry . I only had one picture and a slightly damaged Mississippi River steamer " The Natchez "

 Using cardboard and clear-coated paper I made the conversion and enjoyed looking at that big orange boat , until about ten years later it got lost ? in a move . The nice thing is we had PACTRA paints back then .

   They had a clear,  and it did as advertised " No Brush Marks " Keep on modeling ,  and good luck on the finishing . Tanker - Builder   P.S. I am ready for your WIP on the " Imperator ". 

An update, of sorts...

    I have been doing a bit of extra reading which has delayed my build.

Some very worthwhile research materials:

Some details I am considering:

2 side keels (for hauling up onto the beach on rollers).   2 large ropes streched bow to stern to prevent hogging.    A lowered mast resting on the rear deck.   2 piece yard rather then 1 continuous piece.

 I have found the two model kits I started with were very fragile as in brittle.  I have cracked the hull in several places while clamping to glue and handling to sand.

I managed to pick up a few newer versions of the kit with much improved plastic, although in an orange hue.  These will be needed for additional oars.

         Jim.

Hi;

 On the aspect of brittle plastic . I have had that problem with Some Airfix Schnell-Boot models . The plastic has turned an orange grey and was as brittle as the candy of the same name .

     What I did was use very weak clothes pins ( the spring type ) and lotsa tape ! Shoot , you'll do alright .  T.B.

Happy Fathers Day to all you Pops!.

I got permission to skip working on the Wife's patio and do some painting on the Trireme hull and maybe add a few details to see what's worthwile to try on the 1/75 Heller Bireme.  I will be adding some thick rope/cable just under the deck to prevent Hogging. It might not be seen at this scale but would on the larger scale kits.

  Picture :

Well,  Pictures will not be forthcoming. Photobucket has now required an actual plan in order for 3rd party hosting.  The required plan is $399.99 per year... Once I find another cheap hosting site, I will continue this project.

On a very Negative note...

 I have noticed a hugh amount of pictures of Builds and Reviews now have no pictures with them. 

On a positive note ... maybe I can put in a URL link and Fourm members can go to a Photobucket page to see the pics.  I will investigae.

    Jim.

A quick test..

 I added a temp cover for the outrigger with some supports and if you look at the center passageway you can see one of my "cables" to prevent Hogging... That is, if the link below works.

http://s32.photobucket.com/user/JMargerum/media/DSCN0173_zpseavyuew4.jpg.html?sort=2&o=19

Once I enter this Reply I will try the link and edit this post.

Edit:  The link worked for me. Took me to my photobucket page.  Guess someone else should also try to make sure this Poor work-around will work.

RE_EDIT...  Using Flickr:

Please dont use photo bucket any more. The link only works for you because you posted it 

We all still see the photobucket ransom note.

Thanks littletimmy.

My test using Flickr:

 I went back and did some editing. I used Flickr.

The Flickr site took a bit of getting used to. So far things look okay.

Still getting used to Flickr.

 Did a few update/Tests for painting and oar placement. Nothing big. I am still new at this.

Some corrections to my Anti-hogging ...

Oar placement tests:

Additional pics.  I had to make sure the amount of oars I estimated (65 per side) would fit.  I might have to remove the oars from their "Tree" and drill hoiles to place them individually. It will look alot better and I would do it this way on the 1/75 scale kit.

 Sorry to be so slow on build.  I found myself getting distracted with Vikings and Barbary Pirates (Courtesy of Glencoe and Pyro).

Last pic for awhile... a bit Out of focus 'cause my batteries died and I did not reshoot.

I will be switching from this old AA Battery (Muzzle-loading)Nikon Coolpix to a newer rechageable Battery (breech-loading) Canon.

Modern replica of the Athenian galley OLYMPIAS, seen on sea trials on July 2016. This galley can be seen on video on You Tube in actual motion. Thus, the correct seating arrangement of the volunteer rowers can be clearly observed. When the rowers put their muscle to the oars, the galley can really put on some speed.

Happy modeling     

Hey !

 Can you thin down the oars a little ? Looking Good .